How do you define your religion as a practice?

[Unveiled Artist]

This occured to me and I dont know if I can answer it myself though it sounds like it makes sense?

We define our beliefs by our theology, ideology (what you practice), beliefs (why you practice), but can we define our religion by just the practices themselves?

Some religious, say eastern, dont refer to their beliefs as beliefs but practice.

How would you describe what your beliefs as practices?

If that makes sense?

 

[Sunstone]

There's a story that Joseph Campbell tells about the Western tendency to assume religion is about belief. He was attending a conference on religion in Japan, Carlita, and on one of the days of the conference a group of Shinto priests performed a dance for the attendees.

According to Campbell, one of the Westerners -- a famous scholar -- attending the conference asked the head priest after the dance what adherents to Shinto believed.

The priest pondered the question for sometime before answering, "We don't believe, we just dance". But the scholar couldn't believe his ears and badgered the priest for sometime to declare what he believed before finally giving up.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

This occured to me and I dont know if I can answer it myself though it sounds like it makes sense?

We define our beliefs by our theology, ideology (what you practice), beliefs (why you practice), but can we define our religion by just the practices themselves?

Some religious, say eastern, dont refer to their beliefs as beliefs but practice.

How would you describe what your beliefs as practices?

If that makes sense?

I think that's a very good point. For most indigenous groups, what we in the West call their "religion" is mainly associated with their practices--anthropologists and missionaries have often spent years trying to figure out, and often end up creating, beliefs of the indigenous. There is often remarkably little "belief," and even among African and Chinese Folk religions, etc., there is absolutely no "theology" to be found either. Such religions are often primarily concerned with practices that are seen as affecting day-to-day existence and survival.

@Carlita , earlier we were taking about the shinin' or the gift, and I think that's a lot of what most indigenous and folk religions are based in. The reality is that you can have those folk practices, and still be Christian, Hellenistic, even atheistic...the practices aren't "beliefs" except that you believe that they work...

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

There's a story that Joseph Campbell tells about the Western tendency to assume religion is about belief. He was attending a conference on religion in Japan, Carlita, and on one of the days of the conference a group of Shinto priests performed a dance for the attendees.

According to Campbell, one of the Westerners -- a famous scholar -- attending the conference asked the head priest after the dance what adherents to Shinto believed.

The priest pondered the question for sometime before answering, "We don't believe, we just dance". But the scholar couldn't believe his ears and badgered the priest for sometime to declare what he believed before finally giving up.

And I notice that your religion is "Erotic Dance"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think that's a very good point. For most indigenous groups, what we in the West call their "religion" is mainly associated with their practices--anthropologists and missionaries have often spent years trying to figure out, and often end up creating, beliefs of the indigenous. There is often remarkably little "belief," and even among African and Chinese Folk religions, etc., there is absolutely no "theology" to be found either. Such religions are often primarily concerned with practices that are seen as affecting day-to-day existence and survival.

@Carlita , earlier we were taking about the shinin' or the gift, and I think that's a lot of what most indigenous and folk religions are based in. The reality is that you can have those folk practices, and still be Christian, Hellenistic, even atheistic...the practices aren't "beliefs" except that you believe that they work...

EACTLY Exactly.

That's why it's so hard to explain my beliefs because they aren't "beliefs" they are practices that, if looked at from a religiou point of view, it would just look like doing things without meaning. Yet, they do have meaning. I keep thinking I don't need idology, mythology, and so forth to define what I do. What I do is who I am.

I agree with what you said. Good insight.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's a story that Joseph Campbell tells about the Western tendency to assume religion is about belief. He was attending a conference on religion in Japan, Carlita, and on one of the days of the conference a group of Shinto priests performed a dance for the attendees.

According to Campbell, one of the Westerners -- a famous scholar -- attending the conference asked the head priest after the dance what adherents to Shinto believed.

The priest pondered the question for sometime before answering, "We don't believe, we just dance". But the scholar couldn't believe his ears and badgered the priest for sometime to declare what he believed before finally giving up.

That's beautiful.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

EACTLY Exactly.

That's why it's so hard to explain my beliefs because they aren't "beliefs" they are practices that, if looked at from a religiou point of view, it would just look like doing things without meaning. Yet, they do have meaning. I keep thinking I don't need idology, mythology, and so forth to define what I do. What I do is who I am.

I agree with what you said. Good insight.

From what you've described before, your traditions probably have roots in Africa and are related to the various syncretic religions of the Caribbean and South America. I think that's neat, because whatever traditions my family lines had were lost sometime before we got to me, and although I knew several from my grandparents' generation, we lived far enough away that I never got to hear the old stories and such, like seeing the practices they might have had (and I'm sure did have, because down most lines they were farmers from lots of different areas up until my parents/ generation.

I think @Cassandra suggested you should call it Carlitaology or something like that, didn't she? I think that's a hoot!

 

[Sunstone]

And I notice that your religion is "Erotic Dance"

Of course, erotic dance is a joke, but there's actually a bit of truth in the joke. The closest I get to religion is a practice -- the practice of meditation. Some years ago, a friend would take me to erotic dance clubs now and then. Being a total geek, I almost always used the occasions to meditate on the nature of desire. My theory was that it was a nearly perfect venue for that sort of meditation, and I think it actually paid off. I learned a great deal about desire and fear through those meditations, and how the two things are connected.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

From what you've described before, your traditions probably have roots in Africa and are related to the various syncretic religions of the Caribbean and South America. I think that's neat, because whatever traditions my family lines had were lost sometime before we got to me, and although I knew several from my grandparents' generation, we lived far enough away that I never got to hear the old stories and such, like seeing the practices they might have had (and I'm sure did have, because down most lines they were farmers from lots of different areas up until my parents/ generation.

I think @Cassandra suggested you should call it Carlitaology or something like that, didn't she? I think that's a hoot!

Yeah. My mother is a military brat, so she remember some things she learned in Iran. My aunt was too young but she was born there too. They moved other places but mostly remembered things their mother told them a lot my mother says are superstitions. Then my grandmother sold all her antiques, everything, all of our history she just gave it away to a friend rather than giving it to her family. Sometimes my mother would pop up with a memory or say some stories that she said she doesn't believe but just remembers. She's the only one in my family that knows there is some link between what she was taught and her interest in witchcraft (but I dont think she knows the origin), and Native American beliefs. It's like we are pulled to the center of a black hole.

For now, I know that traditions can not always exist in the past... families make their traditions in addition to the old and pass it on to their family. I don't plan to have a family, but that is a goal for my siblings and my mother (rest of my family are hard core Christian). I think my mother would appreciate the little things I put together because they come from family and that means a lot more than labels like New Age, Syncretics, Paganism, and all that jazz (I mean jazz, no pun).

I did tell Cassandra that Carlita is part of my family name. My father's name is Carl so I'm his little 'ita. He wants us to keep his last name in the family, so hopefully my brother who ran away may keep it or if I get married, I'll ask my wife if we can keep my name. Regardless, I just don't understand the confliction between religions.

If religions is what we do then when I see someone act or say something, then I know that is who they are displaying, a part of themselves.

Anyway, I could go on.. I write more on here than I do in my actual book that I would like to write more than a couple of sentences in. Was thinking of your idea and which thread I would use for it.

 

[buddhist]

My religious faith requires practice, to transform belief into knowledge. Transforming belief into knowledge is like reading a map (the belief) and actually travelling the path outlined by the map (practice which brings knowledge).

To believe without practice is like reading a map and delusionally believe you've gotten to your destination.

 

[Quintessence]

To believe without practice is like reading a map and delusionally believe you've gotten to your destination.

I'm seriously tempted to put that in my signature. It's a much more eloquent way of speaking about the problem of armchair religion.

When religion is construed to be about belief, by extension religion also becomes something that is easy. It doesn't take much work to accept an idea compared to the physical labor of doing. Furthermore, when religion is construed to be about belief, discussions about religion all too often revolve around proof. Drives me bonkers. I keep telling these people that if they want proof of my religion, they're welcome to send me a video camera and I'll tape my next ritual.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At first I always felt that you have to believe before you practice. Then after believing so much to where I got lazy, I started practicing and forgot to believe. Now, it's like divorcing myself from needing a belief and pushing myself to actually do it. With anything, really. I have to study for a math test. If I believe I can do math that doesn't mean anything until I practice. Then that knowledge @buddhist (hint) you get is when the test results come. Your realizing doing is more affective then believing.

Takes awhile to figure that out, I found there is soo much to do.

 

[Laika]

When I was still a communist, the emphasis was placed on "unity of theory and practice". the measure of the belief was it wasn't about what you believed, but that you were willing to act on it and did so. In this thread, that sounds more like a "non-western"belief system, and I completely understand why people downplay the theology. A focus on "belief" in isolation is a reciepe for fanaticism, as it is much more perfectionist. accepting the imperfect nature of religious practice is much more liberating.

 

[Native]

We define our beliefs by our theology, ideology (what you practice), beliefs (why you practice), but can we define our religion by just the practices themselves?

I define my beliefs in both Mythology and Cosmology. Ancient Myths of Creation really holds all informations and modern astronomical images and informations can go together in a very fruitfull way.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the Universe. This is what Myths of Creation speaks about and what modern cosmology deals with.

The specific religious/mythological/cosmological practice comes when one follows the seasonal changes and it´s given life conditions where ever you are - and the moral issues comes when one respect all life and have fine and caring relations with other humans.

Best Wishes and a Happy New Year

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I define my beliefs in both Mythology and Cosmology. Ancient Myths of Creation really holds all informations and modern astronomical images and informations can go together in a very fruitfull way.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the Universe. This is what Myths of Creation speaks about and what modern cosmology deals with.

The specific religious/mythological/cosmological practice comes when one follows the seasonal changes and it´s given life conditions where ever you are - and the moral issues comes when one respect all life and have fine and caring relations with other humans.

Best Wishes and a Happy New Year

Welcome to RF!

 

[arthra]

can we define our religion by just the practices

Of course as people "practice" their religion over time there are identifiable practices... so that is a "culture" you could say that is related to a belief or a religion. Some practices are identifiable. Baha'is have certain practices... We avoid alcohol... We avoid partisan politics... We pray daily... and so on. There are identifiable practices in the way people observe fasting or observe Holy Days. For me the practices though are only the outer shell of my religion and without the beliefs the practices are but an outer shell with little meaning.

 

[LuisDantas]

Religion is a means to an end. The pursuit, expression and nurture of moral and social values.

It does not have to involve belief, and in fact benefits from avoiding it as much as possible.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was thinking, coming from my cultural background, that belief "why" you practice and that would have a huge influence on "what" you practice (the ACT itself) and the motivation for doing so.

For example:

I believe (this is why) that place an offering of an element, say water, in front of the Gohonzon (the Dharma) means I not only read the Dharma but it becomes my life. That is why I practice; this is my belief.

That is not a bad thing to have belief/why and motivation to do so.

The difference between belief-only religions and practice-religions in my point, is that belied-only religions "core" of their religion is not based on what they do 1st but their needs to be a requirement why and what you believe first. Why praybif you dont know why you do so? Why go to church if you have no motivational reason to do so.

What I like about my practice is I dont have to know why I pray to the Dharma because the act of praying IS why I practice.

To take this further....

I believe the Dharma is a reflection of myself. As a Buddha there is no separation from the Dharma and my mind and self (not ego self).

The reflection of myself is my relationship with nature. The basics of this relationship is the elements and actual practice. Why do I do these thing? Ritual and prayer to the sun and mediumship?

Honestly, I dont know. Its not a belief-based religion. The act of ritual and physic manifestation thereof IS my belief. So I feel in order to believe why we want to practice we establish the act of practice first.

In Catholicism, for example, is a act-religion. When you are baptized you not need to believe for you to be Christian. You are Christian regardless your belief according to the Church.

However, because of my religion (lifestyle) and practice, since I do not practice in the Church I personally am not a believer (I acept what the Church says; I disagree)

So, to wrap up dont throw away why and what you practice because practice is more important. See belief important "too" because your practice IS your belief and visa vera.

When I do ritual in front of the sun I dont need visualization/intent/belief to know what I do and its results is real. The ACT itself is the belief. Thats why belief is important. Why do I practice/believe? Not because of faith but because it is real; it is my life; it works.

So I make belief my practice rather than base my practice on belief. That is the difference and how I define my belief as a practice.

Without that, why practice? Why flap your arma if you have no sense of why you do so? Say your attempt to fly? But we DO know. Thats not the core. Its the actual practice that IS the belief.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

- but can we define our religion by just the practices themselves?

It's actually much easier for me to define my "religion" by saying that I practice mindfulness and meditation. The rest of it is packaging.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

In China you can't ask "What is her religion" (no word for "religion", as in many languages): the question is "What does she worship?" All pagan religions are defined by their practices. Obviously people believe things, but that is not the crucial matter. Belief only becomes central in secondary, self-styled revealed religions like the Abrahamic ones. If some "prophet" tells people they've got it all wrong, he has to explain what constitutes getting it right, and hey presto! you have a creed to believe in. Incidentally, I've never considered it before, but isn't it interesting that all the "prophets" were men? Do women have more sense?