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How Intellectual Dishonesty can Help Destroy America -- or Any Nation

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
For about 240 years, America has been more or less held together by economics. You could write a history of American unity solely in economic terms, without once mentioning any other thing uniting Americans, such as the "pursuit of happiness" and other noble values, and your history would be far more accurate than any other history of American unity that you could possibly write, but which cut out all reference to economics.

Economics has never been an entire success at holding America together, but it has never been an entire failure either.

To illustrate, American unity was predominantly forged at first in a nearly rapacious, head-long rush to steal land and resources from Native Americans that lasted up until the late 1800s, and that both produced the myth anyone can succeed in America through sheer pluck and hard work, and that also quite arguably liberalized American republicanism into a species of representative democracy -- especially at the state and local levels. In short, not only American unity, but even American democracy has crucially depended on economics.

If and when America becomes a failed state, its failure will be due to economics. Mostly, that is.

A few other factors are destined to play supporting roles in that tale. Of those factors, one -- the rise of intellectual dishonesty -- is probably the "wallflower at the party factor" -- the factor whose importance will be most overlooked. Few people think of intellectual dishonesty when they think of the collapse of nations or civilizations, but it is arguable that it does play a role, albeit a modestly important one.

One way to readily see that importance is to first take a look at the role that beliefs about the nature of reality -- as distinct from values -- play in determining our actions. Chiefly, they serve as guides or maps to reality. They are useful in helping us get from where we are to where we want to go, although they do not tell us what destination we should seek. That is left to our values.

Suppose I am anti-abortion and I also believe that teenagers getting pregnant might have something to do with the demand for abortions in my community. It is easy to see how my values might be informed by my beliefs to lead me to explore ways of reducing teenage pregnancies.

Now suppose you are pro-choice, but even though you are pro-choice, you don't want there to be any more abortions than there must be for any reason. You and I thus have somewhat similar values, but it's possible we could have even identical beliefs.

For instance, maybe we both think teenagers getting pregnant contributes to the demand for abortions, and -- after exploring ways to reduce that demand -- we both come to believe that placing large, cardboard cut-outs of @SalixIncendium dressed in his appalling favorite go-to-temple outfit (red socks, paisley knee-britches, blindingly yellow shirt, and black cravat) in every teen's bedroom will reduce teen pregnancies by making the kids far too nauseous to desire sex. It's easy to see how we would now be poised to agree upon a course of action, even despite slightly different values.

Even if we have very different values, we might still be able to agree up the same course of action if we have the same take on reality. You might be pro-Civil Rights, I might be opposed to Civil Rights, but if we both thought giving people a few more rights would reduce the chances of a bloody revolution, we might agree on doing so.

But suppose we have different beliefs though we have the very same values. That can at times lead to an impasse about what to do. You and I are both anti-abortion, but you think sex ed will reduce teen pregnancy and thus the demand for abortion, while I just don't see what sex ed has to do with it, thus we vote opposite ways on a bill to fund teaching it.

So, I think shared beliefs about reality have some power to unite people in a common belief about what needs to be done. If that's true, then intellectual dishonesty can be seen as something which kicks the legs out from under the best ways of reaching shared beliefs.

Humans are in so many ways disposed to being irrational, it is easy to forget they can at times be quite rational, that not every decision they make is actually doomed to being made irrationally. Moreover, it is scientifically demonstrable that rationality is both separate from intelligence, and capable of being taught. But for it to be used to arrive at anything that might be called "truth", rather than merely used as a clever means of rationalizing falsehoods. people also need training and encouragement in such things intellectual discipline and intellectual honesty.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So, I think shared beliefs about reality have some power to unite people in a common belief about what needs to be done. If that's true, then intellectual dishonesty can be seen as something which kicks the legs out from under the best ways of reaching shared beliefs.

I was following your argument up until this paragraph. IMO, when you brought "intellectual dishonesty" into the argument you made some sort of logical leap that I don't understand. Can you connect the dots?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I was following your argument up until this paragraph. IMO, when you brought "intellectual dishonesty" into the argument you made some sort of logical leap that I don't understand. Can you connect the dots?
You believe Y, I believe X, but if we can look at the facts we can agree on Z which is a unified belief we share by virtue of holding belief X or Y. If seeing Z as a compromise or a way that could also benefit Y, I could be intellectually dishonest and either deny or withhold facts that would lead us to agree on Z. That is I would intentional act in a deceptive matter to either better my position or cause harm to yours (even if doing so also harmed my position).
 

james blunt

Well-Known Member
Humans are in so many ways disposed to being irrational, it is easy to forget they can at times be quite rational, that not every decision they make is actually doomed to being made irrationally. Moreover, it is scientifically demonstrable that rationality is both separate from intelligence, and capable of being taught. But for it to be used to arrive at anything that might be called "truth", rather than merely used as a clever means of rationalizing falsehoods. people also need training and encouragement in such things intellectual discipline and intellectual honesty.
That is correct sir, people are taught to be irrational from an early age , putting empathy into wealth and materialistic positions, forgetting they are human. It is illogical and irrational to look at a diamond or gold in a sense of it has value other than scientific use such as gold is a good conductor.
I have stated before an apple is worth more than gold and it is irrational to think it is not. Money has no real purpose in my life but I need money in this society because that is what we have created as an irrational society of human beings. Do we see monkeys in a forest arguing over such things as money and wealth?
The monkey is more rational than us, so bare that in mind the next time any of you think money is great.


added-

The chemical element of atomic number seventy nine, a persons dreams of success, shiny metal that rules the world with a devil inside that causes wars, an evil that history has created.



Then there is the humble apple, filled with life that gives life, growing from Eden, a place we should of stayed, to venture outside was a mistake, we did not let the devil into bliss, we ventured outside to find the devil.

We had it all, yet we wanted more, we should of never opened the door,

We had the Devil locked out, but we let him inside by turning inside out,

now we have gold we can't eat, it is relatively cheap, belongs on a scrap heap, you can keep ,

I will just eat my apple...........
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
For about 240 years, America has been more or less held together by economics. You could write a history of American unity solely in economic terms, without once mentioning any other thing uniting Americans, such as the "pursuit of happiness" and other noble values, and your history would be far more accurate than any other history of American unity that you could possibly write, but which cut out all reference to economics.

Economics has never been an entire success at holding America together, but it has never been an entire failure either.

To illustrate, American unity was predominantly forged at first in a nearly rapacious, head-long rush to steal land and resources from Native Americans that lasted up until the late 1800s, and that both produced the myth anyone can succeed in America through sheer pluck and hard work, and that also quite arguably liberalized American republicanism into a species of representative democracy -- especially at the state and local levels. In short, not only American unity, but even American democracy has crucially depended on economics.

If and when America becomes a failed state, its failure will be due to economics. Mostly, that is.

A few other factors are destined to play supporting roles in that tale. Of those factors, one -- the rise of intellectual dishonesty -- is probably the "wallflower at the party factor" -- the factor whose importance will be most overlooked. Few people think of intellectual dishonesty when they think of the collapse of nations or civilizations, but it is arguable that it does play a role, albeit a modestly important one.

One way to readily see that importance is to first take a look at the role that beliefs about the nature of reality -- as distinct from values -- play in determining our actions. Chiefly, they serve as guides or maps to reality. They are useful in helping us get from where we are to where we want to go, although they do not tell us what destination we should seek. That is left to our values.

Suppose I am anti-abortion and I also believe that teenagers getting pregnant might have something to do with the demand for abortions in my community. It is easy to see how my values might be informed by my beliefs to lead me to explore ways of reducing teenage pregnancies.

Now suppose you are pro-choice, but even though you are pro-choice, you don't want there to be any more abortions than there must be for any reason. You and I thus have somewhat similar values, but it's possible we could have even identical beliefs.

For instance, maybe we both think teenagers getting pregnant contributes to the demand for abortions, and -- after exploring ways to reduce that demand -- we both come to believe that placing large, cardboard cut-outs of @SalixIncendium dressed in his appalling favorite go-to-temple outfit (red socks, paisley knee-britches, blindingly yellow shirt, and black cravat) in every teen's bedroom will reduce teen pregnancies by making the kids far too nauseous to desire sex. It's easy to see how we would now be poised to agree upon a course of action, even despite slightly different values.

Even if we have very different values, we might still be able to agree up the same course of action if we have the same take on reality. You might be pro-Civil Rights, I might be opposed to Civil Rights, but if we both thought giving people a few more rights would reduce the chances of a bloody revolution, we might agree on doing so.

But suppose we have different beliefs though we have the very same values. That can at times lead to an impasse about what to do. You and I are both anti-abortion, but you think sex ed will reduce teen pregnancy and thus the demand for abortion, while I just don't see what sex ed has to do with it, thus we vote opposite ways on a bill to fund teaching it.

So, I think shared beliefs about reality have some power to unite people in a common belief about what needs to be done. If that's true, then intellectual dishonesty can be seen as something which kicks the legs out from under the best ways of reaching shared beliefs.

Humans are in so many ways disposed to being irrational, it is easy to forget they can at times be quite rational, that not every decision they make is actually doomed to being made irrationally. Moreover, it is scientifically demonstrable that rationality is both separate from intelligence, and capable of being taught. But for it to be used to arrive at anything that might be called "truth", rather than merely used as a clever means of rationalizing falsehoods. people also need training and encouragement in such things intellectual discipline and intellectual honesty.

I think intellectual dishonesty can be checked rather easily. One can see two people in a debate over an issue, and it can be assumed that both sides would be prepared, have their sources lined up, and make whatever arguments they want to make which might seem rational at face value.

What seems lacking is emotional honesty. Someone could make a pro-capitalist argument and try to come across all intellectual, rational, and logical - making it appear that all one wants is an efficient economic system beneficial to the people of America. But some might suspect an ulterior motive and attribute their position to more emotional considerations, such as greed. But the pro-capitalist advocate would dare not admit to such a thing and might even argue that their personal feelings are irrelevant.

Likewise, if someone takes a pro-socialist position, they might take an approach which appears rational and intellectual on the surface, yet their detractors might accuse them of having more of an emotional motivation, such as class envy, hatred of other people's success, a secret desire to throw people into gulags, etc. I've seen the same recurring pattern in a lot of discussions of this nature.

The same thing might be discerned with other issues, such as immigration. Someone might argue that they're in favor of enforcing the law and that they're only against illegal immigration, yet others might suspect something more emotional and say "BS! You just hate Mexicans!" People might suspect that their true motives are even worse than what their surface-level arguments would reveal even if they appear rational and satisfactory on an intellectual level.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If and when America becomes a failed state, its failure will be due to economics. Mostly, that is. A few other factors are destined to play supporting roles in that tale. Of those factors, one -- the rise of intellectual dishonesty -- is probably the "wallflower at the party factor" -- the factor whose importance will be most overlooked. Few people think of intellectual dishonesty when they think of the collapse of nations or civilizations, but it is arguable that it does play a role, albeit a modestly important one.

Interesting idea.

The dishonesty in America is rampant now, which is undoubtedly a sign of societal distress and ongoing cultural decay in America.

Don't forget intellectual collapse, which is a necessary precursor to all of this lying being so effective. Far too large a fraction of the American people don't seem to be able to think critically, which is their only immunity from being lied to successfully.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think intellectual dishonesty can be checked rather easily. One can see two people in a debate over an issue, and it can be assumed that both sides would be prepared, have their sources lined up, and make whatever arguments they want to make which might seem rational at face value.

What seems lacking is emotional honesty. Someone could make a pro-capitalist argument and try to come across all intellectual, rational, and logical - making it appear that all one wants is an efficient economic system beneficial to the people of America. But some might suspect an ulterior motive and attribute their position to more emotional considerations, such as greed. But the pro-capitalist advocate would dare not admit to such a thing and might even argue that their personal feelings are irrelevant.

Likewise, if someone takes a pro-socialist position, they might take an approach which appears rational and intellectual on the surface, yet their detractors might accuse them of having more of an emotional motivation, such as class envy, hatred of other people's success, a secret desire to throw people into gulags, etc. I've seen the same recurring pattern in a lot of discussions of this nature.

The same thing might be discerned with other issues, such as immigration. Someone might argue that they're in favor of enforcing the law and that they're only against illegal immigration, yet others might suspect something more emotional and say "BS! You just hate Mexicans!" People might suspect that their true motives are even worse than what their surface-level arguments would reveal even if they appear rational and satisfactory on an intellectual level.
I think that is more on key.

Look at what's transpiring with issues today. The arguments are pretty much all emotionally based.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But some might suspect an ulterior motive and attribute their position to more emotional considerations, such as greed

yet their detractors might accuse them of having more of an emotional motivation, such as class envy, hatred of other people's success, a secret desire to throw people into gulags, etc.

People might suspect that their true motives are even worse than what their surface-level arguments would reveal even if they appear rational and satisfactory on an intellectual level.
These are all examples of intellectual dishonesty as well. By inventing nefarious motives for your opposition you shield yourself from having to engage their position.
 
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