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How do you detect "design"?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe I'm missing something, but are your posts usually this long answering several people in the same post?
My responses are commonly to several posters in a single reply. When I arrive at a thread, I read it through to the end quoting whatever looks like it deserves a comment or answer, then sequence and download the lot of them to a reply box, write out my comments there, and post it en masse.

I could break it down into separate posts before hitting reply, but that adds a few steps and can lead to extra mistakes besides the usual spelling and grammatical errors, such as dropouts or posting the same reply twice.

You've indicated that your threshold for reading something is that it only be a few words long, and I may have already exceeded that here. If it helps, when I include you in a batch reply, if you don't want to look at more words than necessary, just use the find function to locate the part relevant to you. Or maybe I can remember to put your section at the top.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
My responses are commonly to several posters in a single reply. When I arrive at a thread, I read it through to the end quoting whatever looks like it deserves a comment or answer, then sequence and download the lot of them to a reply box, write out my comments there, and post it en masse.

I could break it down into separate posts before hitting reply, but that adds a few steps and can lead to extra mistakes besides the usual spelling and grammatical errors, such as dropouts or posting the same reply twice.

You've indicated that your threshold for reading something is that it only be a few words long, and I may have already exceeded that here. If it helps, when I include you in a batch reply, if you don't want to look at more words than necessary, just use the find function to locate the part relevant to you. Or maybe I can remember to put your section at the top.
Oh, I realize it may be hard for you to reply to one poster at a time in separate posts. OK...(have a nice day) If you think you "may have" exceeded a few words in the post we are talking about--I bring to your attention that a few words doesn't necessarily mean a lot of words...Yes, I have said I usually don't read long posts.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm no religious nut, but this is just plain false. Please provide a blow-by-blow account of how ATP-synthase came to exist. Thanks.
There is an underlying reason for my impatience with Intelligent Design arguments. It is the history of the Discovery Institute does not do any comprehensive research to justify their claims of Irreducible Complexity. First they invoke randomness that does not exist, and then use manmade examples to demonstrate the problem of complexity for the necessary complexity. Over time in recent history they have searched science for complexity they believe is irreducibly Complex with no research on their part for an attempt to verify their claim. They made claims concerning bacterial flagellum of E. coli, the blood clotting cascade, cilia, and the adaptive immune system. Science has simply responded using current knowledge of science, no research necessary that all these so called "specified complexity could be easily claimed as a product of natural evolution.hen the search for other "maybe complex," such as the eye. Science demonstrated that eye evolved in increments from the very simply "light sensitive cell" to the various complex eyes, based on the same genetics of the single light sensitive cell.

The Discovery Institute still does not do any actual research, but continues to play games looking for possible specified complexity that science cannot demonstrate come about naturally. ATP synthesis is one of their latest contrived claims.

I do not like this bogus game to justify a religious subjective belief with the misuse and misrepresentation of science.
 
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Eli G

Well-Known Member
Usually when people use too many words to answer a question is because no even them can understand it. Mostly they just copy/paste some supposed explanation somebody else gave.

A person who really believe something out of rational thinking, can explain it rationally to others.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm no religious nut, but this is just plain false. Please provide a blow-by-blow account of how ATP-synthase came to exist. Thanks.
There is an underlying reason for my impatience with Intelligent Design arguments. It is the history of the Discovery Institute does not do any comprehensive research to justify their claims of Irreducible Complexity. First they invoke randomness that does not exist, misuse of probability, and then use manmade examples to demonstrate the problem of complexity for the necessary complexity. Over time in recent history they have searched science for complexity they believe is irreducibly Complex with no research on their part for an attempt to verify their claim. They made claims concerning bacterial flagellum of E. coli, the blood clotting cascade, cilia, and the adaptive immune system. Science has simply responded using current knowledge of science, no research necessary that all these so called "specified complexity could be easily claimed as a product of natural evolution.hen the search for other "maybe complex," such as the eye. Science demonstrated that eye evolved in cremets from the very simply "light sensitive cell to the various complex eyes, based on the same genetics of the single light sensitive cell.

The Discovery Institute still does not do any actual independent research, but continues to play games looking for possible specified complexity that science cannot demonstrate that come about naturally. ATP synthesis is one of their latest contrived claims.

I do not like this bogus game to justify a religious subjective belief with the misuse and misrepresentation of science.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
In just a few words: ATP-synthase is just a process that occurs inside the cell, to transform some elements in others it needs to live, because they contribute the energy for the cell continue existing. It is like its breathing.

Evidently, no one can explain how that occurred for the first time. Otherwise they could imitate the process and give life to inorganic matter.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In just a few words: ATP-synthase is just a process that occurs inside the cell, to transform some elements in others it needs to live, because they contribute the energy for the cell continue existing. It is like its breathing.

Evidently, no one can explain how that occurred for the first time. Otherwise they could imitate the process and give life to inorganic matter.
Explanations given with references, and conveniently choose to ignore them and respond. There are more, but I doubt you can even understand them.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
It is much easier to be humble and say "no one knows that until now"
...than to arrogantly begin to blame others of being impertinent just for asking.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It is much easier to be humble and say "no one knows that until now"
...than to arrogantly begin to blame others of being impertinent just for asking.
Nobody is saying you're "impertinent just for asking."

You're impertinent because the answers have been provided to you by several posters, and you've just ignored them and continued to claim that "nobody knows."

It's just you who doesn't know. And by your own choice, since answers have been provided to you already.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
The first thing a university graduate learns is to make an abstract summary that he has to include at the beginning of his degree thesis.

If you are not able to read an article yourself and make a brief and concise summary to give the public an idea of what a certain article says, then have you really graduated from a university degree, or are you just pretending?

Everything started with this claim:

all the examples of irreducible complexity proposed by the Discovery Institute have been demonstrated by science to be as a result of natural processes
It was demonstrated that is false.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is much easier to be humble and say "no one knows that until now"
...than to arrogantly begin to blame others of being impertinent just for asking.
If it was just for asking, you would be seeking the knowledge. On the other hand your line of questions are not a sincere search for knowledge, but to justify, as previously stated a Christian JW agenda,
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
For something to be considered scientific proof, it must be objective, verifiable and reproducible knowledge. I would never pay to listen to unproven falsehoods.

I have already mentioned this real example several times: a supposed evolution scholar, a woman, telling an interested audience in a conference hall that apes developed brain size when they learned to use fire for cooking; According to her, in a lecture that is not that old and can still be seen on the Internet, spending less time hunting gave the apes more time to think, so his brain grew in size .

Should a non-scholar have believed such an expert lady just because of her credentials and university degrees? I, of course, can't help but laugh at a person who speculates so much about a topic as serious as the origin of rational thought in humans.

Shortly after, it was discovered, or finally accepted, that brain and skull size does not determine human intelligence, something that any one can see in the real world. I didn't wait for the "experts" to tell me something I already knew... And where did they leave the expert with her lecture? :shrug:
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The first thing a university graduate learns is to make an abstract summary that he has to include at the beginning of his degree thesis.
True So what?!?!?!
If you are not able to read an article yourself and make a brief and concise summary to give the public an idea of what a certain article says, then have you really graduated from a university degree, or are you just pretending?
Are you unable to open the reference read the article itself? Actually more articles can be provided, but it is unlikely you can understand them.
It was demonstrated that is false.
Please demonstrate.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
For something to be considered scientific proof, it must be objective, verifiable and reproducible knowledge. I would never pay to listen to unproven falsehoods.

I have already mentioned this real example several times: a supposed evolution scholar, a woman, telling an interested audience in a conference hall that apes developed brain size when they learned to use fire for cooking; According to her, in a lecture that is not that old and can still be seen on the Internet, spending less time hunting gave the apes more time to think, so his brain grew in size .

Should a non-scholar have believed such an expert lady just because of her credentials and university degrees? I, of course, can't help but laugh at a person who speculates so much about a topic as serious as the origin of rational thought in humans.

Shortly after, it was discovered that brain size does not determine human intelligence... And where did they leave the expert with her lecture? :shrug:
Terrible anecdotal reference with no academic reference concerning this woman. Specific reference please.

The only true thing above is the fact that brain size in and of itself is not a measure of intelligence. Of course over time knowledge changes, It was thought that in the past specifically brain size among primates was a measure of intelligence, which is not true today.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Relating the size of the skull and brain to the progress of the apes towards their supposed "humanity" was a normal doctrine among evolutionists. On that doctrine they based most of their deductions about how "advanced" certain apes were compared to others.

Blaming that woman for what she was convinced to say is a shameless act. :facepalm:
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am not interested in your demagogic rhetoric or personal attacks.

In case you haven't realized yet: you are a member of the set of elements that I call "the hole where I throw those who don't care what they say." :cool:
Failure to respond, and your posts are loaded with demagogic rhetoric and insults.

I believe my post was specific, no academic reference for this woman.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Relating the size of the skull and brain to the progress of the apes towards their supposed "humanity" was a normal doctrine among evolutionists. On that doctrine they based most of their deductions about how "advanced" certain apes were compared to others.
In the past yes, but not the present.
Blaming that woman for what she was convinced to say is a shameless act. :facepalm:

I do not blame the woman. I blame you for an anecdotal vague reference without a cited source.None the less as I stated earlier brain size does not in and of itself indicate increased intelligence, but nonetheless the following research determined that within the Homo Sapien species brain size and structure changed with the eating of meat. The research had nothing to do with earlier primates relative brain size.


Genetic Evidence of Human Adaptation to a Cooked Diet​

Rachel N. Carmody,1,† Michael Dannemann,2,† Adrian W. Briggs,1,3 Birgit Nickel,2 Emily E. Groopman,1,4 Richard W. Wrangham,1,‡ and Janet Kelso2,*‡
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information PMC Disclaimer

Associated Data​

Supplementary Materials
Go to:

Abstract​

Humans have been argued to be biologically adapted to a cooked diet, but this hypothesis has not been tested at the molecular level. Here, we combine controlled feeding experiments in mice with comparative primate genomics to show that consumption of a cooked diet influences gene expression and that affected genes bear signals of positive selection in the human lineage. Liver gene expression profiles in mice fed standardized diets of meat or tuber were affected by food type and cooking, but not by caloric intake or consumer energy balance. Genes affected by cooking were highly correlated with genes known to be differentially expressed in liver between humans and other primates, and more genes in this overlap set show signals of positive selection in humans than would be expected by chance. Sequence changes in the genes under selection appear before the split between modern humans and two archaic human groups, Neandertals and Denisovans, supporting the idea that human adaptation to a cooked diet had begun by at least 275,000 years ago.

Ancestral humans underwent marked increases in body size and brain volume coupled with reductions in tooth and gut size beginning approximately 2 Ma (Aiello and Wheeler 1995). These biological features indicate the consumption of an easier-to-digest diet with increased caloric density, and have been argued to reflect a heavier reliance on animal foods (Aiello and Wheeler 1995; Stanford and Bunn 2001; Milton 2003;

Introduction​

Ancestral humans underwent marked increases in body size and brain volume coupled with reductions in tooth and gut size beginning approximately 2 Ma (Aiello and Wheeler 1995). These biological features indicate the consumption of an easier-to-digest diet with increased caloric density, and have been argued to reflect a heavier reliance on animal foods (Aiello and Wheeler 1995; Stanford and Bunn 2001; Milton 2003; Speth 2010) and improved methods of food processing, including cooking (Wrangham et al. 1999; Wrangham and Carmody 2010). Cooking enhances nutrient digestibility and reduces diet-induced thermogenesis, thereby substantially increasing the energy gained from important hominin foods like meat and tubers (Carmody and Wrangham 2009; Carmody et al. 2011). Evidence that present-day humans cannot extract sufficient energy from uncooked wild diets, whether or not they include meat (Koebnick et al. 1999), has led to the suggestion that hunter-gatherers are biologically committed to these benefits of cooking (Wrangham and Conklin-Brittain 2003), including the provision of sufficient energy to fuel an exceptionally large brain (Fonseca-Azevedo and Herculano-Houzel 2012). The hypothesis that cooked food is obligatory for modern humans predicts genetic signals of human adaptation to a cooked diet. Indirect evidence of such adaptation—including pseudogenization of the masticatory myosin gene (MYH16) and of two bitter taste receptor genes (TAS2R62 and TAS2R64) after the split from the common ancestor with chimpanzee, but prior to the split from the common ancestor with Neandertals and Denisovans (Perry et al. 2015)—encourages direct testing of this hypothesis.

Dietary modifications have previously been shown to cause genetic adaptation. Several populations with a legacy of dairying have acquired the ability to digest lactose into adulthood through persistence of the lactase enzyme (Bersaglieri et al. 2004; Gerbault et al. 2011), a trait that has evolved multiple times in the last approximately 7,000 years under strong positive selection (Tishkoff et al. 2007; Ranciaro et al. 2014). Additionally, populations with a history of consuming starch-rich foods have been argued to exhibit higher copy numbers of the gene encoding salivary amylase, the enzyme responsible for starch digestion in the mouth (Perry et al. 2007). The adoption of cooking is thought to be partly responsible for this adaptive covariation, as amylase is inefficient at digesting starch unless it has been first gelatinized by heat (Hardy et al. 2015). That diet-induced genetic adaptations exist among modern populations suggests that dietary modifications with longer evolutionary histories and broad systemic effects might produce more widespread genetic change.

Although the anatomical evidence from fossil Homo suggests that cooking began in the Lower Paleolithic, archaeological evidence for the control of fire is weak until the Middle Paleolithic (Gowlett and Wrangham 2013). Fire was certainly controlled by 250,000 years ago (James 1989), but is evidenced only occasionally back to 400,000 years; the oldest widely accepted date of anthropogenic fire is from Wonderwerk Cave, South Africa at 1 Ma (Berna et al. 2012). Although control of fire does not necessarily imply cooking, strong preferences for cooked items among great apes, combined with a readiness to wait for raw food to be cooked, suggest that cooking would likely have followed shortly thereafter (Wobber et al. 2008; Warneken and Rosati 2015). Notably, later putative dates for the origin of cooking overlap with the proposed split between modern humans and the last common ancestor of Neandertals and Denisovans, dated to between 275,000 and 765,000 years ago (Prufer et al. 2014), making it unclear whether cooking was present in the last common ancestor of our clade. Gelatinized starch granules embedded in the dental calculus of Neandertals suggest they were consuming cooked plant items by 50,000 years ago (Henry et al. 2011). However, sporadic evidence of fire use in cold-weather sites has led some to suggest that early Neandertals used fire opportunistically but did not control it (Roebroeks and Villa 2011; Sandgathe et al. 2011). Testing whether adaptation to a cooked diet occurred before or after the split between the modern human and Neandertal–Denisovan lineages could therefore help inform the timing of the control of fire.



worthy of note it has been known for a long time that cooking food developed within Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals, and possibly Denisovians and not present in closely related earlier primates with similar brain sizes.

Still no reliable reference to what? this woman said.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Usually when people use too many words to answer a question is because no even them can understand it.
If you're referring to me, is this you telling me that you can't understand what I've written? Other posters frequently give those posts "like" and "winner" ratings. Do you think that they do that without understanding what they read?

You use too few words, which makes much of your writing vague. You left two words out of that sentence, but fortunately, there's enough context provided to guess what they might have been: "question is because no even them can understand it" was probably meant to read "question it is because no one [or maybe not] even themselves can understand it."
A person who really believe something out of rational thinking, can explain it rationally to others.
Only if that other person is prepared to understand, meaning able to follow a sound, technical argument. That requires a data base of knowledge and a command of reason.
In just a few words: ATP-synthase is just a process that occurs inside the cell, to transform some elements in others it needs to live, because they contribute the energy for the cell continue existing. It is like its breathing.
Here's a fine example of a comment that could use some fleshing out. As written, I would expect it to say nothing of value to those not already familiar with cellular respiration. Understanding the significance of the function of this enzyme and its byproduct (ATP) requires a fair amount of preparation (education).

Understanding its significance in a discussion of irreducible complexity requires an understanding of its structure as well as a chicken-or-egg argument about energy generating processes that themselves consume energy.

Your comment also contains errors. It seems to me that you are unaware that ATP-synthase is an enzyme and not a process, that the energy for cellular metabolism comes from calories (not ATP), that molecules (not elements) are being transformed, and that cellular respiration, a chemical process, is not like breathing, which is also called respiration, but is a mechanical process that moves gases into and out of the lungs.

So yeah, go ahead and be casual, vague, and incorrect, but don't pat yourself on the back for being more concise than a useful explanation.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
In my own opinion my comment was sufficiently clear, precise and brief on the issue.
I wasn't trying to lecture anyone or brag... For that I would do what you do, copy/paste articles from the web and pretend that you understand them.
 
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