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How God is not loving

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
about (2), all (5), case* (3), cause* (1), circumstances* (3), companions* (8), condition* (1), experiences (2), far (1), followers* (1), former* (1), meat (1), one (6), one who (1), one* (1), others (4), others* (1), outsiders* (3), people (1), sight (1), some (7), some* (5), suitable (1), these (4), things (1), this (31), those (406), those who (17), together* (8), under* (1), welfare (1), what (47), what had happened (1), what* (1), which (14), who (52), whoever (8), whom (4).
http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

It looks like it says simply, "gifts of men".

I think you need to recheck you reference, nothing you posted has to do with, men, of, gifts, to or in.

This is the one you need,

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/4-8.htm
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Really? The pain of getting new teeth can be compared to having you flesh ripped and torn? Having a crown of thorns forced on your head? Having nails driven into your hands and feet? Did these people you know opt out of the novocain or nitrous?

Well, those people are motivated by the same hope. That this will end soon. But some even go further. Some even risk their lives for saving a drowining dog, without the certainty, or even hope, to come back alive and kicking after three days. Not to speak of people who gave their lives for their family, country or whatever, without any of the certainties that a God is supposed to possess.

But in the case of your God, it is not even a hope. There is no doubt whatsoever about the unfolding of events. it is a certainty. He will return after two nights. As God He should know and have full control over it.

And we are supposed to buy this as the ultimate sacrifice? Really?

Ciao

- viole
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think you need to recheck you reference, nothing you posted has to do with, men, of, gifts, to or in.

This is the one you need,

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/4-8.htm
On that page click on the Greek app. Forget the "to" as it was added to the word ἀνθρώποις. Look at the example Luke 1:25 where is is simply "men". Click on transliteration tous Strong's 3588. It is simply, "the". Sometimes "to" is added but that seems to be opinion.

I think you agree with me that personal opinion is not fitting for knowing what words which are attributed to God mean.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
If this God actually existed, I would choose to destroy Him off the face of this universe once and for all.

wegotabadass-01.jpg



 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
And we are supposed to buy this as the ultimate sacrifice? Really?

The way I see it, 'if' what I believe is not true, I've lost nothing, I've believed in something that has no effect on my death. But, 'if' what I believe is true, I am saved from an eternity in hell!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The course of life and the tongue are set on fire by the metaphor of "everlasting death"?

James 3:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell [everlasting death].

"The disciple James’ use of the word “Gehenna” shows that an unruly tongue is itself a world of unrighteousness and that one’s whole round of living can be affected by fiery words that defile the speaker’s body. The tongue of such a one, “full of death-dealing poison” and so giving evidence of a bad heart condition, can cause the user to be sentenced by God to go to the symbolic Gehenna.—Jas 3:6, 8; compare Mt 12:37; Ps 5:9; 140:3; Ro 3:13.
The Biblical use of Gehenna as a symbol corresponds to that of “the lake of fire” in the book of Revelation.—Re 20:14, 15" (Insight Volume 1)

When we are dead, and in the grave, we will be in torment? How can that be if we cease to exist?

One can only be tormented when conscious. But the dead are not conscious....
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10:
"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (NASB)

Psalm 115:17:
"The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor do any who go down into silence"
(NASB)

Luke 16:22-24 (ESV Strong's) The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades [the grave], being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

How many times has this been covered.....this is a parable illustrating the situation between the Pharisees (pictured by the rich man) and the "lost sheep" (pictured by the spiritually impoverished beggar). When Jesus came, each died to his former condition. The rich man lost his position of favor (the bosom of Abraham) and the beggar gained it.
Jesus' teachings tormented the Pharisees, who were spiritually dead to God, but the beggar found refreshment in them.
To take this as literal is just silly. As if heaven and hell are in speaking distance to one another? And as if a drop of water would cool someone in a fire.[/QUOTE]
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The way I see it, 'if' what I believe is not true, I've lost nothing, I've believed in something that has no effect on my death. But, 'if' what I believe is true, I am saved from an eternity in hell!

The way I see it is, that at this "time of the end" Jesus is directing the greatest preaching campaign in the history of the world. He told his anointed disciples to "go and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them" (Matthew 28:19-20) so as Christ's followers, we have an obligation just as the prophets of old did when warning Israel about God's impending judgments and to offer the good news to all. We have an obligation to teach those who want to learn, but to warn those who do not want to accept the truth.

The obligation is weighty, as God told his prophet Ezekiel....
Ezekiel 3:17-21:
“Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. 20 Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself. (NASB)

Anyone can call themselves a "Christian" but Jesus will reject "many" at the judgment because they refused to be cleansed of their false doctrines. (Matthew 7:21-23)

If they want to believe a delusion, God will let them. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

We also have to obey the direct command of God to "get out of Babylon the great" (Revelation 18:4-5) If we fail to do that, we will have sealed our own fate.

There are only "sheep" and "goats" in the world when Jesus comes as judge, so we are all in either one category or the other.....we have choices to make regarding our response to the good news and our treatment of Christ's "brothers".

Only those whom Jesus recognizes as "sheep" will inherit everlasting life. The goats will be eliminated from existence forever. (Matthew 25:41)

There is no heaven or hell...there is only everlasting life or everlasting death.
 

Ana.J

Active Member
How can we experience happiness without suffering? I mean how do you know what emotion you are experiencing? How would you enjoy life if you have never had any hardship? This life is just a game we play in the flash suits. It is complicated and cruel sometimes....but this makes our experience brighter.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Anyone can call themselves a "Christian" but Jesus will reject "many" at the judgment because they refused to be cleansed of their false doctrines. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So true, and that leaves 'NO ONE' out!


The way I see it is, that at this "time of the end" Jesus is directing the greatest preaching campaign in the history of the world.

I agree, but He is not directing the preaching work that has to be continually "adjusted" because of error.


He told his anointed disciples to "go and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them" (Matthew 28:19-20) so as Christ's followers, we have an obligation just as the prophets of old

Are you an anointed? Do you baptize peoples?


we have choices to make regarding our response to the good news and our treatment of Christ's "brothers".

Is that just the 7 "brothers" in NY, or all 144,000?


There is no heaven or hell...there is only everlasting life or everlasting death.

Really? Then where will the most "righteous" 7 man slave be? Or do you mean there is no heaven or hell for "YOU"?
 

Tabu

Active Member
How can we experience happiness without suffering? I mean how do you know what emotion you are experiencing? How would you enjoy life if you have never had any hardship? This life is just a game we play in the flash suits. It is complicated and cruel sometimes....but this makes our experience brighter.
I don't think one needs suffering to experience happiness , yes we value ease more after an hardship.
Our first parents Adam and Eve didn't know and suffering or hardships and were happy and enjoying in The Gardens.
Old men have so much experiences , but of what use to them , because they cannot change anything of the past nor bring back their youth.
If with knowledge and experience what you get is regret it becomes more painful.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
To take this as literal is just silly. As if heaven and hell are in speaking distance to one another? And as if a drop of water would cool someone in a fire.

It's really sad that, people who claim to be God's chosen people, the "only" people on earth that have the true "spiritual" insight, can't imagine anything being possible outside the physical realm! If they can't picture it happening on earth, it's just "silly".
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The way I see it, 'if' what I believe is not true, I've lost nothing, I've believed in something that has no effect on my death. But, 'if' what I believe is true, I am saved from an eternity in hell!

Are you sure? Suppose that God is Allah, or a God that is very fond of atheists and sends believers to Hell. Or any other God with a Hell ready for everyone that gives a false interpretation of Him (for instance, He has no son and looks like a turtle). Or maybe Christianity is just a master deceit from Satan who wants to join you in Hell by making you believe it.

Since all those Gods/Satan have the same exact evidence as yours, your risk assessment fails right there.

Ciao

- viole
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The premise that the true God inflicts suffering on us for our development is false. "When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." (James 1:13)
This is but one of numerous slanders against Jehovah, often from those who profess to serve him, and who falsely call themselves "Christians".
 

InChrist

Free4ever

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Yes, you are right. But many people think that if there is a God who would cause us suffering, that this would somehow be a loving God and this topic I have made is a means to debunk this nonsensical claim.



Good parents allow their children to want for certain things, when we could easily grant them, because of our love, we realize the greater value, gift, in fostering the child's own understanding, self determination over catering to it's every immediate whim.

Even though the child often views us as 'unfair', even 'cruel' for doing so.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So true, and that leaves 'NO ONE' out!

I couldn't agree more. Wearing a label of any description is pointless if one believes in falsehoods. It's just that Jesus singled out the "many" of those who acknowledge him as "Lord" for special mention. "I never knew you" is a big slap in the face for those who thought they were good Christians, doing all the right things....don't you think? (Matthew 7:21-23)

I agree, but He is not directing the preaching work that has to be continually "adjusted" because of error.

The "good news of the kingdom" itself has not needed adjusting....just our understanding of certain facets of it. Jesus said it would be "food at the proper time" served by his faithful slave....it is what we need to know, when we need to know it. The slave is tireless in his efforts to keep his fellow slaves spiritually well fed and healthy.
There is one table where that "food" is served.....just one. (Ephesians 4:5)

Are you an anointed?

Not me personally, but as my anointed brothers become fewer on the earth, we support them in many ways....the preaching work is just one of them. It is incumbent on all of Christ's disciples to preach because it was to be carried out right to the end of the present system of things, so it wasn't just assigned to the apostles. (Matthew 24:14)
Who else is renown for their preaching in all nations? Is Christendom known for preaching to anyone but the converted? (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20)

Do you baptize peoples?

Not personally, but my brothers do. We have baptisms all the time as people learn about Jehovah and want to serve him as part of his nation on earth today.
You cannot be a Christian without baptism. And you cannot baptize yourself.

Is that just the 7 "brothers" in NY, or all 144,000?

Christ's brothers are all who will rule with him in heaven.....those of us who will be their earthly subjects support them in every way we can.

Really? Then where will the most "righteous" 7 man slave be? Or do you mean there is no heaven or hell for "YOU"?

Who said the slave is more righteous than his fellow slaves? They are our shepherds, not our masters.

There is no heaven or hell scenario as opposite destinations held out in the Bible. Christendom adopted that concept from paganism..
False religion teaches that scenario....or haven't you noticed that this idea is found in all religions around the world....except the Christianity that Jesus promoted, which was founded on OT scripture. Jews did not believe in heaven or hell. It is found in Christendom, but that is because it isn't genuine Christianity...it is the weeds of Jesus parable...distorted flasehood.

There are only two road....one leads to "eternal life" and the other to "eternal destruction". (Matthew 7:13-14) Hell (sheol, hades) is no more scary than unconsciousness.(Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Everyone goes to hell. It is just the grave.

Are all Christians going to heaven then?
2 Thess 1:7-10:
"and to you who are being afflicted to give rest together with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. 8 With flaming fire he will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 when he comes to be glorified among his saints and admired on that day among all who have believed—and you did in fact believe our testimony." (NET)

Read Paul's words there and you will see that he mentions others besides the "saints" (holy ones). He said that afflicted ones would be given rest "along with" those saints and that when he comes to be glorified among his saints he would also be admired bu all who have believed, not just the chosen ones.Two groups inherit salvation but have totally different destinies.

You seem to miss so much when you read the Bible. Perhaps a little less obsession with our GB might sharpen your focus....your vision appears to be very distorted when you scrutinize JW's with such distaste.
 
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