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How do immigrants create jobs and prosperity?

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I need someone to explain this to me.

I can't really see how immigrants benefit the host nation overall.

To start with a simplistic example - say 100,000 immigrants come to the country to do low-paid unskilled work.

They send a third of their pay back to their own country and spend the rest on general expenses for themselves.

If they had not come then those 100,000 jobs could be done by local people and that one third of the wages would not have left the country.

I don't get it.

replies, thanks
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Many legal immigrants come here with exceptional skills and capital. Look at all the old buildings that where built by true craftsmen in the past.

Modern immigrants like doctors comes to mind. They build buildings and create jobs and provide needed services.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Lower skill immigrants do the work which we won't.
Why work when government will pay us not to?
The easy dole is one of our biggest contributors to unemployment.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Lower skill immigrants do the work which we won't.
Why work when government will pay us not to?
The easy dole is one of our biggest contributors to unemployment.

Thas it in a nut shell Rev, many of todays kids don't have a work ethic like these imigrants have. They don't want to work long and hard to get ahead. They want what their parents have instantly and don't realise how long and hard most of us had to work to get what we have.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've heard too many potential workers say they're not gonna work til the unemployment checks run out.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Immigrants to the UK certainly have a greater entrepreneurial and get up and go skills than many of us natives.
Of course there are a lot of exceptions who are a drain on the economy. but on balance they fill vacancies that natives do not want, provide skills we do not have, and establish new businesses that give much needed employment.

The UK has always been a fertile ground for incomers.
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
I need someone to explain this to me.

I can't really see how immigrants benefit the host nation overall.

To start with a simplistic example - say 100,000 immigrants come to the country to do low-paid unskilled work.

They send a third of their pay back to their own country and spend the rest on general expenses for themselves.

If they had not come then those 100,000 jobs could be done by local people and that one third of the wages would not have left the country.

I don't get it.

replies, thanks

We are a country of immigrants. Everyone who is here has a immigrant history. My family came here in 1865 without skills and farmed. Education was important and each generation moved forward.

What I don't get is the complete lack of understanding that our nation was built on immigration on the part of the anti immigration people.

I don't see the immigrant as a drain but as a group who will eventually become part of the fabric of this country like generations of immigrants have done before.

But we have always had a history of hatred of the immigrant. We hated the Jews, Germans, Irish, Catholics, Japanese, Chinese, Muslims, Hispanics but each group has a history of settlement to this country and of giving back to this country both in service in the military and work.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
We are a country of immigrants. Everyone who is here has a immigrant history. My family came here in 1865 without skills and farmed. Education was important and each generation moved forward.

What I don't get is the complete lack of understanding that our nation was built on immigration on the part of the anti immigration people.

I don't see the immigrant as a drain but as a group who will eventually become part of the fabric of this country like generations of immigrants have done before.

But we have always had a history of hatred of the immigrant. We hated the Jews, Germans, Irish, Catholics, Japanese, Chinese, Muslims, Hispanics but each group has a history of settlement to this country and of giving back to this country both in service in the military and work.

:clap
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Lower skill immigrants do the work which we won't.
Why work when government will pay us not to?
The easy dole is one of our biggest contributors to unemployment.


Surely it would be better for the country then to sort out the unemployment benefit system than just go around it by having mass-immigration take care of the lack of workers?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I need someone to explain this to me.

I can't really see how immigrants benefit the host nation overall.

To start with a simplistic example - say 100,000 immigrants come to the country to do low-paid unskilled work.

They send a third of their pay back to their own country and spend the rest on general expenses for themselves.

If they had not come then those 100,000 jobs could be done by local people and that one third of the wages would not have left the country.

I don't get it.

replies, thanks
Let me get this straight:

- another country has to carry the burden of paying for the health care and education of raising a child to adulthood.

- this adult makes it through the screening process, satisfies the authorities that he will contribute to society and not be a burden on it, and is allowed to immigrate.

- he becomes gainfully employed at a job creating benefit for your society, or at least the people in society who own shares in the company he works for (likely including regular people - or their pension plans - saving for their retirement).

- he pays his taxes and spends the majority of the money he makes in your economy.

And you feel hard done by if he sends some money back home to support his family?

Are you joking?!
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
This really isn't the point at all.

An unskilled immigrant worker is not bringing any real benefit to the general population of the host country - he is merely doing what a local could do already and driving down wages.

The only people he helps are the middle classes and above who benefit from his need to accept an even lower wage. (ie: they benefit from his exploitation and as a consequence the general further exploitation of the local workers)

The fact that another country has 'paid' for his education etc. is completely irrelevant.

The 30% of salary is still leaving the host country - a local worker pays tax and also spends the rest of his salary in the home economy.

You have not demonstrated any benefit here to the host nation but have just come up with a sensationalist idea that I begrudge him ' helping his family' (I never implied that at all).

Don't you mean he is helping the families of the rich?
 
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Tamar

I am Jewish.
This really isn't the point at all.

An unskilled immigrant worker is not bringing any benefit to the country - he is merely doing what a local could do already.

The fact that another country has 'paid' for his education etc. is completely irrelevant.

The 30% of salary is still leaving the host country - a local worker pays tax and also spends the rest of his salary in the home economy.

You have not demonstrated any benefit here to the host nation but have just come up with a sensationalist idea that I begrudge him ' helping his family' (I never implied that at all).

Most of the waves of immigration were unskilled, many worked more then one job to survive. They lived in tenements in the cities of this country. Their children quit school to go to work and worked 12-14 hours a day. Children worked on the farms.

It was the unskilled immigrant and his children became educated.

Each generation bettered themselves. My grandmother was one of 13 children of a illiterate poor family who quit school in the 9th grade and went to work. Her son was the first to go to college and has a phd and taught at the college level.

So just because the immigrants are unskilled labor does not mean their children will not move forward.

Immigrants have a long history of sending money home to their families, they also have a history of serving in our military. They do the jobs that many Americans won't do. They pick the food, clean the streets, work in menial jobs and live a hard life. Their children speak english, and are being educated and will live better lives then their parents do. If you live in the United States then you have an immigrant past unless you are a native American. Only the Native people of the United States can claim they don't have an immigrant history.
 
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nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I'm not really talking about the history of immigration.

I'm more concerned about current day issues.

I'm sure if the big companies had their way they would be shipping in 1000's of boat people from around the world to 'help the economy'.

That would be good though because then you could buy a Latte for only $1 as opposed to $2.
 
There seems to be a lack of clarity here. Are we discussing legal or illegal immigration?
If an immigrant has the drive, skill and resources to enter this country legaly, then they are a definite asset, there is no question.
Sneeking across a border is an illegal and criminal act(federal offence) in and of itself and needs to be addressed as such. Aiding or employing said individuals should be punished to an even higher degree IMO.
Seeing these lines so often blurred is profoundly disturbing.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Perhaps we are discussing both.

You say if an immigrant has the 'drive, skill and resources' - how about if the immigrant is pushed into immigration through dire poverty?

In this case they are only 'driven' by poverty, have no special skills and certainly no resources. They could still be legal though.

How does this really help the host country?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This really isn't the point at all.
Isn't it?

An unskilled immigrant worker is not bringing any real benefit to the general population of the host country - he is merely doing what a local could do already and driving down wages.
Not really.

Exactly how many unskilled immigrants do you think are admitted to your country? The number isn't very high... and those who are let in only get to come in because it's been established that there's a need for them. IOW, without them, labour costst would be artifically high, meaning that the businesses you buy from are having to pay too much for their unskilled employees... and who do you think ends up paying for that?

Unless you're talking about refugees, but they're a whole other ball of wax. Refugees get let in not because of benefit to their host country, but out of desire not to be a bunch of heartless ******** who would leave someone to be killed by war, famine, or other nasty things in whatever hellhole they came from.

The only people he helps are the middle classes and above who benefit from his need to accept an even lower wage. (ie: they benefit from his exploitation and as a consequence the general further exploitation of the local workers)

The fact that another country has 'paid' for his education etc. is completely irrelevant.
No, it's not irrelevant. You're the one who put forward this idea of looking at it as a cost-benefit proposition. If you're going to argue that an unskilled immigrant creates less benefit for society than an unskilled native-born citizen, then the fact that the immigrant created less in the way of costs than the native-born citizen is just as relevant.

All else being equal, a person who immigrates as an adult represents much less in the way of tax expenditure than a native-born citizen, because the state never had to shell out money for the immigrant's elementary and secondary educaation. Also, the immigrant is less likely to be a burden on the public purse in the future, because if they think you're likely to end up on welfare, they don't let you in. Native-born citizens don't go through this sort of screening process.

The 30% of salary is still leaving the host country - a local worker pays tax and also spends the rest of his salary in the home economy.
Where are you getting this "30%" from?

My Dad was an immigrant - he was brought to Canada by my grandparents with his brother and sister. My family never sent money to relatives back home; the relatives back there were doing fine. I mean, they'd send Christmas and birthday presents there, but the relatives back there would send presents in return, so the net transfer was about zero.

You have not demonstrated any benefit here to the host nation but have just come up with a sensationalist idea that I begrudge him ' helping his family' (I never implied that at all).

Don't you mean he is helping the families of the rich?
No, I mean he's helping everyone.

If an immigrant gets a job on, say, an assembly lline, then he fulfils a need and contributes to the profit of that company. The investors in that company, including regular people saving for their retirement and pension funds that do the same thing for many people - including many lower-income people - gain as a result. This means that by a small increment, those people are better off. And if this means they get slightly higher income in retirement, then (assuming that Social Security works like Canadian old age benefits do) these people would lose out on some of their government retirement benefits as their income increases, meaning that you and every other taxpayer benefit from either more government services in other areas or lower tax rates.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Perhaps we are discussing both.

You say if an immigrant has the 'drive, skill and resources' - how about if the immigrant is pushed into immigration through dire poverty?

In this case they are only 'driven' by poverty, have no special skills and certainly no resources. They could still be legal though.

How does this really help the host country?
If the poverty is really that dire, then the person is a refugee, not a regular immigrant. Two completely separate things.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Of course here in Canada we have this 'hidden' work force on temporary foreign workers visas. I think its our government's way of getting around this whole 'immigrant' problem that nmartin is alluding to.
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
I'm not really talking about the history of immigration.

I'm more concerned about current day issues.

I'm sure if the big companies had their way they would be shipping in 1000's of boat people from around the world to 'help the economy'.

That would be good though because then you could buy a Latte for only $1 as opposed to $2.

I just noticed you are listed as being in South East Asia. I am curious are you an immigrant there? You are discussing immigration for a country you seem not to live in, why?

Location
South East Asia


Back to the question of history and immigration. It is absolutely an important part of the conversation because if you are talking of immigration to the US you are speaking about a country that was built by immigrants and has a long history of immigration of the poor from other countries.

Current immigration is no different, People coming here for a better life.
 
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