How God is not loving

[Deidre]

You have to understand that no one here is going to take the time to qualify everything they say, particularly when such qualification goes without saying. However, because you evidently haven't caught on to this, let me qualify my statement by saying

"You have to understand the needs of almost all believers. They can't entertain such a notion because it would weaken, perhaps even destroy, their faith. When such things come up these believers simply dismisses them out of hand, purposely blocking them from their mind. So don't expect much of a response, if any, from them. The most you might get is fundamentalist tap dancing pointing out the need for suffering so as to prepare one for a life with god after death."


.​

Where did you come up with this thinking about ''most'' believers though? Have you met most believers? That's all I'm asking.

 

[Gyrannon]

Yes, you are right. But many people think that if there is a God who would cause us suffering, that this would somehow be a loving God and this topic I have made is a means to debunk this nonsensical claim.

Then lets try a different view: Your Parents.
Now I'm not trying to insult or attack or anything of some twisted endeavor.

God (according to religion) is equivalent to a Parent. In fact he expressing referred to as "Heavenly Father" and we are his "Children".
*Trying to find a way to put perspective in this without sounding like a dick*
Did your parents shield you all your life from any possible form of suffering? They love you (I assume an hope they do), is it not a Parent's duty to protect their from the world that may harm them or make them sad in any way?

So now you're equating suffering with challenges. This is getting more bizarre with every post, and I have no desire to contend with your moving goal posts. Have a good day.

Well my intention is not to confuse. Different perspectives & experiences.

*To Mods of RF: Where should I try to explain myself better? I know I'm a complicated person and I do genuinely want people to understand what I'm trying to say, just figured I should just ask*

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Then lets try a different view: Your Parents.
Now I'm not trying to insult or attack or anything of some twisted endeavor.

God (according to religion) is equivalent to a Parent. In fact he expressing referred to as "Heavenly Father" and we are his "Children".
*Trying to find a way to put perspective in this without sounding like a dick*
Did your parents shield you all your life from any possible form of suffering? They love you (I assume an hope they do), is it not a Parent's duty to protect their from the world that may harm them or make them sad in any way?



Well my intention is not to confuse. Different perspectives & experiences.

*To Mods of RF: Where should I try to explain myself better? I know I'm a complicated person and I do genuinely want people to understand what I'm trying to say, just figured I should just ask*

My mom wants me to be happy. She doesn't want me to suffer. If she had the choice right now, she would choose to give me an eternal blissful life that has no suffering since she realizes just how important my happiness and well-being is to me. That would be a truly loving parent (or, in this case, a truly loving God).

But any parent who would throw suffering at their children, regardless of how agonizing it is, then for that parent to say:

"Life isn't easy. Life's a struggle and you must cope with your problems and learn/grow from them."

That would be a cruel parent. It would be that cruel God I pointed out in my opening post in this topic.

 

[Tabu]

Let me see. My child is killed at school in a mass shooting and my sorrow over it is because I did what? In some way I was instrumental in the shooting? All the parents of all the victims were?

How about the grief of slavery. Or is being enslaved a blessing?

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
​

Not at thing about this loving and caring Father showing such a slave the way out during their grief.

​

.

I do not read the Bible , nor is my perception of God Biblical and I disagree with the above mentioned system for justice.

Instead of dealing with some x,y,z s story , do you think there are events in your life where you went through sorrow with no mistakes from your side ?
Were there no incidents in your life where you were in a tough situation and suddenly a ray of hope fills you up ?

I know , many a times, hope becomes tough, impossible and unreachable ,and I have traversed the extremes of such situations but finally at the end of tunnel , however endless it may seem ,there is hope, till then I think one has to make an effort to keep himself distracted from such hopeless thoughts , and it is an appreciable thing that the OP has brought out this topic here , he will find many here who would console him , share their similar experiences with him or even join him in criticizing God. Even this is an outlet of those built in emotions.
Even this is a window which God has opened for him in this moment of grief.

 

[Gyrannon]

Well I'm stumped.

Let me give you a small bit of me here:
I'm a Ex-Christian/Catholic, mainly caused by shattered faith - honestly dunno if I actually ever did have faith in him to begin with.
I wanted an answer. I went to church every sunday, I repented for things that I was told was bad, I prayed to god every single day, and I even tried to help other people join me in that belief. But in a time when my faith or belief was needing revitalizing, I got nothing an felt abandoned.
I was 14 at the time.

After that, I hated god, everything about him, even went so far as to take his name in vain just "get back" at him.

But as I grew older, I started questioning my own hate, my own doubts, and then started wondering "maybe the bible isn't telling the truth", so I examined the bible from an atheist view and at some point I thought I didn't believe in him (honestly I was lying to myself).

Then I started thinking, "What if God isn't ALL Good? What if he is just like us?" cause the bible does state "created in his image".
I've been searching for years for my answers, all I can do is guess & assume.

I came to the point of "theres no point in being against him, theres no point in blaming him" cause for all I know, we could have chosen to live like this an God is merely respecting our wishes. The fact is, I don't know. No one really does.
I don't claim God to be loving or evil, I don't know honestly, I can only hope that he is good & his reason for not stopping us from suffering is a damn good reason.

I am still in the middle of what to believe. And so far, o matter what anyone has said to convince to join in belief of god or against him,
I still keep coming back to my questions - they don't help me hate him, they don't convince me that he isn't real, and they don't help me want to be with him.

The bible is a book written by man. And because of that alone, a single question is what stops me from picking a definitive side; " What if The bible could be what god did not intend and the writers could have lied?"

I'm not trying to defend god or battle against him. I'm just trying to understand & figure out why.

 

[idav]

Well I'm stumped.

Let me give you a small bit of me here:
I'm a Ex-Christian/Catholic, mainly caused by shattered faith - honestly dunno if I actually ever did have faith in him to begin with.
I wanted an answer. I went to church every sunday, I repented for things that I was told was bad, I prayed to god every single day, and I even tried to help other people join me in that belief. But in a time when my faith or belief was needing revitalizing, I got nothing an felt abandoned.
I was 14 at the time.

After that, I hated god, everything about him, even went so far as to take his name in vain just "get back" at him.

But as I grew older, I started questioning my own hate, my own doubts, and then started wondering "maybe the bible isn't telling the truth", so I examined the bible from an atheist view and at some point I thought I didn't believe in him (honestly I was lying to myself).

Then I started thinking, "What if God isn't ALL Good? What if he is just like us?" cause the bible does state "created in his image".
I've been searching for years for my answers, all I can do is guess & assume.

I came to the point of "theres no point in being against him, theres no point in blaming him" cause for all I know, we could have chosen to live like this an God is merely respecting our wishes. The fact is, I don't know. No one really does.
I don't claim God to be loving or evil, I don't know honestly, I can only hope that he is good & his reason for not stopping us from suffering is a damn good reason.

I am still in the middle of what to believe. And so far, o matter what anyone has said to convince to join in belief of god or against him,
I still keep coming back to my questions - they don't help me hate him, they don't convince me that he isn't real, and they don't help me want to be with him.

The bible is a book written by man. And because of that alone, a single question is what stops me from picking a definitive side; " What if The bible could be what god did not intend and the writers could have lied?"

I'm not trying to defend god or battle against him. I'm just trying to understand & figure out why.

The thought of existence rather than not existing is a compelling idea for a good non-destructive kind of god. If god has any power at all then god has a choice and god, for no obvious reason to us mortals, chose for existence to be and life to be. We end up with these choices ourselves and it really is like being "too big for our own britches". In other words its like giving a child a bunch of power that they are not even wise enough to use or know what to do with. We should strive as intelligent beings to make the wisest choices possible for the betterment of life as a whole, using our freedoms and powers to help instead of harming for our own selfish desires.

In reference to the bible you can see this very idea in a mythological format in which God gave us wisdom and chose to hinder us because of our destructive tendencies that can and eventually did creep up. We don't deserve nor can we handle more power and this is evident with what we do with the little power we tap into. Like what we do with the power of an atom, so much power and we can destroy or provide energy and whats the first thing we do? Humans obviously have much to learn before we can be given more freedom and power. This is kind of my over all take on the situation, we are in battle with others that have these same abilities and the human mind is the most powerful machine on the planet, for better or worse, and there are 7 billion of them and counting.

I feel that the more we learn the more we can realize the issues but knowledge is double edged sword and can be used for evil so we should strive to respect life and the value that belongs to all humans and life in general with use of wisdom.

I'm not one who thinks god is a person but god is within everything and is creation/life itself. Procreation being an aspect of the miracle that is existence.

 

[Skwim]

I do not read the Bible , nor is my perception of God Biblical and I disagree with the above mentioned system for justice.

Fine, then simply consider:

My child is killed at school in a mass shooting and my sorrow over it is because I did what? In some way I was instrumental in the shooting? All the parents of all the victims were?​

Instead of dealing with some x,y,z s story , do you think there are events in your life where you went through sorrow with no mistakes from your side ?

It makes no difference. You said "God didn't create sorrow, sorrow is the result of our own misdeeds." Implying that if I am sorrowful it's because of something I did.


And, if you don't read the Bible nor is your perception of God Biblical, just what god or kind of god do you acknowledge?


.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes, I feel that we all need to destroy our concept of god, it has never worked, it has never done any good, we need to drop this illusion and go within and find that which is beyond ourselves, that which we truly are. We need to experience that which we are, this then becomes our truth, everyone will have their own perception of that which they have experienced, you cannot organize this experience because it belongs to you only, and everyone else's experience belongs to them.

This self experience is what true religion is, it was never meant to be organized and shoved into peoples faces, this is why we had so many wars over who's religion is the true religion, we need to change this childish behavior, we need to grow up and mature spiritually, for this is Enlightenment.

 

[Gyrannon]

This self experience is what true religion is, it was never meant to be organized and shoved into peoples faces, this is why we had so many wars over who's religion is the true religion, we need to change this childish behavior, we need to grow up and mature spiritually, for this is Enlightenment.

I agree 100%
As long as we keep ourselves divided we will NEVER find our true strengths and our potential.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Yes, I feel that we all need to destroy our concept of god, it has never worked, it has never done any good, we need to drop this illusion and go within and find that which is beyond ourselves, that which we truly are. We need to experience that which we are, this then becomes our truth, everyone will have their own perception of that which they have experienced, you cannot organize this experience because it belongs to you only, and everyone else's experience belongs to them.

This self experience is what true religion is, it was never meant to be organized and shoved into peoples faces, this is why we had so many wars over who's religion is the true religion, we need to change this childish behavior, we need to grow up and mature spiritually, for this is Enlightenment.

I am someone who does not wish to suffer. I am someone who only wishes to be happy and to enjoy my life. My happiness and well-being is what is vital to me and this experience is who I am. I do not value a life of depression and misery. That is not who I am.

I am going to give an example here. These are two icons. One icon is that of a group of happy blissful innocent little pandas. They have little to no misery in their lives. They are little innocent children who do not have to worry about any misery in their lives. This is the icon that represents me. This icon is spiritually profound to me since it gives my life such profound spiritual experience and is the only icon that makes my life worth living.

But we then have another icon. This icon is an abomination to me. I would choose to smash it. It is the icon of someone who continues and perseveres through a life of much misery and unhappiness. In the past, I lived the life of the former icon and I loved myself and my life for that. But now, my life has changed and I am now living the life of the icon I hate.

I am now suffering from much depression and misery in my life. I now detest both myself and this new life I am living since it is the icon I utterly detest and do not wish to be. I need the former icon back into my life somehow and if I cannot get that icon back, then I will give up completely on life since my life is no longer worth living. I put an end to anything that is an abomination in my life and since this new icon is a complete abomination to me, then I would be more than glad to sacrifice myself if it means putting an end to that loathsome icon.

 

[Tabu]

I am someone who does not wish to suffer. I am someone who only wishes to be happy and to enjoy my life. My happiness and well-being is what is vital to me and this experience is who I am. I do not value a life of depression and misery. That is not who I am.

I am going to give an example here. These are two icons. One icon is that of a group of happy blissful innocent little pandas. They have little to no misery in their lives. They are little innocent children who do not have to worry about any misery in their lives. This is the icon that represents me. This icon is spiritually profound to me since it gives my life such profound spiritual experience and is the only icon that makes my life worth living.

But we then have another icon. This icon is an abomination to me. I would choose to smash it. It is the icon of someone who continues and perseveres through a life of much misery and unhappiness. In the past, I lived the life of the former icon and I loved myself and my life for that. But now, my life has changed and I am now living the life of the icon I hate.

I am now suffering from much depression and misery in my life. I now detest both myself and this new life I am living since it is the icon I utterly detest and do not wish to be. I need the former icon back into my life somehow and if I cannot get that icon back, then I will give up completely on life since my life is no longer worth living. I put an end to anything that is an abomination in my life and since this new icon is a complete abomination to me, then I would be more than glad to sacrifice myself if it means putting an end to that loathsome icon.

Most of the misery in our lives is because we associate ourselves and confine ourselves within a limited , perishable identity , once this identity is lost we believe that our lives are over because we are unable to live with or compromise with the new identity.
The identities which we associate ourselves could be a certain body image , a certain designation ,a certain relationship ,a certain possession.., and once one of these identities to which we are deeply attached is lost or damaged we are equally damaged and lost .
The way out is to make an association and attachment with an imperishable identity , our souls , the conscious which runs this body , which is the actual Me , and everything else is not Me but mine , and each of these possessions which are mine have a fixed and limited time with Me, so when they are no longer with Me I do not cease to be the beautiful , powerful , blissful ,soul which I am.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am someone who does not wish to suffer. I am someone who only wishes to be happy and to enjoy my life. My happiness and well-being is what is vital to me and this experience is who I am. I do not value a life of depression and misery. That is not who I am.

I am going to give an example here. These are two icons. One icon is that of a group of happy blissful innocent little pandas. They have little to no misery in their lives. They are little innocent children who do not have to worry about any misery in their lives. This is the icon that represents me. This icon is spiritually profound to me since it gives my life such profound spiritual experience and is the only icon that makes my life worth living.

But we then have another icon. This icon is an abomination to me. I would choose to smash it. It is the icon of someone who continues and perseveres through a life of much misery and unhappiness. In the past, I lived the life of the former icon and I loved myself and my life for that. But now, my life has changed and I am now living the life of the icon I hate.

I am now suffering from much depression and misery in my life. I now detest both myself and this new life I am living since it is the icon I utterly detest and do not wish to be. I need the former icon back into my life somehow and if I cannot get that icon back, then I will give up completely on life since my life is no longer worth living. I put an end to anything that is an abomination in my life and since this new icon is a complete abomination to me, then I would be more than glad to sacrifice myself if it means putting an end to that loathsome icon.

Have you discovered the reasoning behind why you are suffering, miserable, and in hell?

 

[Gyrannon]

@MattMVS7
Well I couldn't do that. Just because life is becoming harder & harder for me, I will not end it because something changed that I don't want.
I saved a dog when I was 4 from a ******* of a pet owner. That dog was my best friend & I loved him dearly. He died on my 16th birthday and that changed me forever as I was struck with so much grief that I pretty became something else.
I have tried to be the man that women want - someone who seriously loves them, will not cheat on them, will not abuse them in any way, hell I'm the type of person that doesn't understand the point of Jealousy. If they were sad, I would do my best to cheer them up, if they felt alone, I'd assure them they are not & remind them of their friends & family. I didn't complain if they wanted to do something without me, I didn't try to force my opinions or beliefs on them, hell I would just because I wanted to would give them massages without expecting a return. Believe it or not, that wasn't enough for them. I think I've gone through 15 relationships in my life, and only one of them (my current) is the longest. And honestly I was afraid to even have a relationship with my current cause I was so terrified of having my heart broken again - took a couple months to convince to try with her.

We have gone through hell. Friends we thought were friends were merely using us. We've even tried helping another friend escape a truly abusive relationship with a psychopath, but no matter how hard we tried, she kept going back an we felt helpless.
My family hates itself, uncles & aunts are so dug in on their past grudges that their children feel the aftershock. I've lost a friend who had been married & had a kid on the way. Suicide. Why? He lost his 10 year job an overdosed on cocaine in attempt to escape the depression - his death shook us all, even the guy who provided the drug was seriously griefed by his death (he had to be the one to tell his wife that her husband is dead because of him).

Regardless of the **** that has plagued my life & that of my friends & family, we still live on & try to make our lives better than what it was or has become.

Your life could always be a lot worse. Try being born like this guy:

 

[Lighthouse]

Fine, then simply consider:

My child is killed at school in a mass shooting and my sorrow over it is because I did what? In some way I was instrumental in the shooting? All the parents of all the victims were?​

It makes no difference. You said "God didn't create sorrow, sorrow is the result of our own misdeeds." Implying that if I am sorrowful it's because of something I did.


And, if you don't read the Bible nor is your perception of God Biblical, just what god or kind of god do you acknowledge?


.

I suppose that if someone knows that this is capable of happening in this world, the rational explanation would be to not have children, homeschool children, or if someone does have children to be content and fearless as they know that there are virtually an infinite number of outcomes that can potentially happen to someone's child. If someone makes the conscious choice to send their child into the hands of a virtually limitless number of potential outcomes out of their control. So yes, rationally speaking you would have sent your child into potential danger and are sorrowful for the conscious choice you made. While rare, knowing it "could" still happen.

What you did was send your child into potential danger. You were instrumental by sending your child into potential danger. Every parent made the conscious choice to send their child into potential danger. Every parent agreed to bringing a child into this world before conception.

 

[Skwim]

I suppose that if someone knows that this is capable of happening in this world, the rational explanation would be to not have children, homeschool children, or if someone does have children to be content and fearless as they know that there are virtually an infinite number of outcomes that can potentially happen to someone's child. If someone makes the conscious choice to send their child into the hands of a virtually limitless number of potential outcomes out of their control. So yes, rationally speaking you would have sent your child into potential danger and are sorrowful for the conscious choice you made. While rare, knowing it "could" still happen.

What you did was send your child into potential danger. You were instrumental by sending your child into potential danger. Every parent made the conscious choice to send their child into potential danger. Every parent agreed to bringing a child into this world before conception.

So we bring sorrow upon ourselves by merely being. No doubt the fault of our parents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great-great grandparents, whose . . . . . . .*yawn* . . . . . .of Homo habilis. Rationally speaking, that is.


.

 

[psychoslice]

I am someone who does not wish to suffer. I am someone who only wishes to be happy and to enjoy my life. My happiness and well-being is what is vital to me and this experience is who I am. I do not value a life of depression and misery. That is not who I am.

I am going to give an example here. These are two icons. One icon is that of a group of happy blissful innocent little pandas. They have little to no misery in their lives. They are little innocent children who do not have to worry about any misery in their lives. This is the icon that represents me. This icon is spiritually profound to me since it gives my life such profound spiritual experience and is the only icon that makes my life worth living.

But we then have another icon. This icon is an abomination to me. I would choose to smash it. It is the icon of someone who continues and perseveres through a life of much misery and unhappiness. In the past, I lived the life of the former icon and I loved myself and my life for that. But now, my life has changed and I am now living the life of the icon I hate.

I am now suffering from much depression and misery in my life. I now detest both myself and this new life I am living since it is the icon I utterly detest and do not wish to be. I need the former icon back into my life somehow and if I cannot get that icon back, then I will give up completely on life since my life is no longer worth living. I put an end to anything that is an abomination in my life and since this new icon is a complete abomination to me, then I would be more than glad to sacrifice myself if it means putting an end to that loathsome icon.

I feel that we need to except whatever life dishes out, I have been through a lot in my life, raped as a young man, shot by a stranger, I had a knife to my throat, I have schizophrenia, and not long ago cancer. All that has happened to me has brought me to who and where I am today, and I am more happier than ever.

To worry about the past that no longer exists, and the future that is never there, is to wast our life, we can only be here and now, if you can learn to do that, then your life will be a bliss.

 

[Lighthouse]

So we bring sorrow upon ourselves by merely being. No doubt the fault of our parents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great-great grandparents, whose . . . . . . .*yawn* . . . . . .of Homo habilis. Rationally speaking, that is.


.

That is correct and rationally speaking, for merely being "here in this world."
I suppose there could be only 3 to blame: God if exists, your line of genealogy(particularly your own parents) or if you somehow always existed and chose to be here on Earth.

But as Pyschoslice just mentioned, the past and future don't exist so why blame? Why not just learn to be content with the present and with whatever comes someone's way and shake and discover the root cause for ones own hell in the present?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Popsicle everyone!

 

[InChrist]

I will reiterate my point one last time in this topic. It is a much more brief topic. Therefore, it is bound to have more replies rather than people ignoring it. So this is my last topic in which this point will be made. I hear people say that suffering is inflicted upon us for our own personal growth and development.

But imagine if I went up to someone innocent, inflicted unimaginable mental pain and suffering upon him/her, and then said to him/her:

"I know, it's hard. But life was never meant to be easy. You mere meant to suffer. Life is a hard school for our learning, growing, and developing."

Imagine if I said that while this person was going insane, screaming, suicidal, and begging to be put out of his/her misery.

That loathsome, cruel, careless abomination that would be me could easily represent who God is as well. So as you can clearly see here, God is not the loving caring God many people make Him out to be.

That is, if there really is a God. There might not even be a God, afterlife, or anything paranormal. The natural world might really be all there is. I just find myself enraged with people who somehow think that this would be a loving and caring God.

If this God actually existed, I would choose to destroy Him off the face of this universe once and for all.

According to the scriptures, God does not inflict suffering on the innocent. Nor was suffering His intent for the human race. Humans are free agents who choose to do things their way apart from God's goodness and wisdom. The result being that we inflict suffering upon others and ourselves.

 

[Gyrannon]

Popsicle everyone!

LOL unexpected method of lighting things up.

But anyways... (Back on topic)
One other bit that someone else said that there are people who have no hardships. Personally, I seriously doubt that.
Everything & anything can be considered a hardship, even if it doesn't look like it to you, doesn't mean it isn't for them.

Take Trump for instance - an just a note, I'm personally not fond of the guy. I personally see the guy as more of idiot than Bush, but anyways.
Even he has hardships, I won't deny that. Yeah, he's a multi-billionaire, he owns several large companies, hell he might even become President of the US, but that doesn't mean he hasn't had any hardships. He's gone through 4 or 5 bankruptcies, many company owners would give up after just one bankruptcy, but not him, he kept trying to rebuild & regain that bliss. He's gone through a couple divorces, still didn't stop him from trying to find someone better.
He's well aware of the fact that a lot of people think he's a chump, but seriously you can't win EVERYONE over, gotta take what you can & keep going.

You say your life is no longer worth living, personally thats horse ****. You ALWAYS have something to live for, you ALWAYS can pick yourself back up, you're never truly alone, and the only real thing that is stopping you from reacquiring that bliss in your life is honestly you.
I'm not gonna say "Pray to god", I'm gonna say Hold off this God thing an start focusing on you. He can wait, your life can't.

Even if I don't agree with how you think or how you perceive things, still I'd rather you try to reacquire that meaning and find the bliss that eludes you.