How does one change one's varna?

[sayak83]

It is often said that one's varna depends on one's actions and not birth. So it should be possible for one to change one's varna in modern Hinduism dependent on one's actions. So how does one go about doing it, and how is appropriateness/inappropriateness decided?

 

[Valjean]

You might have to be reborn...

 

[Vinayaka]

It is often said that one's varna depends on one's actions and not birth. So it should be possible for one to change one's varna in modern Hinduism dependent on one's actions. So how does one go about doing it, and how is appropriateness/inappropriateness decided?

It happens naturally. If you are born the son of a farmer, but go to school, get noticed, have your parents send you to college, and become a medical doctor, you've changed your varna.
It's more fluid in today's world, and increasingly so.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

It is often said that one's varna depends on one's actions and not birth. So it should be possible for one to change one's varna in modern Hinduism dependent on one's actions. So how does one go about doing it, and how is appropriateness/inappropriateness decided?

Namaste, Sayakji
Although change to things which can change is inevitable, the wheel of change does seem to turn a bit more slowly sometimes than one might hope, eh?

But does it help to know that "varna" literally means "color" in Sanskrit? And it could obliquely be referring to the impressions stored in the chitta, the repository of thoughts, etc., from this and past lives. Thus, as one goes about his existence and chooses "x" thought, word or deed over "y," he "colors" his chitta, you might say. It could be the equivalent of an ugly "brown" (erroneous, hard-edged delusion) or then again, perhaps a vibrant "green," (a nugget of Truth). (Colors for illustrative purposes only. )

I believe the label of one's birth caste is only that, a cultural label. But the tendencies, energies, abilities, ways and means of interacting with the world is the accumulation of lifetimes of habit and effort which has been found by the sages to settle somewhat into the four varnas. Therefore, a kshatriya will feel most "at ease" performing the duties of a kshatriya. Nevertheless, he can use his intellect's discriminatory powers to "think, act and speak," i.e., color his chitta with the colors of the varna he wishes to achieve. But wanting what isn't already so introduces striving and that's an energy which is not conducive to contentment. So be sure to ask yourself, in the end, just why you want to change labels? I mean varnas. What you are is Atman, nothing short of it. You could just skip the whole exercise of self-identification with the varnas and instead, settle into your true identity as That.

 

[sayak83]

It happens naturally. If you are born the son of a farmer, but go to school, get noticed, have your parents send you to college, and become a medical doctor, you've changed your varna.
It's more fluid in today's world, and increasingly so.

I know that there are significant differences in life cycle rituals depending on one's varna (Upanayana, marraige, how to perform puja, shraddha etc.) If one has very clearly involved in a discipline that belongs to a different varna, should there be a way to officially recognize it in Hinduism? So for example if a millitary man comes and says that he wants to be a part of the Kshatriya varna and be a part of the traditions associated with the groups within the Kshatriya varna, he should be able to do it.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know that there are significant differences in life cycle rituals depending on one's varna (Upanayana, marraige, how to perform puja, shraddha etc.) If one has very clearly involved in a discipline that belongs to a different varna, should there be a way to officially recognize it in Hinduism? So for example if a millitary man comes and says that he wants to be a part of the Kshatriya varna and be a part of the traditions associated with the groups within the Kshatriya varna, he should be able to do it.

Isn't a military man already a kshatriya?

 

[sayak83]

Isn't a military man already a kshatriya?

Not according to Hindu religious rites and rituals that affect much of his or her religious life. Those are still determined by his family gotra if that gotra does not fall under Kshatriya varna. The life and dharma rituals are designed for varna but has been associated with family gotra-s from late classical period as professions became hereditary. This creates dysfunction in dharma in the modern world .For example a pacifist may have to do weapon puja as part of a ceremony merely because he belongs to a gotra that was traditionally of a kshatriya varna, or a vegetarian person may have to kill a fish during wedding as they traditionally belonged to a fisherman gotra. In other cases people who toil very hard are usually exempt from many of the food restrictions a Brahmin man or woman has, but cannot take advantage of them as they are in the Brahmin gotra. There still remains significant restrictions in many places on who can learn and officiate in Vedic yajna and puja-s based on family gotra system.Therefore it is my view that some effort should be made in correctly identifying one's varna so that a proper identification is made regarding which set of rituals and religious ceremonies are appropriate for him (her).

 

[sayak83]

Namaste, Sayakji
Although change to things which can change is inevitable, the wheel of change does seem to turn a bit more slowly sometimes than one might hope, eh?

But does it help to know that "varna" literally means "color" in Sanskrit? And it could obliquely be referring to the impressions stored in the chitta, the repository of thoughts, etc., from this and past lives. Thus, as one goes about his existence and chooses "x" thought, word or deed over "y," he "colors" his chitta, you might say. It could be the equivalent of an ugly "brown" (erroneous, hard-edged delusion) or then again, perhaps a vibrant "green," (a nugget of Truth). (Colors for illustrative purposes only. )

I believe the label of one's birth caste is only that, a cultural label. But the tendencies, energies, abilities, ways and means of interacting with the world is the accumulation of lifetimes of habit and effort which has been found by the sages to settle somewhat into the four varnas. Therefore, a kshatriya will feel most "at ease" performing the duties of a kshatriya. Nevertheless, he can use his intellect's discriminatory powers to "think, act and speak," i.e., color his chitta with the colors of the varna he wishes to achieve. But wanting what isn't already so introduces striving and that's an energy which is not conducive to contentment. So be sure to ask yourself, in the end, just why you want to change labels? I mean varnas. What you are is Atman, nothing short of it. You could just skip the whole exercise of self-identification with the varnas and instead, settle into your true identity as That.

This is not my own problem. I am an out and out Brahmin both by gotra and by my inclinations. But these things concern me as, probably being a Brahmin by inclination, I feel a duty towards making an effort so that people find Hindu life practices and rituals seamlessly integrated to the natural gifts of their character. Its an itch a tailor has when he sees people wearing clothes that do not fit them properly, if you get my drift.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Forgive me, but to this day I am still confused by the following terms: Caste, Varna and Jati. Can someone provide definitions for them and what makes them distinct from one another?

 

[Vinayaka]

This is not my own problem. I am an out and out Brahmin both by gotra and by my inclinations. But these things concern me as, probably being a Brahmin by inclination, I feel a duty towards making an effort so that people find Hindu life practices and rituals seamlessly integrated to the natural gifts of their character. Its an itch a tailor has when he sees people wearing clothes that do not fit them properly, if you get my drift.

Clearly it varies by community. I'm not sure where you are, or how much you're travelled around to see how others live. or to have seen the many many exceptions that I've seen.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

This is not my own problem. Iam an out and out Brahmin both by gotra and by my inclinations. But these things concern me as, probably being a Brahmin by inclination, I feel a duty towards making an effort so that people find Hindu life practices and rituals seamlessly integrated to the natural gifts of their character. Its an itch a tailor has when he sees people wearing clothes that do not fit them properly, if you get my drift.

So beautifully said, Sayakji and I do get your drift as well as the well-formed sense of duty you feel. If practices and rituals are important--and I'm in no way saying they aren't, for some they are the steps of the ladder which stirs the vasanas of previous spiritual endeavor--then absolutely, finding out some way to know one's varna would be incredibly useful. Especially for Western Hindus.

It is often said that one's varna depends on one's actions and not birth. So it should be possible for one to change one's varna in modern Hinduism dependent on one's actions

The above statements are literally correct, though I wonder if the "they who often say" are divorcing gotra from the mix? Since you are speaking of traditional views of varna, one's birth obviously DOES matter, does it not? And if it is possible to change one's varna today, it was possible from the beginning. So not quite sure what you mean by "modern Hinduism"? Can you explain, please?

 

[Vinayaka]

Not according to Hindu religious rites and rituals that affect much of his or her religious life. Those are still determined by his family gotra if that gotra does not fall under Kshatriya varna. The life and dharma rituals are designed for varna but has been associated with family gotra-s from late classical period as professions became hereditary. This creates dysfunction in dharma in the modern world .For example a pacifist may have to do weapon puja as part of a ceremony merely because he belongs to a gotra that was traditionally of a kshatriya varna, or a vegetarian person may have to kill a fish during wedding as they traditionally belonged to a fisherman gotra. In other cases people who toil very hard are usually exempt from many of the food restrictions a Brahmin man or woman has, but cannot take advantage of them as they are in the Brahmin gotra. There still remains significant restrictions in many places on who can learn and officiate in Vedic yajna and puja-s based on family gotra system.Therefore it is my view that some effort should be made in correctly identifying one's varna so that a proper identification is made regarding which set of rituals and religious ceremonies are appropriate for him (her).

Again, I don't understand. You are saying that a military man (a person in the army or navy) is NOT a kshatriya?

 

[sayak83]

Again, I don't understand. You are saying that a military man (a person in the army or navy) is NOT a kshatriya?

No they are. But the current gotra system may prevent them to participate in Hindu life rituals that are more appropriate for Kshatriya-s.

 

[Vinayaka]

No they are. But the current gotra system may prevent them to participate in Hindu life rituals that are more appropriate for Kshatriya-s.

So kshatriyas can't be kshatriyas?

 

[sayak83]

So beautifully said, Sayakji and I do get your drift as well as the well-formed sense of duty you feel. If practices and rituals are important--and I'm in no way saying they aren't, for some they are the steps of the ladder which stirs the vasanas of previous spiritual endeavor--then absolutely, finding out some way to know one's varna would be incredibly useful. Especially for Western Hindus.

Thanks. I believe it will be useful for everyone.

The above statements are literally correct, though I wonder if the "they who often say" are divorcing gotra from the mix? Since you are speaking of traditional views of varna, one's birth obviously DOES matter, does it not? And if it is possible to change one's varna today, it was possible from the beginning. So not quite sure what you mean by "modern Hinduism"? Can you explain, please?

In Mahabharata and the Upanisads, the view is expressed that varna is prescribed by merit and not by birth-right. Yet there is very little in the scriptures (as far as I know) that tells how this is supposed to be done. Most of the "how" manuals (grihya-sutras etc.) come from late antiquity when, because of the necessarily hereditary nature of learning that runs through families in pre-modern society, family gotra-s have become strongly associated with varna and such questions were moot. Now that knowledge transmission is no longer constrained like this, its high time to discuss the "how".

 

[sayak83]

So kshatriyas can't be kshatriyas?

Not in their religious and life ritual practices...yes.

You do not know this?

 

[Vinayaka]

So can Indians be Indians? So can Canadians be Canadians? Can men be men?

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Thanks. I believe it will be useful for everyone. In Mahabharata and the Upanisads, the view is expressed that varna is prescribed by merit and not by birth-right. Yet there is very little in the scriptures (as far as I know) that tells how this is supposed to be done. Most of the "how" manuals (grihya-sutras etc.) come from late antiquity when, because of the necessarily hereditary nature of learning that runs through families in pre-modern society, family gotra-s have become strongly associated with varna and such questions were moot. Now that knowledge transmission is no longer constrained like this, its high time to discuss the "how".

I'm sort of chuckling here because while I don't think a shudra, say, would have an issue with my aspiring to their varna, with many, many of the Brahmins I've encountered, it might, no, it would be another story. I cannot discount the majority of my experiences both here in the West and in India with "native" Brahmins; all things considered, such as my appearance as a white, Western Hindu woman--my aspirations, obvious though unstated, were often met with arrogance, resistance, derision or thinly veiled amusement. And that included not only the social elites who "ran" with my famous guru, but also a chunk of the greedy pujaris, as well. Oh, well, LOL, as you say, "Not my problem." However, I would be remiss in my duty if I didn't note that it's refreshing not to get that vibe from you, Sayakji.

 

[sayak83]

I'm sort of chuckling here because while I don't think a shudra, say, would have an issue with my aspiring to their varna, with many, many of the Brahmins I've encountered, it might, no, it would be another story. I cannot discount the majority of my experiences both here in the West and in India with "native" Brahmins; all things considered, such as my appearance as a white, Western Hindu woman--my aspirations, obvious though unstated, were often met with arrogance, resistance, derision or thinly veiled amusement. And that included not only the social elites who "ran" with my famous guru, but also a chunk of the greedy pujaris, as well. Oh, well, LOL, as you say, "Not my problem." However, I would be remiss in my duty if I didn't note that it's refreshing not to get that vibe from you, Sayakji.

I am sorry that this was your experience.

 

[sayak83]

So can Indians be Indians? So can Canadians be Canadians? Can men be men?

are u saying it is not the case right now that only people belonging to gotra-s traditionally associated with a varna can perform the specific ceremonies in the life rituals associated with that varna? (Note:- I am not talking about new converts)