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How convincing is the Qur'an anyway? In which respects?

FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Subduction Zone said:
I see that you do not understand the difference.

And I doubt if you "know" that God exists. You appear to only have belief. Knowledge is demonstrable and to date you have not been able to show that your God exists at all.

Not believing in something is not a belief that those things do not exist. A hundred years before bacteria were discovered no one believed that they existed. But then no one believed that they did not exist either since the concept did not even exist. Most atheists are agnostics. That means only that they lack a belief in a god or gods. The reason that they lack that belief is because insufficient evidence exists for a rational belief in a god. That is not saying that god does not exist. Now I can refute specific versions of "God". The "God" of the fundamentalist can be shown not to exist. That is rather low hanging fruit I am not going to claim that I can prove that all gods do not exist. But since I am not claiming that gods do not exist the burden of proof is not upon me.

The burden of proof is always on those making a positive statement. If you claim that your God exists then you are placing a burden of proof upon yourself.
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We have a mind to realize that God does exist, I believe animals
can't know that God exists because they lack the ability of thinking.

You have already in one other thread claimed that a saying of the
prophet that the buildings in Mecca will approach the mountains
in the future to be a vague and not understood, see Mecca just before a hundred year ago and you may understand the prophecy.

I don't need to explain to you why I believe that God exists because you have already chose not to.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
FearGod said:
We have a mind to realize that God does exist, I believe animals
can't know that God exists because they lack the ability of thinking.

You have already in one other thread claimed that a saying of the
prophet that the buildings in Mecca will approach the mountains
in the future to be a vague and not understood, see Mecca just before a hundred year ago and you may understand the prophecy.

I don't need to explain to you why I believe that God exists because you have already chose not to.
Click to expand...
Sorry, you can't claim that your mind knows God exists. That is only belief. And people are animals. So you just contradicted yourself as well. It is best to say "other animals".

And I understand the prophecy. It is either so vague as to be worthless or it is wrong. The problem with poetic verses is that they are not reliable prophecies since they will have more than one interpretation. Saying "this prophecy came true because this roughly matches it" makes the prophecy worthless since anyone who practices can make those sorts of prophecies.

This is from an article on prophecies in the Bible, but the same applies to prophecies in the Quran, I doubt if any of the "prophecies" meet these standards (don't worry, neither to do the ones in the Bible):

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

  1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
  2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
  3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
  4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
  5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Subduction Zone said:
Sorry, you can't claim that your mind knows God exists. That is only belief. And people are animals. So you just contradicted yourself as well. It is best to say "other animals".

The rational mind knows, I don't need to discuss it deeply with you
as it'll be useless because you have determined not to believe.

And I understand the prophecy. It is either so vague as to be worthless or it is wrong. The problem with poetic verses is that they are not reliable prophecies since they will have more than one interpretation. Saying "this prophecy came true because this roughly matches it" makes the prophecy worthless since anyone who practices can make those sorts of prophecies.

This is from an article on prophecies in the Bible, but the same applies to prophecies in the Quran, I doubt if any of the "prophecies" meet these standards (don't worry, neither to do the ones in the Bible):

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

  1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
  2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
  3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
  4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
  5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
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What is vague about a prophecy saying that the buildings in Mecca
will be approaching the mountains of Mecca.

It only means one thing and which is that the buildings in Mecca will
approach the mountains, we don't fit the statement into the fact that
the buildings really approached the mountains, but that's really what happened and I don't have to guess that the prophet was guessing when he said it.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
FearGod said:
What is vague about a prophecy saying that the buildings in Mecca
will be approaching the mountains of Mecca.

It only means one thing and which is that the buildings in Mecca will
approach the mountains, we don't fit the statement into the fact that
the buildings really approached the mountains, but that's really what happened and I don't have to guess that the prophet was guessing when he said it.
Click to expand...


The buildings do not even begin to "approach the mountains". It fails on being overly vague at best. And I do not believe that is the original version that you used. Sadly it was in another thread. If you are merely saying that the buildings will get close to the mountains as the city grows then it fails number 4 in the above list. If you try to use if for tall buildings then it is overly vague and it also fails number four.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Subduction Zone said:
The buildings do not even begin to "approach the mountains". It fails on being overly vague at best. And I do not believe that is the original version that you used. Sadly it was in another thread. If you are merely saying that the buildings will get close to the mountains as the city grows then it fails number 4 in the above list. If you try to use if for tall buildings then it is overly vague and it also fails number four.
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It's only an example that some people chose not to believe regardless of the evidences, the statement is amazing and not a guess work.

Can you tell us 10 things from your mind that could happen after 1500 years from now?
of course you can, please tell us 10 things that'll happen in the future.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
FearGod said:
It's only an example that some people chose not to believe regardless of the evidences, the statement is amazing and not a guess work.

Can you tell us 10 things from your mind that could happen after 1500 years from now?
of course you can, please tell us 10 things that'll happen in the future.
Click to expand...
What "evidence"? If you have some I will gladly look at it.

And I am not in the prophecy game. That is pointless. Even if I made correct prophecies there would be no way for us to check them out. For example I could predict:

In 1,500 years the leader of the world will be a penguin named Dorp Feezlebee. Prove me wrong. You can't. And of course I can't prove that I am correct. But we can see how the prophecies of the Bible and the Quran fail. Constantly.
 
Remté

Remté

Active Member
Subduction Zone said:
What "evidence"? If you have some I will gladly look at it.

And I am not in the prophecy game. That is pointless. Even if I made correct prophecies there would be no way for us to check them out. For example I could predict:

In 1,500 years the leader of the world will be a penguin named Dorp Feezlebee. Prove me wrong. You can't. And of course I can't prove that I am correct. But we can see how the prophecies of the Bible and the Quran fail. Constantly.
Click to expand...
It is said the bible predicted Muhammad and I'm not talking about that desert verse.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Subduction Zone said:
What "evidence"? If you have some I will gladly look at it.

And I am not in the prophecy game. That is pointless. Even if I made correct prophecies there would be no way for us to check them out. For example I could predict:

In 1,500 years the leader of the world will be a penguin named Dorp Feezlebee. Prove me wrong. You can't. And of course I can't prove that I am correct. But we can see how the prophecies of the Bible and the Quran fail. Constantly.
Click to expand...

Actually you don't need to make prophecies that'll happen after
hundreds of years simply because you aren't a prophet.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
FearGod said:
Like the tall buildings in Mecca, according to you it isn't true and
there're no tall buildings in Mecca hence for you the prophecy failed,
but in reality the prophecy was 100% correct.
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Wrong, I never said that there were no tall buildings in Mecca. Why did you make that claim?

Quote the prophecy as you originally phrased it and I will explain how it failed.
 
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