Oh the Humanity
New Member
I'm no religious nut, but this is just plain false. Please provide a blow-by-blow account of how ATP-synthase came to exist. Thanks.
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How do you detect "design"?
- Thread starter TagliatelliMonster
- Start date
I'm no religious nut, but this is just plain false. Please provide a blow-by-blow account of how ATP-synthase came to exist. Thanks.
It is late, and I am not in the mood to respond to 'Intelligent Design' claims that have no basis in science. I will respond tomorrow concerning ATP-synthesis.
Your statement above puts you in the Religious Nut-Hood. I will respond, but with all claims of "Irreducible Complexity" all you can do is make vague claims of 'arguing from ignorance,'
The hypothesis the 'Intelligent Design' Religious Nut-Hood folk above to falsify in the positive is determine that ATP-synthesis cannot come about naturally.
Methodological Naturalism cannot falsify negative propositions.
Oh the Humanity
New Member
I'm not making a claim. I'm asking for you to back up your statement.
Thanks.
If you think that, you have already blown your credibility.
Yawn. Demonstrate it's emergents or admit you can't. It's that simple.
How ridiculous!If ATP-synthase could "come about naturally", evolutionists would have no problem explaining the origin of life from inorganic matter.
Much of what you read around these parts is pure nonsense.
PS: And YES, I am a Jehovah's Witness, a devout believer and practitioner of true Christianity... and I do not believe in the myth that evolutionists invented that believers are not rational and scientifically thinking people, like everything they repeat to each other to please themselves.
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The credibility problem is most definitely yours and the advocates of Intelligent Design, and failure to do the research yourself. It took me a few minutes to come up with the first, Your educational background may be an issue since you are not willing to do a search and answer your question,
It is not that simple. I am already reviewing an article on the subject, How is your knowledge in advanced biochemistry, and evolution and abiogenesis chemistry.
The critical thinkers have objected to several aspects of your posting. But you make a lot of enemies with comments like the following. You demand respect but give none:
What is your educational background to even remotely understand the biochemistry of ATP synthesis. Do you even know what it is?
If ATP-synthase could "come about naturally", evolutionists would have no problem explaining the origin of life from inorganic matter.
Much of what you read around these parts is pure nonsense.
PS: And YES, I am a Jehovah's Witness, a devout believer and practitioner of true Christianity... and I do not believe in the myth that evolutionists invented that believers are not rational and scientifically thinking people, like everything they repeat to each other to please themselves.
Unbelievable bitterness and sarcasm. I am not an atheist, and I seriously object to your accrid attitude toward atheists. As a Theist I have seriously questioned you line of reasoning on many things.
In nature there is design, which for an evolutionist occurs simply for some reason that still remains unexplained...
That pattern that can be called "natural," like that of snowflakes, is evidently the result of an intelligent process designed to keep functioning just as it was programmed to happen. In a dialogue between the Creator and Job, he asks him some interesting questions about that He had created and still to this very day are following the statutes imposed to them:
Job 38:3 Brace yourself, please, like a man;
I will question you, and you inform me.
4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
8 And who barricaded the sea behind doors
When it burst out from the womb,
9 When I clothed it with clouds
And wrapped it in thick gloom,
10 When I established my limit for it
And put its bars and doors in place,
11 And I said, 'You may come this far, and no further;
Here is where your proud waves will stop?
12 Have you ever commanded the morning
Or made the dawn know its place,
13 To take hold of the ends of the earth
And to shake the wicked out of it?
14 It is transformed like clay under a seal,
And its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 But the light of the wicked is held back from them,
And their raised arm is broken.
16 Have you gone down to the sources of the sea
Or explored the deep waters?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you understood the vast expanse of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all of this.
19 In which direction does the light reside?
And where is the place of darkness,
20 That you should take it to its territory
And understand the paths to your home?
21 Do you know this because you were already born
And the number of your years is great?
22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of battle and war?
24 From what direction is light scattered,
And from where does the east wind blow on the earth?
25 Who has cut a channel for the flood
And he made a path for the thunderous storm cloud,
26 To make it rain where no man lives,
On the wilderness where there are no humans,
27 To satisfy devastated wastelands
And cause the grass to sprout?
28 Does the rain have a father,
Or who fathered the dewdrops?
29 From whose womb did the ice emerge,
And who gave birth to the frost of heaven
30 When the waters are covered as if with stone,
And the surface of the deep waters is frozen solid?
31 Can you tie the ropes of the Kiʹmah constellation
Or untie the cords of the Keʹsil constellation?
32 Can you lead out a constellation in its season
Or guide the Ash constellation along with its sons?
33 Do you know the laws governing the heavens,
Or can you impose their authority on the earth?
34 Can you raise your voice to the clouds
To cause a flood of water to cover you?
35 Can you send out lightning bolts?
Will they come and say to you, 'Here we are!'
36 Who put wisdom within the clouds
Or gave understanding to the sky phenomenon?
37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds,
Or who can tip over the water jars of heaven
38 When the dust pours into a mass
And the clods of earth stick together?
39 Can you hunt prey for a lion
Or satisfy the appetites of young lions
40 When they crouch in their lairs
Or lie in ambush in their dens?
41 Who prepares food for the raven
When his young cry to God for help
And wander about because there is nothing to eat?
It is said that it is very rare that you can find two snowflakes exactly alike, so what natural process would create such a variety of symmetries that do not even repeat? A natural process is supposed to repeat the same results under the same conditions...however, that doesn't happen with snowflake designs specifically.
Sometimes you just need to sit back and be a little humble, stop the attacks of arrogance, and observe...
That pattern that can be called "natural," like that of snowflakes, is evidently the result of an intelligent process designed to keep functioning just as it was programmed to happen. In a dialogue between the Creator and Job, he asks him some interesting questions about that He had created and still to this very day are following the statutes imposed to them:
Job 38:3 Brace yourself, please, like a man;
I will question you, and you inform me.
4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
8 And who barricaded the sea behind doors
When it burst out from the womb,
9 When I clothed it with clouds
And wrapped it in thick gloom,
10 When I established my limit for it
And put its bars and doors in place,
11 And I said, 'You may come this far, and no further;
Here is where your proud waves will stop?
12 Have you ever commanded the morning
Or made the dawn know its place,
13 To take hold of the ends of the earth
And to shake the wicked out of it?
14 It is transformed like clay under a seal,
And its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 But the light of the wicked is held back from them,
And their raised arm is broken.
16 Have you gone down to the sources of the sea
Or explored the deep waters?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you understood the vast expanse of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all of this.
19 In which direction does the light reside?
And where is the place of darkness,
20 That you should take it to its territory
And understand the paths to your home?
21 Do you know this because you were already born
And the number of your years is great?
22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of battle and war?
24 From what direction is light scattered,
And from where does the east wind blow on the earth?
25 Who has cut a channel for the flood
And he made a path for the thunderous storm cloud,
26 To make it rain where no man lives,
On the wilderness where there are no humans,
27 To satisfy devastated wastelands
And cause the grass to sprout?
28 Does the rain have a father,
Or who fathered the dewdrops?
29 From whose womb did the ice emerge,
And who gave birth to the frost of heaven
30 When the waters are covered as if with stone,
And the surface of the deep waters is frozen solid?
31 Can you tie the ropes of the Kiʹmah constellation
Or untie the cords of the Keʹsil constellation?
32 Can you lead out a constellation in its season
Or guide the Ash constellation along with its sons?
33 Do you know the laws governing the heavens,
Or can you impose their authority on the earth?
34 Can you raise your voice to the clouds
To cause a flood of water to cover you?
35 Can you send out lightning bolts?
Will they come and say to you, 'Here we are!'
36 Who put wisdom within the clouds
Or gave understanding to the sky phenomenon?
37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds,
Or who can tip over the water jars of heaven
38 When the dust pours into a mass
And the clods of earth stick together?
39 Can you hunt prey for a lion
Or satisfy the appetites of young lions
40 When they crouch in their lairs
Or lie in ambush in their dens?
41 Who prepares food for the raven
When his young cry to God for help
And wander about because there is nothing to eat?
It is said that it is very rare that you can find two snowflakes exactly alike, so what natural process would create such a variety of symmetries that do not even repeat? A natural process is supposed to repeat the same results under the same conditions...however, that doesn't happen with snowflake designs specifically.
Sometimes you just need to sit back and be a little humble, stop the attacks of arrogance, and observe...
Notice how he doesn't even know you and is already assuming that you are not capable of reasoning on the subject...
This ridiculous arrogance and constant gratuitous disqualification of forum members is what abounds on these sites. Unfortunately, no one puts a stop to the mistreatment by atheists and evolutionists to the rest of forum members who do not agree with them.
To make matters worse, they join together to accuse others of violating rules and so on, with such blatant cynicism that I can't even think about it that much, because I don't want to respond to such bad behavior as they deserve to be responded to, because of my Christian principles.
I would understand that way of treating others in a child who grew up on the street or in an orphanage... I don't understand it in someone who presumes to be scientific and well educated. In which country do well-educated people treat others like this? I have never seen anything like that in real life, only in chat rooms and internet forums, where some unprincipled individuals try to spread hatred and misconduct in societies. This goes beyond beliefs or disbeliefs; this is about human or non-human behaviors.
McBell
Unbound
wow.
The transference and projection in that post are both completely off the charts.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Point of this post in context of the discussion?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Translation: i will never explain it
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
False.
That is exactly what arguments like "irreducible complexity" are: arguments from ignorance.
A thing is "irreducibly complex" (and therefor assumed to be designed) when it isn't known how it could evolve.
And when later on an explanation of how it evolved is found then suddenly it isn't designed anymore, eventhough it still has all the supposed properties of "irreducible complexity".
So IC as an argument "for" design is literally based in an argument of ignorance.
CFR: "we don't know how it could evolve, therefor it didn't".
Even if not a single one of the supposed "irreducible complex" structures the loons identified had a proper explanation, then still all they would have are a bunch of arguments for ignorance. Because all it boils down to is no more or less then "you don't know how it happened, therefor my bare claim is correct"
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Not knowing how something came about (no matter what it is), doesn't mean it can't come about.
If ATP-synthase could "come about naturally", evolutionists would have no problem explaining the origin of life from inorganic matter.
Much of what you read around these parts is pure nonsense.
PS: And YES, I am a Jehovah's Witness, a devout believer and practitioner of true Christianity... and I do not believe in the myth that evolutionists invented that believers are not rational and scientifically thinking people, like everything they repeat to each other to please themselves.
Textbook argument from ignorance.
If all you have as "evidence" for your claim consists of "well, you don't know how else it happened", then you have nothing at all.
Try coming up with some proper positive evidence FOR your idea instead of merely pointing to ignorance in a classic fallacious "god of the gaps" argument.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Why? Are you incapable of focusing for longer then 5 sentences?
Might explain how you are still repeating the same mistakes after 3 years worth of corrections.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Here's a question which I asked you LOADS of times, and you never answered:It shows me that not all understand the science or the categories. Now if some think humans are monkeys and insist on that category, that's up to them. But yes, these types of conversations do help.
Are humans mammals?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
And it is immensely obvious that this thread is using the word in the sense of "intended" design.
So when you then butt in here and, even after having been pointed out your wrong use of the word in context of the thread, continue to double down on it... then you are just being deliberately annoying, obtuse and derailing.
Almost as if you are out to boycott the discussion on purpose. Almost
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I'm sorry, but if you expect scientists to replicate processes that take millions of years, you are only gonna come home from a cold shower.
Explanations is the best you'll get. And it's as a general rule also the best science can offer.
Since "irreducible complexity" is about "can NOT evolve", it is sufficient.
1. The explanation isn't weak by any means. It is based in evidence and offers plausible pathways.
2. ID offers NO explanations. Pointing out supposed ignorance is not an explanation. It's just arguing from ignorance.
You did say "except". And by doing so, you refuted the statement that preceded it.
None of the above.
Brian2
Veteran Member
There are no explanations of how it evolved, there are only educated guesses of a potential pathway which is just presumed to be an explanation of how it did evolve.
Proposing a pathway does not show this pathway to be correct.
Even if this proposed pathway is correct, that does not show that it isn't designed.
Sounds like proposing a hypothesis and other scientists trying to falsify it. Isn't that how it goes, and if it is not falsified then it is correct.
In another hypothesis a scientists is actually saying "Duh, I don't know how this thing could have happened any other way than the way I am proposing." Then other scientists try to falsify it. That is not called an aguement from ignorance even though it is.
Your bias towards scientists who are believers is showing.