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How Far Should We Go to Protect People's Feelings?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In recent years, there have been many cases of people denied platforms to speak to audiences by publicly funded institutions, such as universities and even radio stations.

So, what are the reasons or grounds for denying a speaker a platform on which to speak? And are those reasons or grounds justified?

What has happened is this: There has been a shift or change in the philosophical grounds on which freedom of speech has traditionally been limited. The old, less restrictive, reasons have been kicked out the door, and new, more restrictive, reasons have been adopted. But is that a good thing or a bad thing?

To answer that question, let's take a look first at the old reasons, and then the new ones.

In the mid-1800s, many poor people in Britain were going hungry because they could not afford to buy "corn" -- that is grains, such as wheat and barely -- because the prices were too high. They were too high because the corn merchants were buying up the grains, storing them rather than immediately selling them, and thus driving up the prices as the demand for the grains increased.

Naturally, some hungry folks started complaining that the corn merchants were immoral and inhumane, and naturally they were denounced as "radicals" by the conservatives, who began agitating for laws limiting the rights of the alleged radicals to criticize the corn merchants.

Into the mess stepped the most influential thinker of the age, John Stuart Mill. He basically settled the issue by arguing that freedom of speech could only be limited by a government in cases where the speech incited people to commit crimes. "Burn down the merchant's houses!" "Beat up the merchants" Such things were legitimately outlawed, Mill said, but not such things as, "The merchant's are immoral!".

Mill's "harm principle", as it came to be called, eventually spread across the Western World. And that's how things stood up until the 1980s.

In the 1980s, an American philosopher with a bit of an authoritarian bent, Joel Feinberg, began arguing that speech can also be limited on the grounds that it is "seriously offensive". Feinberg argued that some speech was so hurtful both societies and individuals would inevitably find it disgusting, repulsive, and shocking, and feel shame and embarrassment because of it. This became known as the "offense principle".

Ironically, though Feinberg was a bit of an authoritarian, his principle caught on with the left. Specifically, the extreme left. First in American, and then spreading to Britain. And that's where we are today.

Now, I see at least three ready criticisms of the offense principle.

First, who gets to decide what is "seriously offensive". It's easy to see, I think, how important that question is. Simply ask yourself if you would want people who were politically opposed to you to decide?

Second, there is nothing about the principle in itself that would limit or restrict what might be deemed seriously offensive speech. Today, it is already being applied on some campuses to "unplatform" people who say "abusive and hateful" things about Islam. But nothing about the principle prevents it from tomorrow being applied to people who say abusive and hateful things about cats.

Next, human nature being what it is, there is every reason to suspect some powerful group will take advantage of the principle to crush its enemies That is, the principle not only allows that to happen, but it will happen, given human nature.​

You might think those are obvious and compelling criticisms, but so far as I know, they are being ignored or dismissed by the extreme left.

So there you have it. Is the offense principle a good basis on which governments should limit speech? If so, why? If not, why not?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, it is not. I am not quite sure of the reasons why it is not, but I am certain that one of them is that it does not solve anything and creates a bottling up of frustration that will unavoidably seek release by some other means, probably more destructive ones.

Reliance on "safe spaces", I have come to realize, is harmful in and of itself, despite having undeniable appeal in the immediate term. It leaves grievances to fester and grow, and can only make mistrust grow.
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
Well words do have power. That much is true I feel.

The fact is however feelings like repulsion shock and disgust are responses that we must address appropriately, gagging those that cause outrage with public speech, might serve the immediate purpose of preventing these feelings being engendered however who is to say that it is right or healthy that we should try to insulate people from these experiences by statutory instrument. Isn't that social engineering?

I despise the far right and their indifference to human suffering, but they must be allowed to freely express their views, so that we may address them and destroy their argument in full view.

I do not trust censorship. It is a tool of control whatever the outcome.

I think the power of censorship belongs to the individual, if you hate what someone says, tell them, or ignore them. I don't want the state to have the power of speech control over my legal person.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only say that it's a mixture of good and bad in various amounts.

Honestly I think we place freedom of speech on such a high pedestal that we often forget what it does and doesn't not pertain to. Including a private institution deciding what kind of speech it will or will not sponsor. In one's own house you can decide to not give a platform to whomever. And the idea that the only way to approach rational, intelligent discourse is to weigh equally all sides of the issue is, to me, a clear example of false dilemma (or argument of moderation). There is no reason to 'teach the controversy' of every viewpoint. And as for hurt feelings, should we care if they get their feelings hurt over the exclusion?
pyramid.gif

Plus, this is the pendulum swinging from a hyperconservative ideal to 'walk off' bullying and abuse, which kept the power square in the hands of the bullies. 'Walk it off' was originally coined in conjunction with military service because of PTSD denialism and understanding that words matter and can be as harmful as sticks and stones.

With that said, freedom of speech does pertain to government speech moderation in this country. And things which would be illegal in other countries are, for better or worse, legal here without government intervention. From holocaust denial to teaching gay kids that they have to change who they are or they will be eternally tormented (Yes, I'm one of those people who views teaching kids that they're going to hell for being gay is active psychological abuse.) Even though these troubling things can happen, I am just as wary as the next American over government censored speech and think we should keep a careful eye to prevent such policy.

And I also think dialogues with people who make hurtful comments has to happen sometime, in some way. I just don't think they should always be given it on their terms, with the often victimized groups having to bear the brunt of that dialogue.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Ironically, though Feinberg was a bit of an authoritarian, his principle caught on with the left. Specifically, the extreme left. First in American, and then spreading to Britain. And that's where we are today.
There's some truth in that but you left out how diaper donnie and his slavish minions attack those on the left for exercising their right of free speech with measures even including physical attacks.

I'm carefully drawing a distinction between what goes on in a few venues such as some college campuses and society as a whole. And I want to underline how some Christians want a safe place for Christian prayer but get upset when Muslims, pagans, atheists, and Cthulhu worshipers not to mention those on a left-handed path want time for their speech.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
So there you have it. Is the offense principle a good basis on which governments should limit speech? If so, why? If not, why not?

I don't think governments should limit speech based on the offense principle. I'm ok with a private business choosing to limit speech based on the offense principle. If you don't like the rules regarding speech you can always go to another place of business. If the governments starts limiting speech, it's not so easy to pick up and move to another country.

I don't even mind universities limiting speech but I think they are doing a huge disservice to their students by doing so. In some ways, speech is an art form. I don't think it is a good idea for a university to limit the art of speech.
 

james blunt

Well-Known Member
So there you have it. Is the offense principle a good basis on which governments should limit speech? If so, why? If not, why not?

Do you want it straight ?

Well here goes:

Most of the worlds population are a bunch of cry babies, are too stupid to just be deaf. They think with their ears and think with their eyes completely ignoring their brain. Now being a cry baby is not a natural instinct of evolution, it is subjectively embedded into our minds .
I have personally surpassed this subjective ''programming'' and people can call me whatever they like , I will take no offense what so ever.
Now if the whole world was not such cry babies and everyone broke their programming, the eventuality is , name calling will just become pointless and inevitably end.

People are to stupid to realise they are making it meaningful when it is not meaningful.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Well words do have power. That much is true I feel.

The fact is however feelings like repulsion shock and disgust are responses that we must address appropriately, gagging those that cause outrage with public speech, might serve the immediate purpose of preventing these feelings being engendered however who is to say that it is right or healthy that we should try to insulate people from these experiences by statutory instrument. Isn't that social engineering?

I despise the far right and their indifference to human suffering, but they must be allowed to freely express their views, so that we may address them and destroy their argument in full view.

I do not trust censorship. It is a tool of control whatever the outcome.

I think the power of censorship belongs to the individual, if you hate what someone says, tell them, or ignore them. I don't want the state to have the power of speech control over my legal person.

You despise the far right, but not the far left?

I wonder what is the indifferance to suffering you refer to.

I think Mao was far left.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Do you want it straight ?

Well here goes:

Most of the worlds population are a bunch of cry babies, are too stupid to just be deaf. They think with their ears and think with their eyes completely ignoring their brain. Now being a cry baby is not a natural instinct of evolution, it is subjectively embedded into our minds .
I have personally surpassed this subjective ''programming'' and people can call me whatever they like , I will take no offense what so ever.
Now if the whole world was not such cry babies and everyone broke their programming, the eventuality is , name calling will just become pointless and inevitably end.

People are to stupid to realise they are making it meaningful when it is not meaningful.

MOST of the people in the world are barely getting
by, if they do at all. I believe they would have a bit
of a time wondering wtf your deal is, if they had the
leftover energy for the luxury of idle thought.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In recent years, there have been many cases of people denied platforms to speak to audiences by publicly funded institutions, such as universities and even radio stations.

So, what are the reasons or grounds for denying a speaker a platform on which to speak? And are those reasons or grounds justified?
Providing or denying a platform to speak does not have a bearing on freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is about whether the government will punish you for saying something. It's not about:

- being entitled to a particular venue or medium (or entitled to get it on particular terms)
- being protected against criticism
- how people regard you for your speech
- whether private individuals decide to take action against you because of your speech.

The issues at play when a speaker can't speak at a public university are usually other things, such as:

- academic freedom (if it's a professor's speech that's at issue)
- the right (duty?) of the university to protect its own reputation
- discrimination (e.g. allowing speakers of some religions to speak but not others)
- the duty of the university to uphold various standards (e.g. human rights codes)
- internal university rules (e.g. the club hosting a speaker is charged fees that cover use of facilities but then being denied the use of those facilities)
- potential liability for the university (e.g. if the university is seen as endorsing illegal speech or acts that might happen at an event)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When it comes to a university, I think the institution should be given fairly free reign to deny speakers a venue.

Often, the whole reason that the university is being approached to host an event is because the academic setting and the reputation of the university will give the event a certain cachet of legitimacy. When someone is trying to ride the coattails of the university this way, it's perfectly fine for the university to say "no" to any event it doesn't want to be associated with, whether it's a lecture by a misogynist or a homeopathy conference. Let them rent a meeting room at a local hotel instead.
 

CruzNichaphor

Active Member
Offending people's feelings should always take a back seat during respectful public discourse.

Government should never get in the way of free speech - no matter how extreme or potentially offensive the messages may be; people always have the opportunity to shun the message if they have a problem with it. If it goes the other way; the inverse occurs and people are therefore forced to accept messages whether they like it or not - this should be avoided at all costs.

In our awesome culture (probably the greatest civilization that has ever existed), either everything is okay to say or nothing is - I choose the former.

If someone's feelings are hurt - they have every right to cover their ears.

This whole issue has become beyond ridiculous and today's tertiary facilities should be ashamed of themselves for facilitating what they have recently.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
When it comes to a university, I think the institution should be given fairly free reign to deny speakers a venue.

Often, the whole reason that the university is being approached to host an event is because the academic setting and the reputation of the university will give the event a certain cachet of legitimacy. When someone is trying to ride the coattails of the university this way, it's perfectly fine for the university to say "no" to any event it doesn't want to be associated with, whether it's a lecture by a misogynist or a homeopathy conference. Let them rent a meeting room at a local hotel instead.

As I understand it most universities, up until the safe spacers showed up, allowed official student groups or clubs to invite any speaker they wanted to. For example the student GOP group could ask Ann Coulter to speak, the philosopher's club could ask a Neo-Nazi to speak, and the university's socialist club could ask a Marxist to speak.

This is - IMO - as it should be. To me the rule is a simple one, and it has the do to with the right to listen:

I don't know of anyone smart enough to decide for me what I cannot hear.

 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As I understand it most universities, up until the safe spacers showed up, allowed official student groups or clubs to invite any speaker they wanted to. For example the student GOP group could ask Ann Coulter to speak, the philosopher's club could ask a Neo-Nazi to speak, and the university's socialist club could ask a Marxist to speak.

This is - IMO - as it should be. To me the rule is a simple one, and it has the do to with the right to listen:

I don't know of anyone smart enough to decide for me what I cannot hear.
No university can stop you from hearing a speaker. All a university can do is, in a limited way, dictate whether the speaker will appear on campus or someplace else.

Denial of a particular venue is not a freedom of speech issue. Edit: a university that decides not to host Ann Coulter has not stopped you from hearing Ann Coulter.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As I understand it most universities, up until the safe spacers showed up, allowed official student groups or clubs to invite any speaker they wanted to.
Out of curiosity: care to put a date on when you think "the safe spacers showed up?"
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No university can stop you from hearing a speaker. All a university can do is, in a limited way, dictate whether the speaker will appear on campus or someplace else.

Denial of a particular venue is not a freedom of speech issue. Edit: a university that decides not to host Ann Coulter has not stopped you from hearing Ann Coulter.

What has been happening a lot recently is various forms of heckler's vetoes on campuses. A common occurrence is that a student group is approved to invite a speaker and then other groups protest to get the speaker dis-invited. Or, the speaker comes, and protestors take over the venue and scuttle the talk in real time.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
i'm not sure i know why it matters - maybe as early as 10 years ago? maybe only 3-5 years ago?
I wanted to see if you thought my undergrad experience fell into the "safe spacer" era you were talking about; I graduated 15 years ago.

I was also the president of a student club. Nothing controversial; just the photography club. Still, I got to learn about my school's rules governing clubs.

Any posters we put up had to be approved by administration ahead of time. We never had guest speakers, but we had to get approval for our annual student photo exhibit.

Clubs weren't allowed to have external bank accounts; all of our funds had to be held by the Federation of Students; if we broke our code of conduct, our account would be frozen. If the club disbanded - or was forced to disband by the school - the money in our account would have been kept by the Federation of Students.

I don't recall any controversial speakers that ever even got announced as invited by a student club, so no invitations were ever rescinded (that I know of). The student newspaper had to be reined in once or twice, though.

My personal experience is just one data point, but things seem to have relaxed since I was in school. The administration kept tight enough control that the sort of people who get disinvited from universities today didn't get invited in the first place.

What (and when) was your experience?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My personal experience is just one data point, but things seem to have relaxed since I was in school. The administration kept tight enough control that the sort of people who get disinvited from universities today didn't get invited in the first place.

What (and when) was your experience?

My uni days were a looooong time ago, and I don't recall any instances of de-platforming or heckler's vetoes. I went to school in Boulder and I remember going to large protests at a nearby nuclear weapons facility called Rocky Flats.

What I'm more concerned with is current events when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Ben Shapiro or Dave Rubin or Lindsey Shepard and so on, get de-platformed one way or another. When, in effect, one student group censors another.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What has been happening a lot recently is various forms of heckler's vetoes on campuses. A common occurrence is that a student group is approved to invite a speaker and then other groups protest to get the speaker dis-invited. Or, the speaker comes, and protestors take over the venue and scuttle the talk in real time.
How many times is "a lot" or "common?"

And you're objecting to protesters being allowed to protest? What happened to not wanting others to decide what you can't hear?
 
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