How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe He wanted them to have a perspective that only comes from knowing both good and evil. I mean, stop and think about it. What is "good" if the word has no counterpart? How can something even be said to be "good" if there was no frame of reference for the word? Remember, when He cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, He said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." So a knowledge of both good and evil is clearly a godly quality. I can't imagine that God would ever feel threatened by man's gaining knowledge, can you?

That makes sense. Do we really need to know what "good" means or even have it in our vocabulary if nothing existed but God himself?

I mean, if I only had good choices, I wouldn't even know what the word means. It's like knowing a mother's love without her having to define the word or even needing an opposite.

--

Here is a comparison. I think you read the thread about defining religion based on practice? If so, practice-based religions do not need to define what they do (is it love? is it good? is it sin?) for it to exist and just be. When I do my rituals, say pray to the sun, I don't need to say "this is good that I am doing this and this is according to a theology I took up". It's not based on belief and theology, it's based on action and connection.

That love--for god--is based on that action and connection rather than belief and theology. There is no such thing as love, good, bad, etc because what you do IS what these words are.

So, if god placed a gun in the middle of the garden and the child (given Adam and Eve were not taught they were just told not to) use the gun, how would they learn love if not for direct connection without having the gun blocking that connection?

That gun, tree, so have you, blocks that connection or love--that action--to which Adam and Eve would have a choice to give their god out of love. Having satan in the garden is another blockage that prevents them for making choices in how they wish to love their god.

It's counter productive.

What you say here: I can't imagine that God would ever feel threatened by man's gaining knowledge, can you?

God did feel threatened because the knowledge he "gave" (or allowed) was not something good to be taught but something bad. It's like putting a child's hand over a fire and expecting him to have positive feelings after that. Of course, he wouldn't and he would blame god and turn from him. There is a better way to give man knowledge or for him to gain it.

Sin. Sacrifice. Torture. Murder. Are not the answers to get it.

 

[Kartari]

Hi buddhist,

There are apparently some old records in a monastery in India regarding an individual matching Jesus' description traveling there to learn from them during that period in time. Just as I don't know for myself the validity of the record found in the chosen orthodox books (e.g. Christian gospels), I also don't know for myself the validity of this monastic record so, like you said, I believe it's an equally alternative possibility to consider.

Certainly there was a great deal of interaction and interplay between diverse and distant cultures and religions throughout Afro-Eurasia. It makes for a fascinating study.

 

[Deathbydefault]

The majority of the world is religious, in some way, and has been for most of recorded history. So if anyone was missing something, the smart money would be on non-Theists.

Are we non-theists missing out of the millions of different gods and spiritual beliefs that date all the way back to the human ability to create fire?
I'm not sad about it. I am sad, however, that most of the world can still believe such things.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Why do people see death as bad? It's an end to suffering and pain, an end to doubt and fear. If it were anything, it'd be a mercy.

I absolutely agree with this.

 

[prometheus11]

Well no, you can use debate as a method to learn. As a way to have a discussion. It doesn't have to be a way to win an argument.



I never said that. I just used the human/clay analogy to show the vast difference between men and God. That it's not merely the difference between a parent and child.

And I used the statement of Jesus to counter your claim. Big difference between clay and people with such godlike qualities that God calls humans gods.

 

[Thana]

Are we non-theists missing out of the millions of different gods and spiritual beliefs that date all the way back to the human ability to create fire?
I'm not sad about it. I am sad, however, that most of the world can still believe such things.

It's not sad to attempt to understand things, to gain knowledge.
Religion is just that.

 

[Deathbydefault]

It's not sad to attempt to understand things, to gain knowledge.
Religion is just that.

An extremely early and outdated version for sure.

I am a lover of knowledge dedicating myself to large amounts of study.
If I turned to religion for any of the questions I wanted answered then I wouldn't get a real answer.
Maybe some roundabout half-answer that requires faith, but not a real answer.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Thana,

Why do people see death as bad? It's an end to suffering and pain, an end to doubt and fear. If it were anything, it'd be a mercy.
God gave us life and free will and everything bad that happens to us is because of our choices and our ancestors choices, and at the end God cleans up our mess and gives us rest. What is so malevolent about that?

Given the world as it is, death can be a welcome end to a life well lived. Though as a Buddhist I understand that we can discipline our minds to reduce our self-made delusions and cravings which lead to much of our suffering, I am no youngster anymore and my juvenile desire to live forever has certainly waned.

That said, my argument here is not against living wisely and practically within the world as it is, but rather is against the illogical notion that a being, who can only be accurately described by humans as malevolent or insane at worst and indifferent and apathetic at best, purposely created all the torments we suffer and die from in the world, and yet can be regarded as beyond rebuke. As I wrote earlier, if even a mere human can imagine far better ways to create a universe with much less suffering, much more wisdom and compassion, and where freedom is not hampered in the least, then what is this God's excuse exactly? Appeals to authority, to power (i.e. God is our maker), and to ignorance come up very short imo... they appear rather as strongly related leftover remnants from a tribal bronze age culture that sought to impart obedience in the minds of common servants and slaves to their lords, kings, and masters.

 

[Katzpur]

That makes sense. Do we really need to know what "good" means or even have it in our vocabulary if nothing existed but God himself?

I mean, if I only had good choices, I wouldn't even know what the word means. It's like knowing a mother's love without her having to define the word or even needing an opposite.

I disagree. You might be able to know a mother's love, but would you really appreciate it? I don't think you would. I believe we would take every that we perceive of as "good" for granted if we had nothing with which to compare it. If you'd never known how it was to be sick or in pain, you would take your lack of pain or your good health for granted. I know that when I get feeling better after I've been sick, I am so much more aware of my health than I ever was before. And suppose you succeeded the very first time you ever tried something new. Would you find that as satisfying as if you had failed on multiple occasions and then finally overcame whatever it was that was holding you back. I am absolutely convinced that there must be opposites in all things. If there aren't, life is really pretty meaningless.

What you say here: I can't imagine that God would ever feel threatened by man's gaining knowledge, can you?

God did feel threatened because the knowledge he "gave" (or allowed) was not something good to be taught but something bad.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this, too. If God had a knowledge of good and evil, I think that clearly means that this is a godly trait. It's not that God felt threatened. I don't believe He felt that way at all. What good parent wouldn't want his children to gain all the knowledge they possibly could. You always hear parents say things like, "I want my child to have a better life than I did." A good parent doesn't begrudge his children's successes and growth. He celebrates them.

It's like putting a child's hand over a fire and expecting him to have positive feelings after that. Of course, he wouldn't and he would blame god and turn from him. There is a better way to give man knowledge or for him to gain it.

I'm sorry. I'm just not following you. Of course you wouldn't expect a child to have positive feelings after putting his hand over a hot fire. He learns that the fire is hot by experience, and that it burns. It's not supposed to be a positive experience.

 

[sojourner]

But just listen to yourself. Anybody can "choose" anything, but it may not happen.

What is the difference between me choosing to have all the worlds diamonds and me not making that choice? Is free will really so invisible as that?

Invisible? Fact is, whatever our choices --whatever our will, we don't always get what we want, because our free will and choices don't supersede those of others, or of the constraints of the natural world. Free will and the power to choose are not "free wish fulfillment." I'd also add that a choice for something unrealistic probably isn't a real choice to begin with, because choices are reality-based.

 

[sojourner]

Put out the garden=thrown out the play pin. You get the context?

Neither being thrown out of the garden nor getting thrown out if the playpen are punishments. At a certain point in growth and maturity, one no longer needs a playpen. At a certain point in the development of humanity, we no longer needed the garden.

 

[sojourner]

Why have that type of sport. Baseball is good, cause even though you get to different bases and choose whether to slid or stay where you're at, you always come back to home base (God)

Well... Not always in the case of baseball. "You ca love me, or you can love me" isn't a choice -- it's an obligation. Love is never obligated.

 

[prometheus11]

Invisible? Fact is, whatever our choices --whatever our will, we don't always get what we want, because our free will and choices don't supersede those of others, or of the constraints of the natural world. Free will and the power to choose are not "free wish fulfillment." I'd also add that a choice for something unrealistic probably isn't a real choice to begin with, because choices are reality-based.

Wrong. The free will of the person with the biggest gun gets to supersede the free choices of another. Consider rape, or worse.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If only I had a dollar for every time I'd heard this from someone.

Did they back up everything they said with the Scriptures? (I doubt it; most don't). Did they worship Jesus' God, Jehovah? -- Psalm 83:18; John 17:3; Revelation 3:12. (You think it would matter, which God you need to worship? -- Exodus 20:1-5)

I might even be able to tithe to the church for the rest of my life without even giving from my actual earnings!

Actually, that's not applicable for Christians; I don't recall that being a requirement in the Greek Scriptures, do you?)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree. You might be able to know a mother's love, but would you really appreciate it?

I'm sorry. I'm just not following you. Of course you wouldn't expect a child to have positive feelings after putting his hand over a hot fire. He learns that the fire is hot by experience, and that it burns. It's not supposed to be a positive experience.

These two kinda go together.

I give a good example. I have had epilepsy (seizure disorder) all of my life. I know no other feeling other than having this disorder. I have nothing to compare it to (say a healthy lifestyle) because this is all I am accustomed to. This is my "world" I guess you can say.

However, even though this is my world and this is all I know, I do not take it for granted that I still need to survive. Actually, having the illness itself (rather than recovering from it and looking back) is like a person being comfortable with a terminal illness. They go through stages (like I gone through severe life/death seizures, brain surgery, etc etc) and then you come to the other side and look at people and say "wait, I thought this was, um, normal?" I thought all people have some sort of sickness.

They don't.

My home school teacher should be about in her mid 60s in 2001. She was a air flight attendant, a holistic diet specialist (that was my homework, to go to the health food store!), and she exercised every day. She tossed aside Harry Potter (our required reading) and focused on my health.

Yet, even without her giving me the comparison I still did not take for granted that I am alive, I have over came pain, and I am here.

Not everyone learns by pain to find pleasure. It is true, when I thought I was going blind, and regained my sight (one of both eye problems), I don't take for granted that I can see 20/30 again. However, I rather be completely blind than half blind or go through brain surgery again.

Anyway, sorry, my point:

Not everyone needs to learn good through comparison. If I lived in a perfect place, I would not complain to the Creator and say "hey! you should give me sin so I learn to commit bad deeds and learn to love you more"

No.

I love the Creator because that is how he created me. That is how I choose to worship him is because he gave me the ability to make the choices of worshiping him as I see best. It would please him more, in this analogy, to do what's in my heart rather than what I am obligated to do as a result of pain.

I can see how people can learn from bad to get to good. When you are in a bad situation that is your life, you learn to appreciate what you have even if you see no other "good" person in your life.

One more example: I used to practice American Sign Language and interacted with the Deaf community often. Then one time I was talking to someone and she says that somewhere in Utah there is a town where this one family are all Deaf. The daughter did not know anyone could hear and speak. She didn't feel "pain" or disadvantage because she and her family accommodated for what they couldn't do with what they could. They probably didn't see it as accommodation.

Then she moves east and finds out that not everyone speaks ASL. That's a shock to her ears. "You mean, I am disadvantage because I can't hear?" (Hence the Deaf Community's discrimination)

Sorry, I type what 45 words a minute at minimum; so, I type a lot before I realize I'm going over board.

You do get my point though, right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Neither being thrown out of the garden nor getting thrown out if the playpen are punishments. At a certain point in growth and maturity, one no longer needs a playpen. At a certain point in the development of humanity, we no longer needed the garden.

That's a cultural thing, though. Western culture pushes people out, other cultures want to keep their children until they are married.

They were punished because they ate the forbidden fruit. Maybe thrown out isn't a good word, but that was the consequence of their actions. I think I touched on this on #335 to Katzpur.

 

[Buttercup]

Okay, I see what you're saying. You're saying we are flawed from the get-go.

Yes.

You don't think we should be capable of doing the horrendous things we as humans sometimes do. But what is the alternative? We either have free will or we don't. Because if we have free will, but can only take our bad choices so far, then God would have to step in and stop us when we crossed the line, wouldn't He? If we were programmed to do only good, how would anything we did be a meaningful choice?

What I'm asking in the OP is what do Christians think of God's design choice regarding our ability to commit murder. I'm seeing that most of the Christians, if not all of them in this thread, give God a free pass as far any culpability regarding the programming of his creatures to murder. I've yet to hear a Christian say "Dang, that is kind of a harsh way to learn, isn't it?" I just don't buy that that's the way it had to be. God had choices too. He invented free will.

I think it's "necessary" in the way I just tried to explain in my last paragraph. Believe me, I believe that God, too, experiences extreme sorrow when one of His children takes the life of another, but you just can't get around that being a possibility as long as you allow free will. Or, if you can, I haven't figured out how. Maybe you can think it through and explain it to me.

You honestly think it's necessary to allow our murderous function to be played out? Why? How is that particular act applicable toward our growth?

Yes, I agree that it's heartbreaking. I simply don't know how God could have accomplished His purpose for mankind had He programmed us to do only good, or maybe just a little bit of bad. And how much bad would we be permitted to do? Wouldn't that be an entirely arbitrary decision on His part anyway?

He's GOD. Other arbitrary decisions like flooding the earth and killing everyone on it except Noah and his family doesn't seem to bother most Christians I know. I consider that an arbitrary act - doesn't seem fair or right to me. If He's all powerful, he absolutely didn't need to design humans the way we are. We already die. People are terribly unkind to each other. The natural catastrophes we encounter cause enough pain so that we may experience the opposite emotion of joy. I'm still trying to figure out how murder works into a good lesson for all. Doesn't make sense.

Most Christians will insist that God created Eden as a place where there would be only good, and that it was God's intention that Adam and Eve stay there forever. They seem to think that Adam somehow threw a glitch into God's plan and that God had to engage in some kind of frantic damage control when they ate the forbidden fruit. For this reason, they see Adam and Eve as horrible people who brought everything bad upon humanity. Mormons see it in exactly the opposite light. We believe their actions resulted in God's plan for humanity to unfold exactly as He knew it would and exactly as He knew was necessary in order for them to ultimately become like Him. They weren't going to do that wandering around Eden picking flowers all day every day for eternity. (I taught a lesson in the LDS women's auxiliary recently on the subject. I'm tempted to post it in the LDS DIR, so as not to disrupt this thread. It may possibly shed some more light on God and help you to see Him as a less despicable creature than you do. )

That sounds like a great idea. This thread has already gone way off topic and I'm about done here. I don't hate God. If there IS a God, I don't think he's the Abrahamic God of the Bible. I still pray, believe it or not. Almost every day. I'm just not sure "who" I'm talking to.

I don't think He enjoys seeing us suffer. That much I can say with confidence. I just think it's sometimes necessary that it happen. I'll give you what is probably a very poor analogy, but maybe you'll take something of value from it. Imagine a one-year-old child who has grown to fully trust his mother to care for him and protect him from harm. One day his mother takes him to the doctor's office and holds him still while someone jabs a long needle into his little thigh. He screams in pain, completely baffled by this inexplicable behavior of the one person he would never have expected this from. His mother tries to comfort him and tells him that everything's going to be okay. He needed to go through this painful experience in order that some greater good would take place years down the road. Of course, at a year old, he is absolutely incapable of understanding her explanation. If he could express himself in words, he'd probably call her a "sadistic megalomaniac."

I understand what you're saying here, but the mother was trying to help her son to have a better future life. If she murdered her child instead, explain how that's good for anyone as far as lessons to be learned?

To me, the bottom line is that life without free will would be pointless. Yes, some people will undoubtedly abuse the gift horribly, but if God were to take it away from us, what point would there even be for us to experience life? Anyway, that's my best shot. I don't suppose it will change a thing, but thank you for reading anyway.

I get that and it's totally ok. We aren't here to discuss things with only people we agree with. How boring.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well... Not always in the case of baseball. "You ca love me, or you can love me" isn't a choice -- it's an obligation. Love is never obligated.

It wouldn't be an obligation, though. It would be something one wants to do. Like I'd choose to love my mother more if she hugged me. However, if she kept hitting me all my life, then how can I learn to appreciate her? Is that something I should have in order to learn how to love?

That just doesn't make sense to me. So sorry.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hi Hockey,



Well, by definition, omniscient means possessing "unlimited" knowledge. That includes knowledge of the future. If your version of God does not possess knowledge of the future, then your God is not omniscient.

That said, even if we qualify God as possessing vastly superior knowledge and intelligence to humans, then we have a being capable of predicting with great accuracy how each and every human in the world will think and act. God is still largely culpable in this case. It would be comparable to a being with perhaps dozens or even hundreds of times more deductive reasoning than Sherlock Holmes... what could possibly get past such a God's notice?

God would have to be downgraded remarkably from the unimaginably high pedestal God is traditionally placed upon in order to truly be surprised by the evil in the world. For to not be surprised implies God had foreknowing, or at least a very strong suspicion if not fully omniscient, of the choices each and every sentient being throughout time has made and will make.

Regarding the Bible, I agree you can find evidence that God is not omniscient. I also think you can find evidence for the opposite. In my view, the Bible is very contradictory and nebulous, such that one can find evidence to support just about any position one desires with scriptural quotations. You can be a mass murderer and find scriptural support, and you can be a total pacifist and find scriptural support. I think the Bible ultimately serves more utility when viewed as a Rorschach test rather than a source of moral guidance: it tells us far more about the individual reader's moral and psychological makeup than it does about God's.

"You can be a mass murderer and find scriptural support, and you can be a total pacifist and find scriptural support."

I don't know, at least not for those wanting to be a follower of Christ. (1 Peter 2:21) (if you want to be an Israelite, maybe).

Dealing with this specific subject:
Christians must even 'love their enemy'. (Matthew 5:44) And it's important, for those wanting to be Christian, to obey Jesus! (John 15:14)

The following is what I posted under the thread, "Is Jesus God?" It fits this specific subject:

There are over one BILLION trinitarians professing Christianity, the vast majority of the 43,000 sects of Christendom. And how many of these really follow Jesus' command, to "love your enemy", or even to 'love their brothers'(John 13:34-35; John 15:10)? For the past 1600+ years, trinitarians have joined with their respective countries, and KILLED others, even their brothers! They've considered their national "heritage" more important than their spiritual "heritage", supporting their 'brothers-in-arms' over their spiritual brothers.....Catholics against Catholics, Protestants against Protestants.

Interesting that at John 13:34-35, Jesus said "all will know" His disciples, not by what they teach (although that is important), but by how they act -- how they love their brothers! How strange, the ones worshipping Jesus as God are, for the most part, less obedient than those who don't, who rather solely worship His Father, through Him!

It's difficult to be politically neutral, especially in the face of nationalism during a war, but obedience to God, and Jesus, doesn't stop just because it's unpopular, and causes hatred among others! Jesus said it would be a cause for hatred(John 15:17-19).

Reminds me of a G.K. Chesterton quote: "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

Take care.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Reminds me of a G.K. Chesterton quote: "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

I take immediate issue with this quote.
Christianity is easy to fall into and believe, it's designed to be.
The ones that have a hard time accepting it are those who approach it logically and not emotionally.