How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

[Subduction Zone]

When/where has @Subduction Zone said your God lies?
I have not seen them tell anyone that their god is a liar.

They have stated, and rightfully so, that many a theists call their own god a liar.

Creationists can never understand that they are the ones that claim that their God is liar. They do not want to face that fact. If God is omnipotent then of course he could have started life as the Bible story says. The problem with that is that all, I mean absolutely all of the scientific evidence tells us that the myths of Genesis did not happen. The only conceivable way that all of the evidence tells one story and the Bible tells another and for the Bible to be accurate would be for God to have lied by planting endless false evidence, not only in the fossil record but even in our DNA, that Genesis is wrong. Could an all powerful God do that? Yes, by definition an all powerful God could plant endless false evidence. The problem is that planting false evidence is a form of lyng.

Another way of putting it is: If God cannot lie then the stories of Genesis are mythical. Claiming that the myths of Genesis are true is a claim that God is a liar.

I never believed that God is a liar. Creationists regularly claim that he is one.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not afraid to learn. But when and if I have a question of you and some others here I am often reviled and so this is not a way to learn for me. If you deny that, again -- there is nothing to discuss about these things, in this instance between you and me.

You are only "reviled" when you go back on your word. If you can reason rationally and consistently without fear you will not be "reviled'. You should understand that bad behavior has repercussions.

I believe again here you are making a false accusation of me as if I am telling God what to believe or do. And since you keep saying that my God lies, there is really nothing to discuss between the two of us about these things. Just as evolutionists' cannot explain everything, neither can I explain everything in the Bible. Maybe one day, but not now. Have a good one and be well.

But you are telling God how he had to make life and the Earth. That you do not understand how you are doing this does not mean that you are not guilty of that. You should be asking how you do that. The Earth and life tell us through scientific evidence how the Earth was made. It tells us what happened to the Earth over the ages. The evidence from the Earth and life tells us how life go to its present state. If God made the Earth that is God telling us how he did it.

And I have never said that God lies. It is you and other creationists that claim that God lies by the error of saying that the myths of Genesis are literally true when the Earth, which you believe to be God's creation tells us the opposite. If God made the Earth then the evidence that it gives us is from God. What it tells us is very clear.

As I said above, if God cannot lie then the myths of Genesis cannot be true. God's own work tells us that the myths of Genesis are not literally true.

So is God responsible for making the Earth and life? Can God lie? Answer those two questions and I can tell you what they imply.

That we can test evolution and see that it happened does not refute God. It only refutes incorrect versions of God. The Bible also states again and again in various different ways that the Earth is flat. Does a globe Earth refute God?

 

[YoursTrue]

Creationists can never understand that they are the ones that claim that their God is liar. They do not want to face that fact. If God is omnipotent then of course he could have started life as the Bible story says. The problem with that is that all, I mean absolutely all of the scientific evidence tells us that the myths of Genesis did not happen. The only conceivable way that all of the evidence tells one story and the Bible tells another and for the Bible to be accurate would be for God to have lied by planting endless false evidence, not only in the fossil record but even in our DNA, that Genesis is wrong. Could an all powerful God do that? Yes, by definition an all powerful God could plant endless false evidence. The problem is that planting false evidence is a form of lyng.

Another way of putting it is: If God cannot lie then the stories of Genesis are mythical. Claiming that the myths of Genesis are true is a claim that God is a liar.

I never believed that God is a liar. Creationists regularly claim that he is one.

You never believed that God is a liar when you believed in God I suppose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You never believed that God is a liar when you believed in God I suppose.

No, I used to be a Christian. Some stories of the Bible I never took too seriously and had no problem accepting the sciences. The churches that I belonged to were not rabid deniers of science so the myths were never emphasized there. The need to claim that God was a liar never arose.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I used to be a Christian.

Thank you for confirming that.

Some stories of the Bible I never took too seriously and had no problem accepting the sciences. The churches that I belonged to were not rabid deniers of science so the myths were never emphasized there. The need to claim that God was a liar never arose.

Obviously there are some here who claim to believe in God or are members of a religion and believed like you did, I.e., that many accounts in the Bible are mythical rather than reality. In fact some are v-e-r-y reluctant to explain why they believe in God. But anyway, thanks for your comment.

 

[Sargonski]

The Pentateuch represents narratives written log after the events recorded supposedly took place. The fact that there is evidence of some some events and possibly persons does not negate the fact that most of the Pentateuch is grounded in legend and mythology and not a factual history

King Omri was a king in the 8th century BCE

Yes there was a Battle recorded at the time by the Moabites that defeated Israel.

Individual facts in the Pentateuch fo not justify the accuracy of the historical narratives.

Evidence for the Tygris Euphrates flood is NOT evidence for the Great Noah Flood believed by Christians for thousands of years, nor is there any evidence for the existence of Noah, Moses or Jacob,

Dude .. never said anything about noah .. moses . jacob -- so why do you continue to pretend otherwise ..

Never said much of the pentatuch was not grounded in legend and so why are you pretending otherwise. Do you know what strawman fallacy is Sunny D .. its king of like having a conversation with yourself .. but attributing one of the voices in your head to someone else. .. Let that person not be me in the future ?

Your claim that there is no evidence for the historocity of any events of the Bible is completely false .. that is all that was stated .. what part did you not understand .. "but but but but" ... Sorry SunnyD ... there is no but's .. correct your mistake and move on .. instead of making up nonsense and attributing that nonsense to others.

Have you managed to come up with a definition for what a Godly power would be .. something related to the topic .. and how one might notice that power at work if such extisted and was messing with the experiment. .. ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Dude .. never said anything about noah .. moses . jacob -- so why do you continue to pretend otherwise ..

Never said much of the pentatuch was not grounded in legend and so why are you pretending otherwise. Do you know what strawman fallacy is Sunny D .. its king of like having a conversation with yourself .. but attributing one of the voices in your head to someone else. .. Let that person not be me in the future ?

Your claim that there is no evidence for the historocity of any events of the Bible is completely false .. that is all that was stated .. what part did you not understand .. "but but but but" ... Sorry SunnyD ... there is no but's .. correct your mistake and move on .. instead of making up nonsense and attributing that nonsense to others.

Have you managed to come up with a definition for what a Godly power would be .. something related to the topic .. and how one might notice that power at work if such extisted and was messing with the experiment. .. ?

There is abundant evidence that much of the Pentateuch is based on legend and mythology, beginning with the Genesis Creation mythology, and yes the story of Noah and the flood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thank you for confirming that.

Obviously there are some here who claim to believe in God or are members of a religion and believed like you did, I.e., that many accounts in the Bible are mythical rather than reality. In fact some are v-e-r-y reluctant to explain why they believe in God. But anyway, thanks for your comment.

I leaned that far more were mythical after I quit believing than when I was a believer. What is odd is that you cannot deal with any of the failures of the Bible. What eventually made me lose my faith was realizing how poor the ethics are of the Bible. Not so much what Jesus taught. He appears to have been many years ahead of his time. I am talking about the myths about him that arose after he died and who will get to heaven and why.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It certainly does sound like something Creationists will double and triple down on.

I mean, thinking does not get any more shallow than declaring "GodDidIt".

No, shallow thinkers believe that the first complex and synergistic structures eventually created themselves; that no intelligent builder was needed to build the code which built its parts and then arranged in working order.

The first ones needed to have the genetic code assembling them, created. To think no intelligent direction was needed, to me and other thinkers, is not thinking.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, shallow thinkers believe that the first complex and synergistic structures eventually created themselves; that no intelligent builder was needed to build the code which arranged its parts in working order.

The first ones needed assembling. To think no intelligent direction was needed, to me and other thinkers, is not thinking.

And this is just an argument from ignorance. It is not a refutation. If you want to claim that abiogenesis is impossible the burden of proof is still upon you.

And you have as much as admitted that evolution is a fact since evolution does not rely on natural abiogenesis.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes .. it is a claim .. it is a claim not to believe in something..

No, it's not. That's a position on a claim.
I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand the difference.

Claim: X exists .. is a claim that X exists
Counter claim X does not exist .. is a claim that X does not exist.

But that is not what is being said.
The claim is that X exists.
Atheism is the position on that claim of disbelief.

"X does not exist", is a claim yes. It's not what I said.

And you are totally missing the point .. completely lost in the land of fallacy and illogic.

You say you have not come across a remotely plausible definition for X .. ??!!?? which is why I have been asking you to define X .. because without a definition of X .. plausible or otherwise .. neither the claim .. nor the counter claim can be assessed for truth or falsehood..

It's not upto me to define X because I'm not the one who's claiming that X exists.
I go by the definitions of X that the claimers of X give me.

Thus .. as I have been saying over and over .. This is a claim of nothing .. a claim "I do not believe in nothing" = YOu believe in something .. and this is circular illogical stupidity.

No. It's the position of "this thing X YOU are claiming to exist and as YOU define it, I see no reason to believe that claim".
Where "you" is whatever god believer is expressing belief in god and defining the god they are believing in.

"I have found no plausible definitions" you say. OK .. Right .. which is why I have been asking you to provide a plausible definition. .. for what it is you don't believe in .. as without such .. I have not the faintest idea what it is you don't believe in .. or what you do believe in .. just a meaningless black hole .. into which your brain has sunk.. and unable to find a way out .. despite continuously being pointed in the right direction. ..

Again, I'm not the one claiming gods exist. Why would I have to define it?
I'm just saying that of all god believers I have conversed with, I asked them what they mean by "god". I asked them to define that which they believe in.
That's their job, not mine.

but the strangest thing .. is that you are not alone in your inability to speak .. something that very common in my discussions with fundamentalists .. joyful scientific discussions with the young earth creationists.. trying to convince them that when you dig down in your back Yard in Montana .. we don't find the flood layer .. which .. if global flood happened .. would be everywhere that no major tectonic shifts have happened in the past 6000 years .. a very short span of time geologically .. so the layer should not be that deep .. and relatively easy to find.


but --- this is not from the theist crowd .. the literalists who are trained .. by insidious cult leaders in "thought stoping techniques" .. and yes .. this is a real science .. called mind control.

but - this is not from theists that I am getting this brainwashed "Thought Stopping Response" .. this is from altheists ... which is fascinating but also extremely sad .. to see the shackles of sheepdom .. upon so many .. unbeknownst to them .

Do you undersetand what is being suggested here friend ?

No, not a clue what you are trying to say. Perhaps if you would put in some effort to write in complete sentences and use a bit of sensible punctuation... Maybe then it might make more sense and / or be clearer.

Why is it you can not answer the simple question .. You meet some entity on the side of the road .. that entity claims to be a God .. what Godlike powers would this entity have to exhibit to convince you that they were a God .. and why .. or why not -- rather than avoiding the question .. deflection or some other mind bending thought stopping sub routine.

I'm not avoiding anything nor am I deflecting.
YOU are the one who's using the word "god". You tell me what the properties of this "god" are. Are you aware also that the properties YOU will mention will not match the properties that other god believers might mention?

Ask an ancient greek to describe one of their gods and compare that to Allah or Jawhe or Visjnoe.
These will be different descriptions.

So -- as stated .. if you don't think being able to hurl lighting bolts by force of will is a God like power .. explain why not.

I don't think I said any such thing.

There is no claim that X exists or does not exist . X clearly exists .. the question is whether or not this is a God-like power .. and if not this then what is a God-Like power .. to claim that nothing is a God like Power .. would be the most ridiculous of non answers. .. and illogical moronicity ... the claim "I don't believe in Nothing" ..

I again didn't say any such thing.

You should read with more attention

Do you not agree that the claim "I don't believe in Nothing" .. is circular illogicl moronicity .. a non argument .. if you like.

Don't really care as I haven't said that either. I see no need to "defend" or "explain" statements I didn't make.

You do understand what an argument is .. Right ? contains 2 things 1) Statement of claim or Premise 2) some evidence, argument, support showing that claim is true.

Now -- please provide a reasonable . .non fallacious (Everything or Nothing being the twin fallacies) definition of a Godly power ?

Do you understand the question ? ... tick tock ... tick tock... .. cause this is like the 5th time I have asked it .. without recieving response... due to major blockage of some kind .. "Thought stopping" device perhaps ?

I'm not a god believer nor am I claiming that "godly power" is a real thing.
I don't see why I should be the one to define it.

You define it and then I'll say why I believe it exists or why not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They haven't called me stupid, dumb, but "uneducated," "pretending to be a victim," "ignorant."

That's because you ARE uneducated and ignorant.
In fact, I'll make that "willfully ignorant".

I have 3 years worth of posts correcting the SAME mistake over and over and over again from you, which are you still repeating till this day.

A mistake you make because you are uneducated and ignorant about evolution.
And it becomes willful ignorance because you refuse to correct the mistake and thus insist on being wrong, even after all these years of having it corrected time and again.

While might think that is ok, truthful and good, all I can say is -- So -- have a good day. I have confidence that yes, there is a God greater than ourselves who will settle many things. So take care.

It doesn't matter in fact if there is a god or not.
That doesn't change anything about the demonstrable facts of reality and you being uneducated and willfully ignorant about them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm not afraid to learn.

Then why are you still repeating the same mistakes after 3 years of having them corrected?
Maybe you are not "afraid" to learn, but nevertheless you don't seem to want to learn.....

 

[shunyadragon]

Dude .. never said anything about noah .. moses . jacob -- so why do you continue to pretend otherwise ..

Never said much of the pentatuch was not grounded in legend and so why are you pretending otherwise. Do you know what strawman fallacy is Sunny D .. its king of like having a conversation with yourself .. but attributing one of the voices in your head to someone else. .. Let that person not be me in the future ?

Your claim that there is no evidence for the historocity of any events of the Bible is completely false .. that is all that was stated .. what part did you not understand .. "but but but but" ... Sorry SunnyD ... there is no but's .. correct your mistake and move on .. instead of making up nonsense and attributing that nonsense to others.

Have you managed to come up with a definition for what a Godly power would be .. something related to the topic .. and how one might notice that power at work if such extisted and was messing with the experiment. .. ?

There is not such objective "definition for what a Godly power would be . . . . and how one might notice that power at work if such existed and was messing with the experiment. .. ?

This statement reveals a religious agenda on your part to justify the mythology of the Bible, which negates any objective view of the scriptures on your part. This is a classic ridiculous fallacy of "arguing from ignorance" with no basis in the objective scientific, historical and archeology of the Middle East,

 

[Sargonski]

The is abundant evidence that much of the Pentateuch is based on legend and mythology, beginning with the Genesis Creation mythology, and yes the story of Noah and the flood.

Another donut .. Did not say otherwise ? --- Some is also based on Historical Fact

 

[Sargonski]

There is not such objective "definition for what a Godly power would be . . . . and how one might notice that power at work if such existed and was messing with the experiment. .. ?

This statement reveals a religious agenda on your part to justify the mythology of the Bible, which negates any objective view of the scriptures on your part. This is a classic ridiculous fallacy of "arguing from ignorance" with no basis in the objective scientific, historical and archeology of the Middle East,

Completely false nonsense I am asking you for what your definition of God is .. how is that arguing from ignorance .. with religious agenda.. YOU are the one arguing from ignorance.. I am simply trying to get you to define your terms so that you are not arguing from ignorance.

I am the Scientist here friend .. the one arguing from the scientific evidence archaeology and history of the middle east .. SunnyD is the one making false claims .. in denial of the scientific evidence I have put forth saying there is no evidence of any Biblical stories. which is down a rabbit hole to begin with .. deflecting from your Chaos theory failure.

 

[shunyadragon]

Completely false nonsense I am asking you for what your definition of God is .. how is that arguing from ignorance .. with religious agenda.. YOU are the one arguing from ignorance.. I am simply trying to get you to define your terms so that you are not arguing from ignorance.

I am the Scientist here friend .. the one arguing from the scientific evidence archaeology and history of the middle east .. SunnyD is the one making false claims .. in denial of the scientific evidence I have put forth saying there is no evidence of any Biblical stories. which is down a rabbit hole to begin with .. deflecting from your Chaos theory failure.

This hypothetical statement "definition for what a Godly power would be . . . . and how one might notice that power at work if such existed and was messing with the experiment. .. ? concerning God is an argument from ignorance, based on a religious agenda.

Not really the subject of the thread, but you made the statement.

 

[shunyadragon]

Another donut .. Did not say otherwise ? --- Some is also based on Historical Fact

Yes, "Some"

 

[Sargonski]

No, it's not. That's a position on a claim.
I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand the difference.



But that is not what is being said.
The claim is that X exists.
Atheism is the position on that claim of disbelief.

"X does not exist", is a claim yes. It's not what I said.



It's not upto me to define X because I'm not the one who's claiming that X exists.
I go by the definitions of X that the claimers of X give me.





No. It's the position of "this thing X YOU are claiming to exist and as YOU define it, I see no reason to believe that claim".
Where "you" is whatever god believer is expressing belief in god and defining the god they are believing in.



Again, I'm not the one claiming gods exist. Why would I have to define it?
I'm just saying that of all god believers I have conversed with, I asked them what they mean by "god". I asked them to define that which they believe in.
That's their job, not mine.



No, not a clue what you are trying to say. Perhaps if you would put in some effort to write in complete sentences and use a bit of sensible punctuation... Maybe then it might make more sense and / or be clearer.



I'm not avoiding anything nor am I deflecting.
YOU are the one who's using the word "god". You tell me what the properties of this "god" are. Are you aware also that the properties YOU will mention will not match the properties that other god believers might mention?

Ask an ancient greek to describe one of their gods and compare that to Allah or Jawhe or Visjnoe.
These will be different descriptions.



I don't think I said any such thing.



I again didn't say any such thing.

You should read with more attention



Don't really care as I haven't said that either. I see no need to "defend" or "explain" statements I didn't make.


I'm not a god believer nor am I claiming that "godly power" is a real thing.
I don't see why I should be the one to define it.

You define it and then I'll say why I believe it exists or why not.

Hilarious you go around accusing others of willful ignorance .. .. you unable to figure out that if you make a statement - claim- hypothesis - premise .. or just generally having a conversation .. and you use a term "God" in this case .. it is up to you to define what that term means.

You cry out "I am not a God Believer" "nor am I claiming Godly power exists"

but then cry out .. "I don't see why i should define God / Godly power" -- and not continue on in willfull ignorance ? What is the problem .. define your terms .. what would be an example of a Godly power that you don't believe in . Does being able to conjure lighting bolts from the sky not do it .. ? can you manage a Yes or No ? Yes .. godly power .. NO NO NO NO NO .. not .

What a joke.

That's because you ARE uneducated and ignorant.
In fact, I'll make that "willfully ignorant".

I have 3 years worth of posts correcting the SAME mistake over and over and over again from you, which are you still repeating till this day.

A mistake you make because you are uneducated and ignorant about evolution.
And it becomes willful ignorance because you refuse to correct the mistake and thus insist on being wrong, even after all these years of having it corrected time and again.


It doesn't matter in fact if there is a god or not.
That doesn't change anything about the demonstrable facts of reality and you being uneducated and willfully ignorant about them.

the above was your ridiculous Projection of your failings onto another poster. Who is the one continuing to make the same mistake . over and over. believing one does not have to define one's terms when making a statement ..

What does not matter to the fact if there is a god or not .. A definition of God ? Wrong .. NO .. Sorry .. Wrong answer. The definition matters everything .. Many have defined God as a Sun .. each Sun a God. and you ask "How does that matter to whether a God exists or not" ? when obviously it matters a whole lot .. as the Sun exists .. the fact that there is a Sun .. and as such that there is a God.

Stupendous disingenuous oblivion.

 

[Sargonski]

This hypothetical statement "definition for what a Godly power would be . . . . and how one might notice that power at work if such existed and was messing with the experiment. .. ? concerning God is an argument from ignorance, based on a religious agenda.

Not really the subject of the thread, but you made the statement.

Holy moly this must be disingenous obvlion . how you do not understand that if you make a statement .. you need to define your terms for your statement to have any meaning .. Statement - Claim - Premise ... You are not being asked to hypothesize .. you are being asked to define what it is you do not believe is a Godly power ... is being able to conjure lighting bolts from the sky a "Godly Power" ? Yes .. or NO NO NO.. I don't care but define your term

and yes .. the definition of God is exactly the subject of this thread .. good grief .. this thread is about if evolution had any help .. did you not know that ? or another bout of disingenuous obvlivion ? Donut