• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How do you detect "design"?

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I have no idea why you referred to my post as somehow "anthropomorphic" or having to do with "fine tuning". I didn't use either expression, and I wasn't trying to respond to anything that you had posted recently. I was just talking about planned vs. unplanned design. Inanimate forces can actually create order out of chaotic deterministic interactions. That fact is noncontroversial and easily demonstrated. Evolutionary design in biological organisms is just a special case of emergence in chaotic deterministic systems.
It remains a problem of an anthropomorphic view of "design" in nature as you describe it above as some "intent" in nature. Inanimate forces do not actually create order out of chaotic deterministic interactions, Nature is not chaotic or random by its nature. Natural Laws and processes simply exist and natural deterministic order is a natural property of our universe as it is without any need of "intent" in design. I like Einstein's view simply that the "dice are loaded."

Oh, come on! I did not use the word "intent" or anything like it, yet you put it in quotes, boldface it, and attribute it to me. You literally put words into my mouth. If you want to disagree with me about whether inanimate forces can create order out of chaos, that is fair. We can discuss chaos theory, but I suspect you've heard the term before and don't need to have it explained to you. It is considered one of the greatest advances of twentieth century mathematics, but go ahead and dispute it, if that is what you want to do. However, it still puzzles me that you seem to claim I am supporting some kind of "anthropomorphic view" of nature. I was supporting the opposite.

One word of caution is science does not propose that nature is rigidly mechanically determanististic. The determinism in nature is that all cause and effect events in natural occur within the limits of outcomes constrained by Natural Laws and processes. The range of possible outcome is fractal based on the number of variables involved. For example: No two clouds are alike, but all clouds look like clouds. No two Maple lives are alike, but all Maple leaves look like Maple leaves.

Who said that science proposed a "rigidly mechanically determanististic" [sic]? Not me. Fractals are a fascinating part of chaos theory, which is mathematically sound. We can program computers to generate fractal designs, and I happen to be good at that type of programming. I am an experienced Lisp programmer, so I thoroughly understand how recursion works. Why would you think that I think two clouds, maple leaves, snowflakes, etc., should be alike? You keep making stuff up and attributing it to me. Consider the possibility that you have misunderstood what I wrote and read it again.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I believe you are arguing for design in nature.
"Beleive" what you like.

1714845419682.png
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Oh, come on! I did not use the word "intent" or anything like it, yet you put it in quotes, boldface it, and attribute it to me. You literally put words into my mouth. If you want to disagree with me about whether inanimate forces can create order out of chaos, that is fair. We can discuss chaos theory, but I suspect you've heard the term before and don't need to have it explained to you. It is considered one of the greatest advances of twentieth century mathematics, but go ahead and dispute it, if that is what you want to do. However, it still puzzles me that you seem to claim I am supporting some kind of "anthropomorphic view" of nature. I was supporting the opposite.

You described "intent" in your post to over come the false chaotic nature of our existence. Design by definition in the English language means intent with a plan or purpose. Nature doe snot have an intent or purpose that would necessitate design to overcome and chaos in nature that does not exist.

You previously made this statement, "Inanimate forces can actually create order out of chaotic deterministic interactions." which directly implies intent of being designed,
Who said that science proposed a "rigidly mechanically determanististic" [sic]? Not me.
OK, but the prevents any attempt to misrepresent natural determinism. Any verison of design implies intent by definition. There is absolutely no concept of unplanned design in nature by definition.

Fractals are a fascinating part of chaos theory, which is mathematically sound. We can program computers to generate fractal designs, and I happen to be good at that type of programming. I am an experienced Lisp programmer, so I thoroughly understand how recursion works. Why would you think that I think two clouds, maple leaves, snowflakes, etc., should be alike? You keep making stuff up and attributing it to me. Consider the possibility that you have misunderstood what I wrote and read it again.

No, you made a statement about the chaotic nature of our physical existence and that design somehow compensates for this chaotic nature that does not exist.

I am referencing the fractal nature of our physical existence and not in your computers,
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
You described "intent" in your post to over come the false chaotic nature of our existence. Design by definition in the English language means intent with a plan or purpose. Nature doe snot have an intent or purpose that would necessitate design to overcome and chaos in nature that does not exist.

You have completely misunderstood and misrepresented what I wrote, and you seem to have trouble recognizing the concept of ambiguous usage. That's why dictionary entries very often have more than one sense definition for a word. The word "design" does not always refer to intelligent design, and I spent some time explaining this. Either you didn't read it, or you misunderstood what I wrote. You certainly did not acknowledge it in your comments on what I wrote. At this point, the only intent I see here is your intent to stonewall and cover up your misrepresentation of what I have written.

You previously made this statement, "Inanimate forces can actually create order out of chaotic deterministic interactions." which directly implies intent of being designed,

Not in the slightest. Physical forces are usually construed as inanimate, and they can create all sorts of patterns in nature that we refer to as "designs". I was very careful to point out that not all usage of the word "design" implies intelligent planning. One can talk about unplanned "designs" in nature. Your concept of the usage of that word is overly narrow. IOW, you are engaging in what is often called a fallacy of definition. To illustrate my point, I refer you to biologist Kenneth Miller of Brown University, who has correctly emphasized the need for scientists to embrace the use of the word "design" in talking about evolution. He points out that scientists routinely use the word "design" when speaking about the design of complex molecules. The usage is ubiquitous. See:

There Is 'Design' In Nature, Biologist Argues


OK, but the prevents any attempt to misrepresent natural determinism. Any verison of design implies intent by definition. There is absolutely no concept of unplanned design in nature by definition.

I think that you are dead wrong when you consider the fact that scientists use the word "design" all the time to refer to a complex patterns in nature. You are ignoring a very common pattern of usage. When arguing with creationists, they use the word "design" as shorthand for "intelligent design", but that very expression implies that it is possible to have a type of design that isn't "intelligent". That's why they use two words instead of one to emphasize their opposition to the way scientists use the word as if there were no intelligence behind it. It is also why Richard Dawkins used the metaphor "blind watchmaker" to explain Darwinian evolution--to express his view that the designs we see in nature are not grounded in planned or engineered design.

No, you made a statement about the chaotic nature of our physical existence and that design somehow compensates for this chaotic nature that does not exist.

I am referencing the fractal nature of our physical existence and not in your computers,

The concept of "fractal" is the same, whether or not you use it to describe physical phenomena. You aren't making any sense.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
shunydragon said:
Any verison of design implies intent by definition.
In your culture.

Your culture has an idea of “design”, just like your culture has an idea of the “purpose” of mathematics.

I think that there are contexts in which shunya's usage makes sense--for example, debates with creationists, who use "design" as a short form of "intelligent design". And normally, English speakers use the word in connection with intelligent designs. However, scientists and others, particularly biologists, use it in the the sense of a design created by evolutionary change in organisms or very complex structures such as molecules. Patterns that we see in nature can have structures that arose through serendipitous physical interactions. So I see it as more about shunya's tunnel vision than his culture.
 
Last edited:

Pogo

Well-Known Member
In your culture.

Your culture has an idea of “design”, just like your culture has an idea of the “purpose” of mathematics.
1714857062775.jpeg


Most everybody will grant this is a design Physicist, artist, biologist, preacher,
And theists will ultimately ascribe it to their deity and others will understand that it is one of the wonders of nature that conveniently ends up being explained by simple math where elegant math is connected with things we find pretty.
This has all been disrupted by a few theists who mangled their own fields of expertise with their emotional desires to confuse the general populace. What we are left with is a word that no longer is useful to anyone beyond an example of bad theology, science, logic, emotion.
 
I think that there are contexts in which shunya's usage makes sense--for example, debates with creationists, who use "design" as a short form of "intelligent design". And normally, English speakers use the word in connection with intelligent designs. However, scientists and others, particularly biologists, use it in the the sense of a design created by evolutionary change in organisms or very complex structures such as molecules. Patterns that we see in nature can have structures that arose through serendipitous physical interactions. So I see it as more about shunya's tunnel vision than his culture.

Language is a funny thing.

If I say that “God is a mathematician”, for example, it does not follow that I believe that God exists.

After all, I’m a mathematician, and I’m not convinced that I exist.

What makes God so special?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
A topic that frequently comes up in these creation debates, be it in context of evolution or the origins of the universe or alike, is our supposed ability to be able to differentiate "design" from natural occurances.

Yet whenever creationist or "design proponents" bring this up, it seems to me that they are either very vague about it or their methodology of "detecting design" seems to be no more then fallacious argumentst from ignorance ("I don't know how it can be natural, so therefor it isn't"), arguments from incredulity ("I don't believe it's natural, therefor it isn't") or various species or combinations thereof.

I would say that in a nutshell, we detect design by demonstrating signs of manufacturing or use of artificial materials.
This implies that we have to understand manufacturing processes and what signs / traces they tend to leave.
It also implies that we have to understand the difference between naturally occuring materials and artificial materials.

This in turn means that we could not detect or conclude design when it concerns things of unknown manufactoring and natural processes or of unknown materials.

This also means that if a designer sets out to mimic natural processes and materials while doing a perfect job, we would not be able to tell the artificial object from the natural object.

For example, if someone would take a rough stone and smooth it out by perfectly mimicing water erosion as what would happen in say a river, we would not be able to tell that this was done by a person instead of by a river.


So, having said that, when somebody *Mod edit* then states that one can "detect design" in the universe based on for example of the values of the physical constants, I wonder what the methodology is that is being used.

So in this thread, I invite people who disagree with my methodology of detecting design to explain their methodology of doing so and demonstrate how it achieves better results.
Natural processes are a type of design, if natural processes are logical, and not randomly based. For example, the DNA is wonderful design for storing all the complex data needed for life, using only two base pairs and hydrogen bonding data processing.

When humans design something, it is often first done in the head; idea, then on paper, before the design is expressed in reality. These steps are possible, because the final design has a sense of casual order in terms of assembly and function.

You cannot design with a purely random or dice and cards approach. The intellect is not needed, if you can just flip coins or roll dice. Random assumptions are more of a tool, that the builders of the design may use. But is not useful for designing. In a factory, QC will use statistical models to optimize a process. But the process would never be designed by statistics; rational means more predictable and reliable. The statistical tool is good for fine tuning, but not for designing. The black box assumption of the tool prevents designing in the mind; in the dark.

The metric system is a very intelligent design. It is based on water. If we have 1cc or 1ml of water, it will weigh, 1 gram. If I then push that 1ml or 1 gram of water, into a cube, each side of the cube will be exactly 1 cm. This simple water based design allows us to derive the metric system from scratch, with hardly anything.

The natural design for star formation is very simple, logical and perfectly self reliant. Gravity, which is a force built into matter, very early in the universe, acts upon other matter and then matter will mutually attract. As matter accumulates, via the mutual attraction, the gravity gets stronger. This will pull even more matter, from even farther away. As this attraction cascade is happening, gravity also creates pressure and does work that generates heat.

We have this self feeding process, designed to amplify pressure and heat, all the way to the extremes conditions, needed to start and contain nuclear fusion. This is an excellent natural design that feeds and amplifies itself, with little need for process control, maintenance and GC people to keep it going. That is an intelligent design, which I define as a design that is simple, effective, efficient with no maintenance requirements.

The way science has designed the dynamics for the inside of the our sun; stellar theory, is not as efficient. The manmade theory relies on dice and cards. The hammer tool is not usually used in the design stage. The hammer is better for building and maintenance. The problem is we cannot see inside the sun to know anything for sure, so we are sort of stuck with a black box design.

If I wanted to make the inner workings of the sun, as simple and as beautiful of a design, as the self feeding gravity cascade design, I would design the fusion core to take advantage of the density inversion of atoms, at high temperature. Atoms are mostly space, that is occupied by electron clouds. Inside the sun, the extreme heat will ionize atoms to various degrees, stripping off electrons.

What this does is allow smaller atoms, like hydrogen, to fully ionize; shed their electron, and thereby reach nuclear density. It becomes only a nucleus. Larger atoms, like iron for example, will still retain some inner most electrons, making this partially ionized atom less dense than hydrogen or helium; still occupies has a lot of space due to a few inner electrons (density = mass/volume).

If we dropped iron into water the iron would sink. But in we hammer the iron, into the hull of a little boat, it can float on water. The fully ionized verses partial ionization of atoms, at extreme temperature, will cause the larger partially ionized atoms to floats on the smaller fully ionized atoms. This natural inversion forms a very functional heavy atom shell that can passively control the fusion process; self maintaining and self healing.

For example, if the fusion was getting too hot; runaway fusion, the shell will heat up and this will further ionizes the heavy atoms. This makes the shell heavier so it sits lower in the core. This seals and slows down the fuel diffusion that is pushed into the fusion, by gravity/density. The loss of fuel then cools the fusion core. The runaway is resolved.

This cooling may cause sun spots to appear on the surface. If it cools too much, electrons are back added to the shell, and the shell float up higher and opens up for more fuel diffusion. This can cause an effect, that I like to call fusion hammer, where the sudden fuel and fusion surge, bangs the shell, like a gong, for higher atomic synthesis. It is the mother of all particles colliders. The residuals can appear on the surface as a solar flare. By tweaking the ionization density of the shell, there is passive process control that can handle any problem while being fuel efficient.

Over time the shell will thicken due the to buildup of higher atoms. If the shell gets too thick, it can cause the core to starve of fuel and lose efficiency. This usually means it is time to clean the pipes. The sustain cooling of the core can float the shell and allow a large fuel surge. This can create a mega fusion hammer, can blow out large quantities of shell material, entraining solar surface material.

My guess is our sun came from its own rebirth; first generation star, that cleaned its pipes. The solar system formed from the blow out and a new sun; version 2.0, reformed from the hydrogen, reforming a new shell for fusion control.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You have completely misunderstood and misrepresented what I wrote, and you seem to have trouble recognizing the concept of ambiguous usage. That's why dictionary entries very often have more than one sense definition for a word. The word "design" does not always refer to intelligent design, and I spent some time explaining this. Either you didn't read it, or you misunderstood what I wrote. You certainly did not acknowledge it in your comments on what I wrote. At this point, the only intent I see here is your intent to stonewall and cover up your misrepresentation of what I have written.



Not in the slightest. Physical forces are usually construed as inanimate, and they can create all sorts of patterns in nature that we refer to as "designs". I was very careful to point out that not all usage of the word "design" implies intelligent planning. One can talk about unplanned "designs" in nature. Your concept of the usage of that word is overly narrow. IOW, you are engaging in what is often called a fallacy of definition. To illustrate my point, I refer you to biologist Kenneth Miller of Brown University, who has correctly emphasized the need for scientists to embrace the use of the word "design" in talking about evolution. He points out that scientists routinely use the word "design" when speaking about the design of complex molecules. The usage is ubiquitous. See:

There Is 'Design' In Nature, Biologist Argues




I think that you are dead wrong when you consider the fact that scientists use the word "design" all the time to refer to a complex patterns in nature. You are ignoring a very common pattern of usage. When arguing with creationists, they use the word "design" as shorthand for "intelligent design", but that very expression implies that it is possible to have a type of design that isn't "intelligent". That's why they use two words instead of one to emphasize their opposition to the way scientists use the word as if there were no intelligence behind it. It is also why Richard Dawkins used the metaphor "blind watchmaker" to explain Darwinian evolution--to express his view that the designs we see in nature are not grounded in planned or engineered design.



The concept of "fractal" is the same, whether or not you use it to describe physical phenomena. You aren't making any sense.
I care less what a Biologist says, your argument remains a philosophical argument for "design" based on a view of nature as "intent" of inanimate forces to cause things in a chaotic nature. This equates an anthropomorphic intent of "inanimate forces." Nature is not chaotic or random.

There is absolutely no objective evidence for an argument for the oxymoron view of design in nature. There is absolutely no such thing as unplanned design by definition,

As usual we are opposite sides of a stone wall when you argue from a philosophical perspective without objective evidence grounded in science. We will have to agree to disagree and end the discussion
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
You cannot design with a purely random or dice and cards approach. The intellect is not needed, if you can just flip coins or roll dice.
You can use dice to design the Rado graph with 100% probability.%
I'm 99% certain that this response will mean nothing to wellwisher. It didn't mean anything to me, but maybe he was familiar with it before you brought it up. :)
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I care less what a Biologist says, your argument remains a philosophical argument for "design" based on a view of nature as "intent" of inanimate forces to cause things in a chaotic nature. This equates an anthropomorphic intent of "inanimate forces." Nature is not chaotic or random.

There is absolutely no objective evidence for an argument for the oxymoron view of design in nature. There is absolutely no such thing as unplanned design by definition,

As usual we are opposite sides of a stone wall when you argue from a philosophical perspective without objective evidence grounded in science. We will have to agree to disagree and end the discussion

OK. I wasn't expecting a concession speech, but I'm happy to agree to disagree.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Natural processes are a type of design, if natural processes are logical, and not randomly based. For example, the DNA is wonderful design for storing all the complex data needed for life, using only two base pairs and hydrogen bonding data processing.

When humans design something, it is often first done in the head; idea, then on paper, before the design is expressed in reality. These steps are possible, because the final design has a sense of casual order in terms of assembly and function.

You cannot design with a purely random or dice and cards approach. The intellect is not needed, if you can just flip coins or roll dice. Random assumptions are more of a tool, that the builders of the design may use. But is not useful for designing. In a factory, QC will use statistical models to optimize a process. But the process would never be designed by statistics; rational means more predictable and reliable. The statistical tool is good for fine tuning, but not for designing. The black box assumption of the tool prevents designing in the mind; in the dark.

The metric system is a very intelligent design. It is based on water. If we have 1cc or 1ml of water, it will weigh, 1 gram. If I then push that 1ml or 1 gram of water, into a cube, each side of the cube will be exactly 1 cm. This simple water based design allows us to derive the metric system from scratch, with hardly anything.

The natural design for star formation is very simple, logical and perfectly self reliant. Gravity, which is a force built into matter, very early in the universe, acts upon other matter and then matter will mutually attract. As matter accumulates, via the mutual attraction, the gravity gets stronger. This will pull even more matter, from even farther away. As this attraction cascade is happening, gravity also creates pressure and does work that generates heat.

We have this self feeding process, designed to amplify pressure and heat, all the way to the extremes conditions, needed to start and contain nuclear fusion. This is an excellent natural design that feeds and amplifies itself, with little need for process control, maintenance and GC people to keep it going. That is an intelligent design, which I define as a design that is simple, effective, efficient with no maintenance requirements.

The way science has designed the dynamics for the inside of the our sun; stellar theory, is not as efficient. The manmade theory relies on dice and cards. The hammer tool is not usually used in the design stage. The hammer is better for building and maintenance. The problem is we cannot see inside the sun to know anything for sure, so we are sort of stuck with a black box design.

If I wanted to make the inner workings of the sun, as simple and as beautiful of a design, as the self feeding gravity cascade design, I would design the fusion core to take advantage of the density inversion of atoms, at high temperature. Atoms are mostly space, that is occupied by electron clouds. Inside the sun, the extreme heat will ionize atoms to various degrees, stripping off electrons.

What this does is allow smaller atoms, like hydrogen, to fully ionize; shed their electron, and thereby reach nuclear density. It becomes only a nucleus. Larger atoms, like iron for example, will still retain some inner most electrons, making this partially ionized atom less dense than hydrogen or helium; still occupies has a lot of space due to a few inner electrons (density = mass/volume).

If we dropped iron into water the iron would sink. But in we hammer the iron, into the hull of a little boat, it can float on water. The fully ionized verses partial ionization of atoms, at extreme temperature, will cause the larger partially ionized atoms to floats on the smaller fully ionized atoms. This natural inversion forms a very functional heavy atom shell that can passively control the fusion process; self maintaining and self healing.

For example, if the fusion was getting too hot; runaway fusion, the shell will heat up and this will further ionizes the heavy atoms. This makes the shell heavier so it sits lower in the core. This seals and slows down the fuel diffusion that is pushed into the fusion, by gravity/density. The loss of fuel then cools the fusion core. The runaway is resolved.

This cooling may cause sun spots to appear on the surface. If it cools too much, electrons are back added to the shell, and the shell float up higher and opens up for more fuel diffusion. This can cause an effect, that I like to call fusion hammer, where the sudden fuel and fusion surge, bangs the shell, like a gong, for higher atomic synthesis. It is the mother of all particles colliders. The residuals can appear on the surface as a solar flare. By tweaking the ionization density of the shell, there is passive process control that can handle any problem while being fuel efficient.

Over time the shell will thicken due the to buildup of higher atoms. If the shell gets too thick, it can cause the core to starve of fuel and lose efficiency. This usually means it is time to clean the pipes. The sustain cooling of the core can float the shell and allow a large fuel surge. This can create a mega fusion hammer, can blow out large quantities of shell material, entraining solar surface material.

My guess is our sun came from its own rebirth; first generation star, that cleaned its pipes. The solar system formed from the blow out and a new sun; version 2.0, reformed from the hydrogen, reforming a new shell for fusion control.
I like your post if you remove the word "design" and than it makes sense as the nature of our physical existence is natural based on the Laws of Nature and natural processes simple as it is,
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I like your post if you remove the word "design" and than it makes sense as the nature of our physical existence is natural based on the Laws of Nature and natural processes simple as it is,

Design is just a word. Nature does design. We base quite a few of our designs off of nature.

A beaver designs a dam to hinder or stop the flow of water. We designed and built dams for the same reasons.

One of my favorites...the falcon and stealth bomber

IMG_20240504_233326.jpg



If I said nature/evolution designed the falcon, would that bother you?
 
Last edited:

Astrophile

Active Member
Hard to believe, given that your method is too wide and allows for pretty much all possibliities,

Life has the property of specified complexity……………..SE would be the evidence for manipulation/manufacture

WHY is life SE

because there are many in which the building blocks of life can exist, that are allowed by the laws of nature…………. But only few combinations would produce a self replicating molecule, the laws of nature don’t favor this pattern

why SE indicates design

experience, every time we find something with this property it is always designed.



No who is ready for a long and evasive reply?

Answer directly…………… why isn’t SE a sign of manufacture?
What does SE mean? Does it mean specified complexity? Is so, why isn't it SC?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Considering that scientists say that RNA may have come from a chaotic or primordial soup, no discussion of advance planning, or design is mentioned. (Of course.) "DNA, RNA, and proteins are central to life on Earth. DNA stores the instructions for building living things—from bacteria to bumble bees." Rather astounding. "DNA stores the instructions for building living things -- " https://www.khanacademy.org/science...NA building blocks,be more stable than others.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Considering that scientists say that RNA may have come from a chaotic or primordial soup, no discussion of advance planning, or design is mentioned. (Of course.) "DNA, RNA, and proteins are central to life on Earth. DNA stores the instructions for building living things—from bacteria to bumble bees." Rather astounding. "DNA stores the instructions for building living things -- " https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap-biology/natural-selection/origins-of-life-on-earth/a/rna-world#:~:text=Scientists think RNA building blocks,be more stable than others.

And anybody who uses the word design in regard to the subject is making @shunyadragon's mistake of anthropomorphizing nature. The worst of which are those who argue: That is complex, I don't see how it could have occurred naturally, it must have been god.

The word used to be useful before being hijacked.
 
Top