How did the Rishis obtain the knowledge of the Vedas?

[Aupmanyav]

Many things happen in Mythology - a vulture tries to help a woman who was being abducted, a demoness as big as a mountain changes to the form of a beautiful woman and tries to kill a human baby by applying poison to her teats, and a child dances on the head of a seven-headed serpent in the middle of a river. I do not know why you are feeling surprised? Now was it a seven-headed horse, or seven horses, or seven suns/sons (Adityas) mentioned in the RigVeda, who knows?

"the septenary character of the sun is quite patent from the fact that he is called saptâshva (seven-horsed, in V, 45, 9, and his “seven-wheeled” chariot is said to be drawn by “seven bay steeds” (I, 50, 8 ), or by a single horse “with seven names” in I, 164, 2. The Atharva Veda also speaks of “the seven bright rays of the sun” (VII, 107, 1); and the epithet Âditya, as applied to the sun in the Rig-Veda, is rendered more clearly by Aditeh putrah (Aditi’s son) in A.V. XIII, 2, 9." "Arctic Home in Vedas", Bal Gangadhar Tilak, page 140.

सप्तभिः पुत्रैरदितिरुप प्रैत पूर्व्यं युगम l प्रजायै मर्त्यवे त्वत् पुनर्मार्ताण्डमाभरत ll
"Saptabhih putrairaditirupa praita purvyam ygam l prajayai martyave tvat punarmartandamabharata ll RigVeda 10.72.9
(So with her seven sons Aditi went forth to meet the earlier age, she brought Martanda thitherward to spring to life and die again.)

So what is wrong with a seven-headed horse having a swig of Soma, or Rudra impregnating Prisni, the cow to beget the Marutas? They got so many things by cutting and eating up "Purusha". Do you take mythology as fact?

 

[atanu]

richo akshare parame vyoman yasmin deva adhi vishve nisheduh,
yastanna veda kim richa karishyatiya it tad vidus ta ime samasate ||
(rig veda, 1.164.39)

The veda, reside in the transcendental field or akshara, of the highest (parame) etheral Being (vyoman) wherein reside the vishve deva's, responsible for the manifest universe. He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him? Those who know this level of reality are established in evenness in That.

 

[atanu]

Soma, the God and Soma, the drink are related. Vedic Gods and rishis certainly liked to imbibe Soma, the drink. There were detailed procedures to produce it, it was more or less a religious ceremony, soma was mixed with milk and sugar. And without having been invigorated by Soma, Indra would not have won his fight against the demon Vritra. Even Uchaishrava, his seven-headed horse, was invigorated with soma. Those who helped Indra in this enterprise at various times, Gods Soma and Ashwinis , and priests Atharvans and Angirsas, whom the Aryans called as their fathers, also did that only after having a drink of Soma.

The above are half truths and are some very immature notions. But when cloaked in the garb of scholarship, as you appear to present them, these notions are dangerous.

The Rig Veda itself clarifies as to what Soma is:

Rig Veda 10.85.3
somaṃ manyate papivan yat sampiṃṣantyoṣadhim |
somaṃ yambrahmāṇo vidurna tasyāśnāti kaścana |

In ITX
soma\'m manyate papi\`vaan yat sa\'mpiM\`Shanty oSha\'dhim |\\
somaM\` yam bra\`hmaaNo\' vi\`dur na tasyaa\'shnaati\` kash ca\`na || \EN{10}{085}{03} \\

Rig Veda 10.85.1 to 10.85.4
1. TRUTH is the base that bears the earth; by Surya are the heavens sustained.
By Law the Adityas stand secure, and Soma holds his place in heaven.
2 By Soma are the Adityas strong, by Soma mighty is the earth.
Thus Soma in the midst of all these constellations hath his place.
3 One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma's juice;
Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes.
4 Soma, secured by sheltering rules, guarded by hymns in Brhati,
Thou standest listening to the stones none tastes of thee who dwells on earth.

Rig Veda 1.164 Visvedevas. (ASIYA VAMIYA SUKTA)
35 This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.
The stallion's seed prolific is the soma; this brahman the highest heaven where speech abideth.

Rig Veda 9.2.10 Soma Pavamana.
10 Winner of kine, Indu, art thou, winner of heroes, steeds, and strength
Primeval Soul of sacrifice.

Rig Veda 9. 60 Soma Pavamana.
1. SING forth and laud with sacred song most active Pavamana, laud Indu who sees with thousand eyes.
2 Thee who hast thousand eyes to see, bearer of thousand burthens, they Have filtered through the fleecy cloth.
...........
Soma is the Seer, Brahman through infinite eyes. Soma is Vachaspati (Lord of Speech) and Indra's Self, Indra Himself and the adhiyajna (the primeval soul).

One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma's juice;
Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes.

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, I am like Dev Ananda, who does not get frightened by 'pothi pandits' (brahmins who claim to know scriptures) reciting 'Purnamadah, purnamidam ..' in film 'Guide', so kindly do not try to frighten me by quoting RigVedic verses. Given below is a 'Aupmanyav's' simpler translation of the same verse, though I do not claim to be a Sanskrit 'pandit':

"The syllables of the praise (richas) are in high heavens where the world’s Gods have placed them;
What will they do who do not know this? But they who know it well sit here assembled."

I see a strategy here. They are praising the audience (which will includes their fee paying clients (yajamanas) and themselves (brahmins who are conducting the ritual), and terming all other people as dumb. Nice strategy, it may get them better 'dakshina'. I know this because I too am a brahmin.

BTW, the word 'OM' does not appear anywhere in RigVeda unless you consider the Upanishads, Aranyakas and Brahmanas alog with it. RigVedic Aryans did not know 'OM'.

 

[atanu]

Now, I am like Dev Ananda, who does not get frightened by 'pothi pandits' (brahmins who claim to know scriptures) reciting 'Purnamadah, purnamidam ..' in film 'Guide', so kindly do not try to frighten me by quoting RigVedic verses. Given below is a 'Aupmanyav's' simpler translation of the same verse, though I do not claim to be a Sanskrit 'pandit':

"The syllables of the praise (richas) are in high heavens where the world’s Gods have placed them;
What will they do who do not know this? But they who know it well sit here assembled."

No problem with that translation too.

....Nice strategy, it may get them better 'dakshina'. I know this because I too am a brahmin.

I do not believe you.

BTW, the word 'OM' does not appear anywhere in RigVeda unless you consider the Upanishads, Aranyakas and Brahmanas alog with it. RigVedic Aryans did not know 'OM'.

Wrong. The Bull with four heads is well described in Vedas just as atman is well defined as all pervasive. But that is besides the point. The point is that the 'seven headed horse' is not a mythical horse. And so with many more allegorical forms.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The point is that the 'seven headed horse' is not a mythical horse. And so with many more allegorical forms.

My point is that the 'seven-headed horse' cannot be anything other than a mythical horse (like Burraq, the white creature with wings on which Mohammad rode to heaven to meet with Moses, Jesus and other prophets).

 

[atanu]

There are very immature folks who take pride in killing cows. Your joy is like that.

PS: By cow I also mean the Veda, the gauri

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are very immature folks who take pride in killing cows. Your joy is like that.

RigVeda for me is one of the few most valuable books (the others being BhagawadPurana, BhagawadGita, Sri Ramacharit Manas and Upanishads, these books have shaped my life), particularly for the reason of my supposed Aryan ancestry. I am only amused by the attempt of chauvinist Hindus trying to make them into God's own words. RigVeda is the lore of pastoral people in prehistory who roamed over the Eurasian steppes with their cattle, their desires and fears.

 

[ShivaFan]

How did the Rishis obtain the knowledge of the Vedas?

Here is sort of a simple overview.

Vedas were once "one" but then got broken into "subjects" such as "invocations and hymns", "sacrifices and ritual", "mystics and powers", and the "oldest primeval man", to make it more "simple" but that is not the correct word but rather a Cosmic Matrix for humans as well to "get used to".

But the original Veda resided in a etheral "ocean" called Akshara, to inspire Creative intelligence that is a right of all souls, that allows "things" to become Manifest, civilization started to form and at first it wasn't going over so well at the human level. It was an improvement and certainly very Creative, but the Rishis decided it was "too loud" and decided to take a "vacation" or "recluse" or "peace" as such from this civilization, and when wandeding around in forests and such where things were "more quite" it was REVELED to them, sort of like discovering the cure for polio in bread mold. The actual Veda isn't books or scripture, but fundamental to the fabric of existence, Veda was not "India" or "Brahmin" but There and revels just like "mold". So the Rishis had it reveled to them, they didn't "invent" them anymore than science doesn't "invent" anything either but is already there and they may just "shape the clay" a bit here and there.

But by then, when HUMAN RISHIS or savants and such, noticed, it was also already broken into four parts, COGNIZED if you will, which were spoken by the Four Heads of Brahma who is seen as a Creator since the One Veda was Creative Intelligence, and Brahma had a Fifth Head also which was cut off and thus a Fifth Veda which today is sort of secret but go to Varanasi if you want to find it. Scholastic investigation won't work to find it.

Other - not to start a controversy, but the Upanishads are NOT the Vedas, not the FOUR, they came later and are COMMENTARIES on the Four. But not the Fifth. Neither is the Gita. Nor Ramayana. Does not make them "less", nor more, they contain gems of Vedas but are THEIR purpose.

 

[kalyan]

Upanishads are NOT the Vedas, not the FOUR, they came later and are COMMENTARIES on the Four.

lol , who told you that ? what an absolute ridiculous statement.....Upanishads are the uttara bhAga of vedam ........

 

[atanu]

.... attempt of chauvinist Hindus trying to make them into God's own words. RigVeda is the lore of pastoral people in prehistory who roamed over the Eurasian steppes with their cattle, their desires and fears.

I am not a Hindu chauvinist. But I do not think that this is a matter for arguing, especially when you have given your opinion, expressed in previous few posts, that Rig Veda is a work of drunkards that eulogises feats of drunk Lords such as Indra.

 

[ShivaFan]

Nope, Kalyan, you believe what you want but lol's have zero value. The Upanishads came MUCH later than the Vedas, they are commentaries, some even during the times of Jainism and Buddhism. They are NOT the Four. That is my path. You can think otherwise, but that isn't my path. Good luck!

 

[kalyan]

Nope, Kalyan, you believe what you want but lol's have zero value. The Upanishads came MUCH later than the Vedas

who told you that? its not my belief, Vedam is one part and it is divided into 2 parts, karma khanda, jnana khanda, jnana khanda is upanishads...You are committing blasphemy with your ridiculous statements, from where you pulled that I have no idea...Its not your path or my path, its what Vedam is, don't try twist by stating your POV as a fact! upanishads are commentaries? wow---the person that fed you this should be shamed in public

 

[ShivaFan]

who told you that? its not my belief, Vedam is one part and it is divided into 2 parts, karma khanda, jnana khanda, jnana khanda is upanishads...You are committing blasphemy with your ridiculous statements, from where you pulled that I have no idea...Its not your path or my path, its what Vedam is, don't try twist by stating your POV as a fact! upanishads are commentaries? wow---the person that fed you this should be shamed in public

Sorry, you are wrong in my tradition.In fact, the Upanishads which came later, and of course philosophical in nature and of extreme value, came at a time and are a nuture when savants started to question the "traditional" Vedic religious order. They were presented as "clarifications". But they are NOT the Four Vedas, neither is the Bhagavad Gita. There is nothing wrong with coming later, for example an Avatar is clearly Come later, such as Krishna AFTER Ram, Bhairava AFTER Shiva and so on in manifestation, albeit of Eternal yet there is a HISTORICAL order to the "leelas". The Upanishads were not BEFORE the Vedas, they were not IN the Vedas, they were AFTER the Vedas. No problem being so.

No, it is VERY clear. The hymns of the Vedas emphasized rituals and the Brahmanas serve as a liturgical manual for those Vedic rituals, the very spirit of the Upanishads is inherently opposed to ritual and launch a critic of increasing intensity against ritual of Vedas. The Vedanta school reflects this, actually, and the Famous Gods of the Vedas were not the focus of the later Upanishads.

However, things are cyclical. After the Upanishads, there was a RETURN yet again to Gods as Personalities and so Puranas, including the Bhagavatam Purana and it is there in the Purana, anr the Mahabharatam is later, that where the Gita is found, AFTER the Vedas.

There is nothing to fear in the truth, there is nothing wrong with cycles. There is a reason for cycles.

 

[kalyan]

Sorry, you are wrong in my tradition.In fact, the Upanishads which came later, and of course philosophical in nature and of extreme value, came at a time and are a nuture when savants started to question the "traditional" Vedic religious order. They were presented as "clarifications". But they are NOT the Four Vedas, neither is the Bhagavad Gita. There is nothing wrong with coming later, for example an Avatar is clearly Come later, such as Krishna AFTER Ram, Bhairava AFTER Shiva and so on in manifestation, albeit of Eternal yet there is a HISTORICAL order to the "leelas". The Upanishads were not BEFORE the Vedas, they were not IN the Vedas, they were AFTER the Vedas. No problem being so.

No, it is VERY clear. The hymns of the Vedas emphasized rituals and the Brahmanas serve as a liturgical manual for those Vedic rituals, the very spirit of the Upanishads is inherently opposed to ritual and launch a critic of increasing intensity against ritual of Vedas. The Vedanta school reflects this, actually, and the Famous Gods of the Vedas were not the focus of the later Upanishads.

However, things are cyclical. After the Upanishads, there was a RETURN yet again to Gods as Personalities and so Puranas, including the Bhagavatam Purana that where the Gita is found, AFTER the Vedas.

There is nothing to fear in the truth, there is nothing wrong with cycles. There is a reason for cycles.

Ridiculous, do you even know what is VEDAM ? as the things turned this way, I have to ask you a question...Are you even indian ?

Jnana khanda of vedam are upanishads, straight as that, It hurts me to see this level of ignorance in a DIR!

For instance, The Chandogya Upanishad (Sanskrit: छान्दोग्योपनिषद्, Chāndogyopaniṣad) is a Sanskrit text embedded in the Chandogya Brahmana of the Sama Veda

 

[Valjean]

Yeah. But what is Soma?

Soma is discussed in this BBC special. The presenter reviews ancient texts -- Rik &al -- and archaeology, to try to discover the composition if the ancient drink.

. Soma is discussed 34 to 43 minutes into the programme.

The best guess seems to be an infusion of Ephedra, containing the stimulant ephedrine; Papavar, containing the narcotic opium; and Cannabis, containing several psychoactive cannabinols.

 

[atanu]

Soma is discussed in this BBC special. The presenter reviews ancient texts -- Rik &al -- to try to discover the composition if the ancient drink.

. Soma is discussed 34 to 43 minutes into the programme.

The best guess seems to be an infusion of Ephedra, containing the stimulant ephedrine; Papavar, containing the narcotic opium; and Cannabis, containing several psychoactive cannabinols.

Yeah. Well. BBC has blocked that video on copyright ground. Anyway you know that I know that Soma is the very bliss of Brahman, the inseparable trio Sat-Chit-Ananda.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ledge-of-the-vedas.183338/page-2#post-4581881

 

[ShivaFan]

No, it is irrelevant if I am Indian or not, what a bigoted statement Kalyan. Your school is only one of many in Hinduism. There are schools which do not consider the Gita at all, which came after the Vedas and is Krishna centric. Krishna really isn't in the Vedas, that is because that Avatar if you follow the avatar tradition came AFTER the Vedas. The original Ved actually IS NOT ANY scripture at all.

By the time the One became the Four - with the Fifth hidden - it was then sometimes referenced as the VEDIC AGE. These had ritual, mantra, hymns, Indra and the Adityas and so on, living in HUMAN times and with nature.

The Upanishads came at the END of the Vedic times - yes just as the beginning of the end is still IN that beginning, they are the END of Vedas, challenged the rituals. They were like "Appendix", and after the Four.

They may QUOTE a original "heard tradition" but the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire as a book quotes Roman text - but it is not the specific text itself. So they questioned the Four, an appendix that questioned ritual, the end of vedic times.

Then we later see the rise of Puranic times.

More times are yet to come.

 

[atanu]

...
Other - not to start a controversy, but the Upanishads are NOT the Vedas, not the FOUR, they came later and are COMMENTARIES on the Four. But not the Fifth. Neither is the Gita. Nor Ramayana. Does not make them "less", nor more, they contain gems of Vedas but are THEIR purpose.

Actually, the upanishads are not considered commentaries at all. They are Sruti -- at least the major upanishads -- and are very much the part of the four Vedas themselves. Vedas usually have four kinds of texts: Samhitas, Brahmans, Aranyakas, and the Upanishads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śruti
Shruti (Sanskrit, IAST: śruti) means "that which is heard" and refers to the body of most authoritative, ancient religious texts comprising the central canon of Hinduism.[1] It includes the four Vedas including its four types of embedded texts - the Samhitas, the Brahmanas, the Aranyakas and the early Upanishads.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas
There are four Vedas: the Rigveda, the Yajurveda, the Samaveda and the Atharvaveda.[12][13] Each Veda has been subclassified into four major text types – the Samhitas (mantras and benedictions), the Aranyakas (text on rituals, ceremonies, sacrifices and symbolic-sacrifices), the Brahmanas (commentaries on rituals, ceremonies and sacrifices), and the Upanishads (text discussing meditation, philosophy and spiritual knowledge).[12][14][15] Some scholars add a fifth category – the Upasanas (worship).[16][17]

I can quote from bonafide Saiva gurus also.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ha, ha. The truth hurts. I know, I can see the grimace.

Don't get me wrong, Atanu. It could also have been good-natured praise of the people attending the ceremony. It was a big occasion, the sun-God Surya's marriage with his bride Suryaa. All the Aryan Gods and Goddesses, and the rishis must have been there.

Suryaa's Bridal is one of the most beautiful poems in RigVeda, But the verse you quoted, I think, does not have much philosophical depth. It is sort of a welcome address that is given at any gathering. The beauty of the hymn is in the last few verses, which shows what was expected of a new bride among the Aryans and the extent of faith reposed in her. It is for this that those particular verses are recited at any Hindu wedding even after more than 3,000 years. The hymn has very deep historical importance. I quote:

Suryaa's Bridal: (Slightly changed, replaced Olde English words)

"42 May you not parted; dwell you here reach the full time of human life.
With sons and grandsons sport and play, rejoicing in your own abode.
43 So may Prajāpati bring children forth to us; may Aryaman adorn us till old age comes near.
Not inauspiciousness enter your husband's house: bring blessing to our bipeds and our quadrupeds.
44 No evil-eyed, no slayer of thy husband (may trouble you), bring weal to cattle, radiant, gentle-hearted;
Loving the Gods, delightful, bearing heroes, bring blessing to our quadrupeds and bipeds.
45 O Bounteous Indra, make this bride blessed in her sons and fortunate.
Vouchsafe to her ten sons, and make her husband the eleventh man (in her life).
46 Over your husband's father and your husband's mother bear full sway.
Over the sister of your lord, over his brothers rule supreme."
47 So may the Universal Gods, so may the Waters join our hearts.
May Mātariśvan, Dhātar, and Destri together bind us close."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10085.htm