How Can You Have Any Belief A Divine Connection to the Vatican?

[MSizer]

I don't understand this line of thinking. Catholics make petitionary prayers all of the time. Therefore, it is presumable that these people believe God has the power to affect the world. How is it that God would allow someone tainted with a shady history in (allegedly) hiding sexual predation on children, to represent him on the earth?

It completely undermines the credibility entirely IMO of the claim that the Vatican has any Divine connection at all.

Yes/No? I believe so. (of course I am an atheist, so I already believed that, but this is a strong blow to the idea IMO)

 

[Scott1]

I don't understand this line of thinking. Catholics make petitionary prayers all of the time. Therefore, it is presumable that these people believe God has the power to affect the world. How is it that God would allow someone tainted with a shady history in (allegedly) hiding sexual predation on children, to represent him on the earth?

You're actually asking more than one question.... petitionary prayers don't have anything to do with the Vatican.
I pray all the time, and that has nothing to do with the Vatican... so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Catholics understand that people are sinners and we all fall short of God... not many people are ignorant enough to assume that mortal beings, even those in the Vatican, will be perfect.

It completely undermines the credibility entirely IMO of the claim that the Vatican has any Divine connection at all.

The Vatican has no more "Divine connection" than I do.... not sure what your point is.

 

[no-body]

If your religion tells you wholeheartedly that someone who has studied God is qualified to know God, then you are going to believe it. It's human nature to believe others know more than you. Like the Dali Lama is viewed in Tibetan Buddhism. If you go deeper you see there is nothing spiritual about it.

I think you are wanting to delve not into petitionary prayer but papal infallibility, but even that doesn't say that the pope is free of sin.

 

[MSizer]

You're actually asking more than one question.... petitionary prayers don't have anything to do with the Vatican.
I pray all the time, and that has nothing to do with the Vatican... so I'm not sure what you are getting at...

The reason I bring up petitionary prayers is that it sets the stage for showing that people believe god has the power to intervene in the world.

Catholics understand that people are sinners and we all fall short of God... not many people are ignorant enough to assume that mortal beings, even those in the Vatican, will be perfect.

The Vatican has no more "Divine connection" than I do.... not sure what your point is.

Right, I know that. I was raised catholic. I never understood how the point of clergy at all. If they're as fallible as anyone else, then why have them? The pope is believed once a year to sit in a tower and literally be the conduit of the words of god. Why would god do it once a year, but most of the time let the pope sin just as everyone else does. That's what makes it utterly unteneble IMO.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Intellectual reasoning isn't a relevant factor regarding peoples' faith-based beliefs.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The reason I bring up petitionary prayers is that it sets the stage for showing that people believe god has the power to intervene in the world.



Right, I know that. I was raised catholic. I never understood how the point of clergy at all. If they're as fallible as anyone else, then why have them? The pope is believed once a year to sit in a tower and literally be the conduit of the words of god. Why would god do it once a year, but most of the time let the pope sin just as everyone else does. That's what makes it utterly unteneble IMO.

The clergy are the reason there is organized religion in the first place. A couple guys that were smarter than the average people way back when decided to organize and profit off of the naivite of the people. Now they rake in billions of dollars of tax-free money a year and have the world hanging on their every word.

 

[sojourner]

If your religion tells you wholeheartedly that someone who has studied God is qualified to know God, then you are going to believe it. It's human nature to believe others know more than you. Like the Dali Lama is viewed in Tibetan Buddhism. If you go deeper you see there is nothing spiritual about it.

I think you are wanting to delve not into petitionary prayer but papal infallibility, but even that doesn't say that the pope is free of sin.

The Pope isn't the Pope because "he knows more and is more qualified." The Pope is the Pope because the Church discerned God's call to him to serve that office.

 

[sojourner]

I don't understand this line of thinking. Catholics make petitionary prayers all of the time. Therefore, it is presumable that these people believe God has the power to affect the world. How is it that God would allow someone tainted with a shady history in (allegedly) hiding sexual predation on children, to represent him on the earth?

It completely undermines the credibility entirely IMO of the claim that the Vatican has any Divine connection at all.

Yes/No? I believe so. (of course I am an atheist, so I already believed that, but this is a strong blow to the idea IMO)

God allowed a sinner to bear the human race. God allowed a murderer to lead God's people out of bondage. God used a prostitute to save the Hebrew soldiers. God allowed a liar, a thief and a trickster to be the foundation for the Hebrew nation. God made an adulterer the greatest leader Israel ever had. All according to the Bible. Why should the Pope be any different.

Being holy has nothing to do with piety. It has everything to do with being set apart for ministry.

 

[sojourner]

The clergy are the reason there is organized religion in the first place.

Are they?

 

[no-body]

The Pope isn't the Pope because "he knows more and is more qualified." The Pope is the Pope because the Church discerned God's call to him to serve that office.

Who gave the church the power and qualifications to determine the popes call to God?

God allowed a sinner to bear the human race. God allowed a murderer to lead God's people out of bondage. God used a prostitute to save the Hebrew soldiers. God allowed a liar, a thief and a trickster to be the foundation for the Hebrew nation. God made an adulterer the greatest leader Israel ever had. All according to the Bible. Why should the Pope be any different.

Being holy has nothing to do with piety. It has everything to do with being set apart for ministry.

This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read.

 

[sojourner]

I never understood how the point of clergy at all. If they're as fallible as anyone else, then why have them?

the Church is an organic entity, each human part as fallible as the next. Laity are fallible, too. Why have them? The Church is a human entity (in part). How, then, can one expect the Church to be any less (or more) than human?

 

[sojourner]

Who gave the church the power and qualifications to determine the popes call to God?

Christ, who is the Head of the Church.

This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read.

What is? That God calls ordinary human beings to do God's work? That God's work gets done by the least among us? Who else would do that work? Whom should God call? I don't see why that should disturb you so much.

 

[no-body]

Christ, who is the Head of the Church

What is? That God calls ordinary human beings to do God's work? That God's work gets done by the least among us? Who else would do that work? Whom should God call? I don't see why that should disturb you so much.

If the Church is fallible why should anyone trust it over themselves? What I find disturbing is the apologetics towards baby rapers.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The only real purpose of the organized church is profit. The clergy rake in billions of dollars a year and don't pay any taxes. It's easy to get the money pouring in when you have people convinced you're doing "God's work."

 

[sojourner]

If the Church is fallible why should anyone trust it over themselves? What I find disturbing is the apologetics towards baby rapers.

I don't think we should do that. Not sure what you mean with your last sentence. My advocacy of a Church full of fallible human beings in no way makes an apology for crimes committed by its members. They should be held accountable.

 

[sojourner]

The only real purpose of the organized church is profit. The clergy rake in billions of dollars a year and don't pay any taxes. It's easy to get the money pouring in when you have people convinced you're doing "God's work."

Yeah. There are a whole lot of priests out there wearing Armani and driving Lamborghinis, and living in summer homes in Monaco.

The only real purpose of the organized church is prophet.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

There is a pope living in a giant castle with gold and jewels everywhere his eyes can see. All paid for out of the peoples' pockets, most of them with barely enough money to support themselves. And I'm not only addressing priests, but religious leaders of all kinds. I know plenty of Reverends with Cadillacs, Bentleys, you name it.

 

[no-body]

I don't think we should do that.

Why? What makes the Church so special if they are as fallible as anyone else? Sounds like it boils down to faith. I guess if you are willing to put your trust to the people that covered up and excused child rape, you must have it in spades.

Not sure what you mean with your last sentence. My advocacy of a Church full of fallible human beings in no way makes an apology for crimes committed by its members. They should be held accountable.

Agreed and so should the pope and everyone else who covered up the kiddy diddling. They are just as bad if not worse than the offenders.

 

[sojourner]

There is a pope living in a giant castle with gold and jewels everywhere his eyes can see. All paid for out of the peoples' pockets, most of them with barely enough money to support themselves. And I'm not only addressing priests, but religious leaders of all kinds. I know plenty of Reverends with Cadillacs, Bentleys, you name it.

I know a lot of bankers, merchants, lawyers and doctors who live in the same way, mostly paid for out of the pockets of people who can barely scrape by. I'd be willing to bet that the ratio of rich clergy to rich doctors (who profit from humanity's suffering) is pretty darn low.

 

[sojourner]

Why? What makes the Church so special if they are as fallible as anyone else?

The Church is the Body of Christ. That creates a fundamental difference. Even so, lots of church members should not be blindly trusted.

I guess if you are willing to put your trust to the people that covered up and excused child rape, you must have it in spades.

I'm not willing to trust them.