how do you feel when threatened with Hell?

[Rational Agnostic]

I've said this before but wrath, anger, these are only bad things when misplaced. When we get angry for petty things or our ego for example, is a bad use for anger.

To be angry at oppression is not a bad thing. Everything has a proper place in virtue including vengeance. As God holds all virtues at ultimate level, just as there will be ultimate mercy and forgiveness and reward for believers, there will be ultimate wrath and vengeance for disbelievers.

This is the reality of virtues whether we want to acknowledge them or not. Then there comes the issue how a disbeliever becomes over time impossible to save.

If your religion/religious text were true and could actually provide evidence that it is true, do you think it would need to threaten people for not believing in it? This is a key difference between religion and math/science. A mathematician uses facts and logic to prove statements, a religious person uses threats of eternal torture. What would you do if your math teacher said that the square root of 2 was irrational because he said so and told you to just shut up and believe it because you'd be sent to hell if you didn't? You would laugh in his face. Mathematicians and scientists don't have to threaten people to demonstrate that they are right, instead they use facts and evidence to backup their claims.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If your religion/religious text were true and could actually provide evidence that it is true, do you think it would need to threaten people for not believing in it?

An atheist sees such discourse as "a threat", whereas the believer sees it as "a warning".
It's all in the mind..

 

[John53]

You will certainly suffer unless you are down to be in hell. You will suffer at sight of a demon, especially if you have to be that. It doesn’t matter if you believe what I believe, only that you believe. I would love to be wrong about this.

I don't believe there are demons so I'll be ok by the sounds of it.

 

[MonkeyFire]

I don't believe there are demons so I'll be ok by the sounds of it.

Your the non-believer. I believe in physical angels, and demons, and natural Heaven, and heck. I think atheist use suffering as a cop out… why would there not be a God of Mother Nature? A savior, and pleasure for the rest of time would be Godly, and deeply satisfying. The problem of evil creates faction, but either side of the debate has the rite to choose what they believe.

 

[Bthoth]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

Hell is a state of mind.

 

[mangalavara]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

I don’t think anybody has ever threatened me with hell, so I don’t know for sure how I would feel.

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I can understand that. Individuals who threaten others with hellfire and damnation tend to be those who belong to a highly special group such as the Church or the Ummah.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

An atheist sees such discourse as "a threat", whereas the believer sees it as "a warning".
It's all in the mind..

And why do you suppose religion uses these threats, warnings, or whatever we want to label them, to retain believers, but mathematics and science does not? Here's a hint to help you out in case it's difficult for you to understand: re-read my post that you quoted in its entirety where I explained the differences between religious claims and mathematical and scientific claims. I know it's several sentences long so it might take a lot of focus and concentration for you to understand what I said, but I really do have confidence that you are intelligent enough that if you take the time to read these few sentences and use all the brainpower you've got, you might actually be able to understand my point.

 

[John53]

Your the non-believer. I believe in physical angels, and demons, and natural Heaven, and heck.

Show me the evidence and I'll check it out.

I think atheist use suffering as a cop out…

A cop out of from what?

why would there not be a God of Mother Nature?

No evidence that I've ever seen.

A savior, and pleasure for the rest of time would be Godly, and deeply satisfying. The problem of evil creates faction, but either side of the debate has the rite to choose what they believe.

Sounds OK but once what is your evidence?

 

[blü 2]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

I've been threatened along those lines once or twice on the debate boards here (ie very rarely), but never as an individual face to face.

I take it as a sign that they're unable to make a substantial reply to the particular issue (ie that I'm winning the debate) if that's the best reply they can find.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And why do you suppose religion uses these threats, warnings, or whatever we want to label them, to retain believers..

It is not a case of "retaining believers" .. it is a case of warning us of dire consequences,
if we do not take heed.

An example
-----------------
A parent tells their child "don't do such-and-such or I will punish you", because they know the consequences will not be good for their child .. they care about them, and that is why they have told them.
It is NOT that they are threatening them out of spite or for their own benefit etc.

..so in a similar way, G-d is telling us of consequences of our deeds .. "hell" is of our
own making .. there is NOT "a person called G-d", who literally throws us into fire.
As another poster has said, hell is a state of mind.

I know it's several sentences long so it might take a lot of focus and concentration for you to understand what I said..

I know what you said, but I don't agree with you for the reasons stated above.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

I generally feel sorry for them.

 

[Link]

If your religion/religious text were true and could actually provide evidence that it is true, do you think it would need to threaten people for not believing in it? This is a key difference between religion and math/science. A mathematician uses facts and logic to prove statements, a religious person uses threats of eternal torture. What would you do if your math teacher said that the square root of 2 was irrational because he said so and told you to just shut up and believe it because you'd be sent to hell if you didn't? You would laugh in his face. Mathematicians and scientists don't have to threaten people to demonstrate that they are right, instead they use facts and evidence to backup their claims.

I see what you are saying.

I think the way it should be humans all agree upon proofs of religion as well. However, when it comes to God and religion, we are more insincere and even to a degree stubborn.

Let's take away the issue of hell for disbelievers in Messengers for a second. What if there was hell regardless, should God warn about it? I think he should.

It seems you have more of a dispute with why disbelievers are going to hell and why they are threatened. The Quran says whether warned or not warned, they won't accept. So it's not to convince the majority of them. Quran acknowledges it won't work.

However, there is a verse that says that pious of bani-Israel (children of Israel) were asked why they warn people they know won't listen and continue to disobey, they said, for (1) to be free from blame (2) that there is a chance they may fear God.

Although little chance, the chance is there.

God is trying to salvage what he can of humans and jinn.

Then comes the question, okay hell for evil people, but why are disbelievers deemed evil per Quran. And it's not simply for rejecting truth but that truth has proofs and is manifest to a great degree (and hidden to a great degree).

I see this for example with regards to Imam Ali (a). People when they hear proofs whether in hadiths or Quran, they turn aside.

So it's not just atheists.

 

[soulsurvivor]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

It does not bother me because I don't believe there is a hell.

But the goats of the world (as defined in Matthew 25 31-46) should not be too sanguine, there is definitely some punishment (non-eternal) for those who do not care about the well-being of others.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I see what you are saying.

I think the way it should be humans all agree upon proofs of religion as well. However, when it comes to God and religion, we are more insincere and even to a degree stubborn.

Let's take away the issue of hell for disbelievers in Messengers for a second. What if there was hell regardless, should God warn about it? I think he should.

It seems you have more of a dispute with why disbelievers are going to hell and why they are threatened. The Quran says whether warned or not warned, they won't accept. So it's not to convince the majority of them. Quran acknowledges it won't work.

However, there is a verse that says that pious of bani-Israel (children of Israel) were asked why they warn people they know won't listen and continue to disobey, they said, for (1) to be free from blame (2) that there is a chance they may fear God.

Although little chance, the chance is there.

God is trying to salvage what he can of humans and jinn.

Then comes the question, okay hell for evil people, but why are disbelievers deemed evil per Quran. And it's not simply for rejecting truth but that truth has proofs and is manifest to a great degree (and hidden to a great degree).

I see this for example with regards to Imam Ali (a). People when they hear proofs whether in hadiths or Quran, they turn aside.

So it's not just atheists.

You say all humans should agree on a proof of God--why do you think they don't? What is your proof that Islam is true? If there is one true god, why did he allow such confusion as to who he is and which religion is correct and why did no one ever discover the same religious beliefs independently in two different parts of the world?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You say all humans should agree on a proof of God--why do you think they don't?

..because mankind are tribal in nature..

What is your proof that Islam is true?

There is no proof .. only evidence. i.e. the Quran

If there is one true god, why did he allow such confusion as to who he is..

It is about our nature .. G-d gave all creatures their nature .. and our nature allows us to
move towards G-d, or move away from G-d .. in our minds, obviously.
A person who tunes in spiritually .. by that I mean WANTS to find truth etc. can
make spiritual progress .. and the opposite is also true.

If G-d had so desired, He could have made us all subservient to Him (like the angels),
but He created us as we are .. in that way, we have been given responsibility over our own affairs.

..why did no one ever discover the same religious beliefs independently in two different parts of the world?

How can we know that this is not so? eg. some time during the last 10,000 years

 

[vulcanlogician]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

I feel like the person has run out of logical arguments.

 

[Link]

You say all humans should agree on a proof of God--why do you think they don't? What is your proof that Islam is true? If there is one true god, why did he allow such confusion as to who he is and which religion is correct and why did no one ever discover the same religious beliefs independently in two different parts of the world?

Salam

There is a big explanation of why they don't. I was going to write it all up, but, I will simplify, Take away Satan and his forces and their dark magic, we would all be united. Aside from that, is the fact people who revelations are revealed to turn on their backs (has been the case, doesn't have to be, but has been), and the same happened with last Nabi (s).

As for independently - I think Tao and Quran go well, in that regard. Maybe more texts exist, just we are unaware.

As for proof, there are many. Among them is arguing for the abstract religion and finding only one particular instance of it. Another is the signs of precise speech in Quran and subtle miracles in that regard. Another is just the sound of the Quran - and how all type of voices can recite and it beautifies their voice.

 

[MonkeyFire]

It does not bother me because I don't believe there is a hell.

But the goats of the world (as defined in Matthew 25 31-46) should not be too sanguine, there is definitely some punishment (non-eternal) for those who do not care about the well-being of others.

The perfect crime is to send sinners to a hell where torment is kept as a prisoner. Hell can be a beautiful, and spiritual place…

 

[soulsurvivor]

The perfect crime is to send sinners to a hell where torment is kept as a prisoner. Hell can be a beautiful, and spiritual place…

I am not quite sure what that means, but it sounds very profound.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Salam

There is a big explanation of why they don't. I was going to write it all up, but, I will simplify, Take away Satan and his forces and their dark magic, we would all be united. Aside from that, is the fact people who revelations are revealed to turn on their backs (has been the case, doesn't have to be, but has been), and the same happened with last Nabi (s).

As for independently - I think Tao and Quran go well, in that regard. Maybe more texts exist, just we are unaware.

As for proof, there are many. Among them is arguing for the abstract religion and finding only one particular instance of it. Another is the signs of precise speech in Quran and subtle miracles in that regard. Another is just the sound of the Quran - and how all type of voices can recite and it beautifies their voice.

1) Why did your god create a devil, or "satan" that he knew would thwart his plans? Or did he secretly somehow want the devil to get his way sometimes?
2) Okay, I see. So the fact that the recitation of the Quran is aesthetically pleasing to you personally is proof that God exists and people who don't believe in it go to hell? How is that argument any better than me saying I like the song Space Lord by Monster Magnet which is about the alien god Cthulhu , therefore Cthulhu exists and created the universe?