How do you detect "design"?

[Eli G]

... I don’t find that argument very convincing...............do we have cancer, and earthqquakes because of men?

Do you think that if humanity gladly accepted the guidance of the Creator, He would not help them evade natural disasters that serve a beneficial function for the planet?

IMO, cancer is a result of human activity without real knowledge and control. The Creator is not responsible for the harm that humans cause to themselves.

 

[leroy]

Do you think that if humanity gladly accepted the guidance of the Creator, He would not help them evade natural disasters that serve a beneficial function for the planet?

IMO, cancer is a result of human activity without real knowledge and control. The Creator is not responsible for the harm that humans cause to themselves.

Even assuming that cancer was caused by ourselves and even granting that God is not *responsible* for the harm that we are causing to ourselves………….why wouldn’t a loving God prevent that harm?...........
I AM SURE YOU HAVE 100+ explanations………. But at least intuitively it seems that God cold have done it better.

 

[Eli G]

God will fix all damage we are suffering right now. He is asking us to believe in his promises. Jesus proved that he can control natural phenomena, cure sicknesses, provide enough food for everyone, ... He will be the King in the earth cleansed after the current human system of things is taken out of the way.

Rev. 11:16 And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

 

[shunyadragon]

But the thing is that actually the world is perfect ... but men destroyed it.

The thing is?!?!?! Are you proposing humans have the ability over God determining the nature of God's Creation.

 

[shunyadragon]

Only a burned bot repeat three times the same paragraph.

I'm surprised that no moderators notice these bot errors and fix them before they start repeating non-stop in all threads and they can't control it in the end.

Don't they know that this is how forums end up being destroyed by cyber bugs?

PS: Then don't say that I didn't warn you to help you.

The nature of our physical existence does not involve random processes.

All outcomes of cause and effect events occur within a limited range of outcomes limited by NAtural LAws and processes. The variability in possible outcomes is fractal based on Chaos theory. The only thing that is random is timing of an event.

 

[Eli G]

OTOH, would a bot argue back or just continue with a programmed whine? It would be possible to program a bot to complain about bots. Now I'm getting a headache. Now I'm getting a headache. Now I'm getting a headache.

And I wonder if, in addition to programming atheist bots, there were others programmed to defend the existence of a Creator, what would happen? Would they kill each other?

 

[shunyadragon]

I agree with this. Random is how things appear, if you do not understand the hidden logic.

Hidden logic?!?! I prefer contemporary science and math.

The ancient people did not have modern science to help them explain the natural world with logic. E=MC2 is not obvious. Most things we see as rational today, they saw as being in the dark. To create rational order in this darkness; their version of a black box, they assumed the whims of the gods. The whims of the gods, did not mean the gods were random. Rather it meant that humans were not advanced enough to understand their logic, since the logic of the gods, was way beyond humans and had an order that did not know. Why have a god of the ocean, who has no clue about water or why he made fish? That would make him random. Instead he knew what he was doing, and if there was a tidal wave, he had his reason. But the humans could not anticipate this. Many consulted oracles for a light in the dark. The God may give a hint.

Statistics is an modern oracle tool, to help those in the dark, make predictions. It is a useful tool. A smaller man with a chain saw can make a stronger man with an ax appear less productive. This oracle is a math chain saw. It is applied science called pure science, since pure is rational but applied can use tricks; unnatural materials not from nature for a magic trick.

Because the tool had lots of merit and increased productivity, the oracle tool morphed into the god of the black box. When the term intelligent Designed was coined, it led to an Atheist panic, since those words challenged the god of the black box. If it was true, the god of the black box would be superseded by god of the lighted box; logic. It would be the age of reason all over again.

Applied science was moving fast; post WWII, especially in the 1950's. Making new drugs was one area that was a big money maker. However, making drugs was a long difficult process, if you do not understand the cause and effect between the drugs and the patient. The growing industry needed lot of skilled workers, but there was not enough trained experts, who could make drugs on the fly.

An applied mathematician tool helped bypass the need for special knowledge and logic, in favor of a black box assumption and the statistical experimental design; the math chain saw for harvesting drugs. The black box means you no longer needed all the extra knowledge and ingenuity of Thomas Edison. You could less be educated and specialized; less expensive, but still more productive by using an assembly line experimental design tool. Somewhere, people forgot about the using a tool, due to the wealth created, and assumed the tool defined reality; random, and not just a cost savings and profit.

I would challenge any Pharmaceutical company to get rid of the tool; chain saw, to prove me wrong. Most would be in the dark without their god for light in the dark. This is called the scientific method but it is more than science; mysticism.

This I have difficulty comprehending in terms of science and math.

 

[YoursTrue]

""Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes."

 

[shunyadragon]

""Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes."

Incomplete. the nothing he is referring to is Quantum nothingness at xero point energy or "ground state," and the gravity the is referring to is Quantum Gravity.

We have been here several times before like throwing a dog a ball, It always seems to come back.

How the Physics of Nothing Underlies Everything | Quanta Magazine

The key to understanding the origin and fate of the universe may be a more complete understanding of the vacuum.

www.quantamagazine.org

Quantum Nothingness​

Nothing started to seem like something in the 20th century, as physicists came to view reality as a collection of fields: objects that fill space with a value at each point (the electric field, for instance, tells you how much force an electron will feel in different places). In classical physics, a field’s value can be zero everywhere so that it has no influence and contains no energy. “Classically, the vacuum is boring,” said Daniel Harlow, a theoretical physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “Nothing is happening.”

But physicists learned that the universe’s fields are quantum, not classical, which means they are inherently uncertain. You’ll never catch a quantum field with exactly zero energy. Harlow likens a quantum field to an array of pendulums — one at each point in space — whose angles represent the field’s values. Each pendulum hangs nearly straight down but jitters back and forth.

Left alone, a quantum field will stay in its minimum-energy configuration, known as its “true vacuum” or “ground state.” (Elementary particles are ripples in these fields.) “When we talk about the vacuum of a system, we have in mind in some loose way the preferred state of the system,” said Garcia Garcia.

Most of the quantum fields that fill our universe have one, and only one, preferred state, in which they’ll remain for eternity. Most, but not all.

 

[McBell]

""Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes."

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.​

​

~Bertrand Russell​

 

[YoursTrue]

Incomplete. the nothing he is referring to is Quantum nothingness at xero point energy, and the gravity the is referring to is Quantum Gravity.

We have been here several times before like throwing a dog a ball, It always seems to come back.

How the Physics of Nothing Underlies Everything | Quanta Magazine

The key to understanding the origin and fate of the universe may be a more complete understanding of the vacuum.

www.quantamagazine.org

Quantum Nothingness​

Nothing started to seem like something in the 20th century, as physicists came to view reality as a collection of fields: objects that fill space with a value at each point (the electric field, for instance, tells you how much force an electron will feel in different places). In classical physics, a field’s value can be zero everywhere so that it has no influence and contains no energy. “Classically, the vacuum is boring,” said Daniel Harlow, a theoretical physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “Nothing is happening.”

But physicists learned that the universe’s fields are quantum, not classical, which means they are inherently uncertain. You’ll never catch a quantum field with exactly zero energy. Harlow likens a quantum field to an array of pendulums — one at each point in space — whose angles represent the field’s values. Each pendulum hangs nearly straight down but jitters back and forth.

Left alone, a quantum field will stay in its minimum-energy configuration, known as its “true vacuum” or “ground state.” (Elementary particles are ripples in these fields.) “When we talk about the vacuum of a system, we have in mind in some loose way the preferred state of the system,” said Garcia Garcia.

Most of the quantum fields that fill our universe have one, and only one, preferred state, in which they’ll remain for eternity. Most, but not all.

So then what do you think? In your opinion, did the universe come from Quantum Nothingness? And if so, how so, or maybe it is that scientists haven't figured it out yet.

 

[shunyadragon]

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.​

​

~Bertrand Russell​

better yet thinks he understands based on intentional ignorance,

 

[YoursTrue]

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.​

​

~Bertrand Russell​

So then, did the universe come from nothing? Quantum Nothingness? It's really a yes or no question...

 

[McBell]

So then, did the universe come from nothing? Quantum Nothingness? It's really a yes or no question...

I do not know.

 

[YoursTrue]

better yet thinks he understands based on intentional ignorance,

Aw, come on -- did the universe come from nothing? No cause? You know the answer, don't you? (You and McBell so far)

 

[McBell]

better yet thinks he understands based on intentional ignorance,

Personally, I would change the word "stupid" to "ignorant"

An ignorant man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.​

 

[YoursTrue]

I do not know.

OK, sorry, I apologize. I said you know the answer. I was wrong. So now -- it's up to Shunyadragon to be honest. Thank you for your honesty, though.

 

[Eli G]

The news of the day: "Maybe this new discovery is..."

Tomorrow's: "That discovery was not... but perhaps this new discovery is..."

Next month's news: "Something has just been discovered that may explain why..."

The following year's news: "A new discovery has shattered everything previously thought about..."

Keep sleeping like this, the catastrophe is coming and you still continue to believe the next dream somebody had.

 

[YoursTrue]

Personally, I would change the word "stupid" to "ignorant"

An ignorant man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.​

Yeah, well I guess you understood Dr. Hawking's report about Quantum Nothingness if he made that report which Shunyadragon spoke about. Naturally you both are not ignorant.
And -- speaking of translating statements, would you and Shunyadragon say that humans are monkeys, according to -- Cladistics?

 

[F1fan]

Granted………..things don’t seem to be perfect. And I admit that this is a valid and strong objection against Christian theism.

And not only that things aren't perfect, like rain ruining your holiday weekend. I mean not perfect in that there are children born with defects and some even born with fatal diseases. I'm not sure why a designer would include elements like that in the design of human biology.

See how easy it is to admit that my opponents have good arguments?...................

If only you listened to how they explain you have terrible arguments.

Why can´t you do the same?......I mean I could also play skeptic and ask you for evidence that the world is not perfect………..and then reply “no that is not evidence because I say so”…………. But I don’t do that because I don’t like to play dishonest games.

You aren't interested in discourse and learning, and I won't play your act of being naive. You have lost every point that you have obsessed over, only to take a short break and come up with some other nonsense. You creationists have an appropriate label because you are very creative in how you work hard to avoid learning science.