How do you Define God????

[Bird123]

How would define who would create Hell knowing someone would go there and who preaches, dies and resurrects to prevent you from going there, so that only a really, really foolish person would go there voluntarily and so that no one will say in Hell, "How did this happen? How did I get here?"

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. That defines you. According to that religion God created Hell knowing someone, no matter how foolish, would go there. How does God define Himself?

Blame is a petty thing. God should be at a Higher Level above such petty things. It doesn't matter how foolish the kid is, teach him to be smart no matter how long it takes.

 

[Bird123]

I'm sure that's very nice, but it just doesn't seem to actually mean anything! It doesn't seem to provide the slightest guidance for the million experiences, choices, dangers and temptations faced by every single human, every single day.

Agree with you on the last bit, though.

Eternity is a mighty long time. There is an awful lot of things to learn. There are an almost limitless number of experiences to live. Still, one will get there even taking baby steps.

 

[Kenny]

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. That defines you. According to that religion God created Hell knowing someone, no matter how foolish, would go there. How does God define Himself?

Blame is a petty thing. God should be at a Higher Level above such petty things. It doesn't matter how foolish the kid is, teach him to be smart no matter how long it takes.

Prisons are full of people that we are still trying to teach them to be smart. Higher Level has nothing to do with it.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Jesus again does as the father commanded him to do
1. the money changers- If you remember the scripture "the zeal for your house will consume me"
2. he was reassuring his mother, and this was after his baptism after he had received holy spirit and memory of himself in heaven with the father came to him. Jesus had already come out as the Messiah, So Jesus was speaking as the messiah.
3. His disciples were the ones his father had given him to care for and teach, and even says those that do the will of my father are my brother my sister and my mother

So earlier you confirmed anyone doing those things was sinning. Now I've shown Jesus pbuh did those things, they're not sins :/

He made a whip from cords and drove out the money changers, overturning their tables and scattering their belongings. The zeal for the house consumed him with rage as shown. His mother called him and he disobeyed her, yet in the Torah it Commands;

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long on the soil that the Lord your God has given you” (Exodus 20:12).

He fell short, no matter how you wish to sugarcoat it.

Jesus pbuh even prayed:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors."

These were all fulfilled prophecies by Jesus, No sin was committed, except doing what the father sent him to do. Also read the addiths and Koran, and you will see that Jesus committed no sin.

Why appeal o the Qur'an when it says, he was not crucified, and was without sin just like every other Prophet.

I can go on and on those examples, if you want stick to one example, but I see no sin in those passages.

Plain to see.

Yes but why would god put someone incapable of being obedient in charge of mankind? It doesnt make sense, because even if he chose to rely on god, god created him incapable of fulfilling his commands.

I've explained, but it's going over your head.

He wants us to strive, to struggle, to fall short, but then get up and keep trying and make effort. We may stumble, but the test is will you still have faith and cling to God no matter what? All you have to do is be sincere and work to better yourself by praying, fasting and being good to your family, friends and community. Also guarding the tongue and staying away from what is forbidden.

 

[anonymous9887]

There are different students who need to learn those problems. Still things do move forward slowly.

are you a theist or atheist?

 

[Muslim-UK]

1. God created Adam perfect, and like you said he was in charge as a messenger of god, and it was all up to Adam to remain faithful along with his wife. Were they as perfect human beings and no sinful tendencies going to obey god or Satan. God's right to rule is at stake here, there is more involved than you think.

If you would like check this chapter out, and it gives you a very reasonable explanation for why all this is going on.
Why Does God Allow Suffering?—The Reason Why Suffering Began | Bible Teach

didn't explain people born with defects.

7 The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

Satan is responsible for the evils of the World?

 

[anonymous9887]

Well I guess destruction is better than living in a fiery pit for eternity. On the other hand, destruction is just an excuse not to rise to a Higher Level and do the Right thing-----Fix all the kids.

you say fix the kids, but what if they keep refusing and want to do their own thing, which jeopardizes humanity?

 

[metis]

See my "faith statement" at the bottom of my posts for how I "define God".

 

[Nakosis]

How would you define a God who would create Hell knowing someone would go there?

How would you define the Quality of Justice in a God who creates an eternal punishment without the possibility of redemption?

(Isa 65:17) “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Lets say God sends folks to hell, or punishes the wicked.

In heaven, it'd be like nobody would remember any of this. Like waking from a dream and everything that happen in the dream fades away with the realization nothing that occurred had any consequence.

Pain, war, suffering were not real, not permanent, not remembered. All washed away and replaced with contentment, joy at your life in heaven.

Like a scary ride at Disneyland, no real threat to your safety or well being every really existed.

Would that make it different? Would hell be ok if it was all just basically a scary illusion?

Even if you're not ok with it, you ain't going to remember any of it. Just sitting around in Heaven certain that this peace and joy was all that you had ever experienced.

 

[anonymous9887]

didn't explain people born with defects.

7 The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

Satan is responsible for the evils of the World?

As we get further and further away from perfection so do conditions of mankind also. People born with defects is environmental or just our imperfect flesh.

Yes. Don't under estimate Satan's influence, he is like a hunter when it comes to trying to prove god a liar. Imagine if Satan had not chose to go against god and tempt Adam. Satan is the 1st cherub to attempt to disobey god, and he started a rebellion against god. Think about it, that is a huge step for an angel or jinn to deliberately disobey god, after seeing all of god's wonderful works.

 

[Kenny]

I've explained, but it's going over your head.

This statement suggests you are running out of a good defense.

So earlier you confirmed anyone doing those things was sinning. Now I've shown Jesus pbuh did those things, they're not sins :/

He made a whip from cords and drove out the money changers, overturning their tables and scattering their belongings. The zeal for the house consumed him with rage as shown. His mother called him and he disobeyed her, yet in the Torah it Commands;

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long on the soil that the Lord your God has given you” (Exodus 20:12).

He fell short, no matter how you wish to sugarcoat it.

No... he didn't fall short. It is your interpretation that fell short.

Jesus pbuh even prayed:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Out of context... they asked Jesus (pbuh) "teach us how to pray". He was teaching THEM how to pray. Jesus never had to ask for forgiveness as He said
"So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

and again...

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Why appeal o the Qur'an when it says, he was not crucified, and was without sin just like every other Prophet.

That is why I know that the Koran is wrong.

 

[anonymous9887]

So earlier you confirmed anyone doing those things was sinning. Now I've shown Jesus pbuh did those things, they're not sins :/

He made a whip from cords and drove out the money changers, overturning their tables and scattering their belongings. The zeal for the house consumed him with rage as shown. His mother called him and he disobeyed her, yet in the Torah it Commands;

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long on the soil that the Lord your God has given you” (Exodus 20:12).

He fell short, no matter how you wish to sugarcoat it.

Jesus pbuh even prayed:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Why appeal o the Qur'an when it says, he was not crucified, and was without sin just like every other Prophet.


Plain to see.


I've explained, but it's going over your head.

He wants us to strive, to struggle, to fall short, but then get up and keep trying and make effort. We may stumble, but the test is will you still have faith and cling to God no matter what? All you have to do is be sincere and work to better yourself by praying, fasting and being good to your family, friends and community. Also guarding the tongue and staying away from what is forbidden.

Your missing the point, yes in general those our sins, but we also have to understand why Jesus did those things. Yes I said those would be sins, but we cant apply one rule to all circumstances, since all circumstances differ.

they asked Jesus how they should pray and he gave them an example.

If we as parents want what is best for our children, can not see myself putting them to the test for myself. But I can see myself giving them everything, and all the guidance necessary and allow them to choose for themselves.

 

[anonymous9887]

So earlier you confirmed anyone doing those things was sinning. Now I've shown Jesus pbuh did those things, they're not sins :/

He made a whip from cords and drove out the money changers, overturning their tables and scattering their belongings. The zeal for the house consumed him with rage as shown. His mother called him and he disobeyed her, yet in the Torah it Commands;

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long on the soil that the Lord your God has given you” (Exodus 20:12).

He fell short, no matter how you wish to sugarcoat it.

Jesus pbuh even prayed:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Why appeal o the Qur'an when it says, he was not crucified, and was without sin just like every other Prophet.


Plain to see.


I've explained, but it's going over your head.

He wants us to strive, to struggle, to fall short, but then get up and keep trying and make effort. We may stumble, but the test is will you still have faith and cling to God no matter what? All you have to do is be sincere and work to better yourself by praying, fasting and being good to your family, friends and community. Also guarding the tongue and staying away from what is forbidden.

from one of Jesus own disciples
1 Peter 2:22

 

[Muslim-UK]

As we get further and further away from perfection so do conditions of mankind also. People born with defects is environmental or just our imperfect flesh.

Wait a minute, you said God is perfect, so why does He allow disabilities to form in the womb? Your excuse is their ungodliness, how so when people have lived in the way of their Lord to the best of their abilities?

Then you say it is also part environmental, which is what I said, so you agree on that point.

Yes. Don't under estimate Satan's influence, he is like a hunter when it comes to trying to prove god a liar. Imagine if Satan had not chose to go against god and tempt Adam. Satan is the 1st cherub to attempt to disobey god, and he started a rebellion against god. Think about it, that is a huge step for an angel or jinn to deliberately disobey god, after seeing all of god's wonderful works.

If Satan is responsible for the evil in this World, perhaps according to Christianity, it's him who causes disabilities?

Your missing the point, yes in general those our sins, but we also have to understand why Jesus did those things. Yes I said those would be sins, but we cant apply one rule to all circumstances, since all circumstances differ.

No you are moving the goalposts to justify why Jesus pbuh fell short, why he despaired, insulted, hurt and cursed. The Qur'an doesn't contain these stories, so I have no idea if they really happened, but they are in the Bible, and show sin on his part. Remember, he set the bar very high. If you look at a women with lust, then you have committed adultery, if you look at someone with anger, then again you have sinned.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

they asked Jesus how they should pray and he gave them an example.

Let's look at the context in Luke 11

1 "One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” <<<<<<They wanted to pray like he prayed.

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

from one of Jesus own disciples
1 Peter 2:22

The Jews showed he broke the rules of the Sabbath, the evidence recorded in the NT shows he sinned. Obviously his friends are not going to say he was in error.

If we as parents want what is best for our children, can not see myself putting them to the test for myself. But I can see myself giving them everything, and all the guidance necessary and allow them to choose for themselves.

So you as a father build a wonderful house with beautiful decor, running water, unlimited food and drink, in a beautiful location where old age and illness are no more.

You tell your children, be good to each other and your parents when they reach old age, obey God and do good works to inherit this mystery house. Or don't follow my wishes, be led astray by deceit and inherit ruins.

According to you, God got it wrong and everyone should get the wonderful house?

 

[Muslim-UK]

That is why I know that the Koran is wrong.

Well let's wait for your response to Paul's letter and that of Ignatius before I bring even more evidence showing his followers did not believe in crucifixion. We will see how Jesus pbuh, praying all night for forgiveness and mercy was answered by the One who hears.

btw what kind of Christian are you?

 

[Kenny]

Well let's wait for your response to Paul's letter and that of Ignatius before I bring even more evidence showing his followers did not believe in crucifixion. We will see how Jesus pbuh, praying all night for forgiveness and mercy was answered by the One who hears.

btw what kind of Christian are you?

I didn't see a question about Paul's letter... and I am a born-again Christian. Ignatius isn't on the table for discussion about what scripture says as he wasn't an apostle or prophet.

 

[Jedster]

You are open to all possibilities rather than restricting your view to a set of beliefs without questioning. Keep your eyes open. You never know what you might Discover.

This reminds me of a poem by Kabir:

I said to the wanting-creature inside me:
What is this river you want to cross?
There are no travelers on the river-road, and no road.
Do you see anyone moving about on that bank, or nesting?

There is no river at all, and no boat, and no boatman.
There is no tow rope either, and no one to pull it.
There is no ground, no sky, no time, no bank, no ford!

And there is no body, and no mind!
Do you believe there is some place that will make the
soul less thirsty?
In that great absence you will find nothing.

Be strong then, and enter into your own body;
there you have a solid place for your feet.
Think about it carefully!
Don't go off somewhere else!

Kabir says this: just throw away all thoughts of
imaginary things,
and stand firm in that which you are.

Kabir

 

[Muslim-UK]

I didn't see a question about Paul's letter... and I am a born-again Christian. Ignatius isn't on the table for discussion about what scripture says as he wasn't an apostle or prophet.

Paul travelled to Antioch and set up a Church there. Ignatius (35 – 107) was the Bishop of Antioch. His letter is important, but we can put it aside for now, no problem.

Christians from Greece were joining the Antioch community and Paul wrote to Greece with his version of events:

Corinthians 15 New International Version (NIV)

The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Here the spouter of lies is preaching his own Gospel. He claims Jesus' pbuh death and resurrection is written in the Scripture, where can we find it? Paul is trying hard to convince the audience, his is the correct Gospel, and if they don't accept then they're still in sin.

Why were followers of Jesus pbuh travelling the lands and preaching a different Gospel? Where were they getting their information of no crucifixion from?

 

[anonymous9887]

Wait a minute, you said God is perfect, so why does He allow disabilities to form in the womb? Your excuse is their ungodliness, how so when people have lived in the way of their Lord to the best of their abilities?

Then you say it is also part environmental, which is what I said, so you agree on that point.

If Satan is responsible for the evil in this World, perhaps according to Christianity, it's him who causes disabilities?

No you are moving the goalposts to justify why Jesus pbuh fell short, why he despaired, insulted, hurt and cursed. The Qur'an doesn't contain these stories, so I have no idea if they really happened, but they are in the Bible, and show sin on his part. Remember, he set the bar very high. If you look at a women with lust, then you have committed adultery, if you look at someone with anger, then again you have sinned.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).




Let's look at the context in Luke 11

1 "One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” <<<<<<They wanted to pray like he prayed.

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”



The Jews showed he broke the rules of the Sabbath, the evidence recorded in the NT shows he sinned. Obviously his friends are not going to say he was in error.

So you as a father build a wonderful house with beautiful decor, running water, unlimited food and drink, in a beautiful location where old age and illness are no more.

You tell your children, be good to each other and your parents when they reach old age, obey God and do good works to inherit this mystery house. Or don't follow my wishes, be led astray by deceit and inherit ruins.

According to you, God got it wrong and everyone should get the wonderful house?

1. We are living in a fallen world. He is perfect, but the things we see are a result of Adam, Satan, Eve's disobedience. We are all vulnerable to imperfection, it can happen to anybody, and this happens by natural process, god is not involved like in surah 3:6.
2. Well I guess we agree on environmental, but surah 3:6 doesn't agree with us.
3. Satan is responsible for misleading the earth with sin like pollution, murder, war, pornography, he influences the big guns.
4. Again Jesus fulfilled scripture for example when he spoke to the pharisees psalm 82 was in play or many of the psalms are in play. BTW Jesus did not break the Sabbath, the Pharisees were basically apostates, so why would you believe them?

Prayer
- they saw Jesus praying
- then they asked lord teach "us" to pray
- when "you" pray, pray like ...


The problem with the illustration of the house, is that we come into a world with terrible problems, the life here on earth today is not pretty, and as individuals have no control over it. What does make sense is god putting us in a perfect world with perfect people and a great plan for us. But as I said Adam ruined things for us, and chose death. In the bible, the paradise earth will come about again.

 

[anonymous9887]

Paul travelled to Antioch and set up a Church there. Ignatius (35 – 107) was the Bishop of Antioch. His letter is important, but we can put it aside for now, no problem.

Christians from Greece were joining the Antioch community and Paul wrote to Greece with his version of events:

Corinthians 15 New International Version (NIV)

The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Here the spouter of lies is preaching his own Gospel. He claims Jesus' pbuh death and resurrection is written in the Scripture, where can we find it? Paul is trying hard to convince the audience, his is the correct Gospel, and if they don't accept then they're still in sin.

Why were followers of Jesus pbuh travelling the lands and preaching a different Gospel? Where were they getting their information of no crucifixion from?

Obviously Jesus apostles were testifying about Jesus resurrection. Let's go with peter who saw Jesus after the resurrection John 21:15
2 Peter 3:15 look what Peter the one who witnessed Jesus resurrection says about Paul
2 Peter 2:21-24 Peter again affirms Jesus death
1 John 2:2 the apostle John testifies of Jesus sacrifice
John 21:20-21 the apostle John was present at the resurrection