How could you trace someone's liniage back to David? With what documents?

[tomarnold]

I know that these documents were said to have been kept in the temple that Titus and his men sacked and then put on fire, but have not heard anyone saying that it is still possible.

What say you?

Thank you for your replies.

 

[Levite]

I know that these documents were said to have been kept in the temple that Titus and his men sacked and then put on fire, but have not heard anyone saying that it is still possible.

What say you?

Thank you for your replies.

It is said to still be possible. The great Hasidic rebbes all trace their lineage back to the Baal Shem Tov, who was said to be able to trace his lineage back to Rav Saadiah Gaon of Babylonia, who in turn was said to be able to trace his lineage back to Rabbi Akiva, who was said to be able to trace himself back to King David.

It was said also, I believe, that the ARI z"l (Rabbi Yitzhak Luria) was able to trace himself back to King David somehow-- possibly via the same ancestry of Saadiah Gaon.

I will be honest-- I have no idea what documents they use, or how they claim to have this genealogy, nor am I even 100% convinced that such a genealogy would really be accurate. There is almost certainly genealogy from David to Mishnaic times (turn of the Common Era), and is without doubt certainly genealogy from the Baal Shem Tov to many rebbes living today. Whether there is really accurate genealogy from the time of the Mishnah to Rav Saadiah Gaon, let alone from Saadiah to the ARI or the Baal Shem Tov....that I might have my doubts about.

Still, nothing is impossible. A helpful librarian I ran into at the British Library once was able to demonstrate for me the lineage of Queen Elizabeth back to Charlemagne, the which I saw no reason to doubt. And that's about the same time frame as back to Saadiah Gaon....

If you have a really burning interest, try asking a Chabad rabbi. He would probably know, or be able to find out, with what sources such a lineage is traced.

 

[1am1ion]

This is such a great question !
My geneological documents go back to Queen Victoria the 1st.

So they say ... its not that far back, could be true, but my point ........

........ is ----------> FRAUD.

Many people want to sound important and like to latch onto whatever they can to
enhance their status. Documents are so easily falsified, its paper afterall.

A smart person [trickster] would know now as he would 3000 yrs ago
that 500 years after the fact no-one is going to question ancient papers
if the age can be assertained and the documents match templates from records of that time period well then they must be legit right ?
Wrong !

There are numerous examples of such hoaxes being perpetrated throughout history.
The Queen of England who it is said I am related to has a framed chart on the walls of the palace which says she is related to KIng David.
The Passionate Eye [a CBC canadian documentary show] stated the George Bush claimed to be related to Jesus Christ [thru Magdalene].

Is it true ?
or is this a fraud perpetrated to give such people and their family alleged 'divine right' to rule?
Many leaders have made such claims throughout history, and several have been caught falsifying the documents.

When examining this we must admit we dont relly know WHO is related to king David.
Why ?
Because people lie. Even Rabbis lie, and as such the texts they write must be suspect as well.
No-one knows who is related to king David ... let it go.
In text God makes it clear that genes dont cut it, its good works, so if looking for a righteous ruler
look past the blue genes into the heart of gold.

 

[Ben Masada]

I know that these documents were said to have been kept in the temple that Titus and his men sacked and then put on fire, but have not heard anyone saying that it is still possible.

What say you?

Thank you for your replies.

We can't. The closest we could do was to trace one's genealogy back to the Tribe of Judah, which has become a sysnonym for the lineage of David. Judah, as the Jewish People today in power in Jerusalem, is the same as if David is back in his throne. That's according to God's promise to David that his Tribe would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

Although the Tribe of Judah itself is only the main stem, Judah, the People is composed also of a few thousands from the other ancient Tribes and two thirds of the Levites who returned to the Kingdom of the South during the 100 years of moratorium, betwenn the permanent removal of Israel from existence by the Assyrians and until Judah too was taken into a temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon. Today though, the actual Jewish People is composed of the mainstem of Judah, a few thousands from the other Tribes and the converts from the Gentiles.

Once that moratorium was over with the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon, any individual or group that intends to join the Jewish People must undergo conversion according to Halacha, even claiming afilliation to any of the ancient tribes. The Tribal system has been over since the return from Babylon.

 

[fallingblood]

This is such a great question !
My geneological documents go back to Queen Victoria the 1st..

Just so you know, this is the Judaism directory. Not really a debate forum.

 

[Levite]

Just so you know, this is the Judaism directory. Not really a debate forum.

Thank you.

 

[tomarnold]

We can't. The closest we could do was to trace one's genealogy back to the Tribe of Judah, which has become a sysnonym for the lineage of David. Judah, as the Jewish People today in power in Jerusalem, is the same as if David is back in his throne. That's according to God's promise to David that his Tribe would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

So essentially there is no absolute way to know then. Ok, so as far as Messianic prophecies how would one be able to determine if it was fulfilled in someone or not?

Netanyahu is of the tribe of Judah then?

Although the Tribe of Judah itself is only the main stem, Judah, the People is composed also of a few thousands from the other ancient Tribes and two thirds of the Levites who returned to the Kingdom of the South during the 100 years of moratorium, betwenn the permanent removal of Israel from existence by the Assyrians and until Judah too was taken into a temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon. Today though, the actual Jewish People is composed of the mainstem of Judah, a few thousands from the other Tribes and the converts from the Gentiles.

What percent of Israel, or how many thousands, of the the 'Jews' in Israel would you say are converted Gentiles?

 

[tomarnold]

Intesresting to ponder.