How is faith a virtuous and reasonable attribute?

[Bunyip]

I can see when I'm up against someone attached to a certain worldview. Go for it dude. Believe there is nothing EVEN CLOSE to evidence (as you said) to disturb your worldview.

George, you have missed the point. YOUR QUOTE from Radin states that ALL THEY HAVE IS AN OUTCOME UNLIKELY TO BE COINCIDENCE. That's it george. You misread the artilce, it is not evidence of psi powers, it does not prove telepathy ALL IT SHOWS IS AN INTERESTING STATISTICAL ANOMALY. You imagined that research to be evidence of something that it is NOT evidence of - as your own extract from that research specifically states.

Again, no offence George - but your misreading Radin's research is hardly indicative of bias on my part - a very unkind and unecessary inference indeed. If there were evidence of psi powers, that would not disturb my worldview at all George, you misjudge me. Evidence for psi powers would be awesome, I would happily embrace it. You are accusing me of bias for doubting evidence that you have presented - which as it turns out does not even claim to be the evidence you imagined.

 

[George-ananda]

George, you have missed the point. YOUR QUOTE from Radin states that ALL THEY HAVE IS AN OUTCOME UNLIKELY TO BE COINCIDENCE. That's it george. You misread the artilce, it is not evidence of psi powers, it does not prove telepathy ALL IT SHOWS IS AN INTERESTING STATISTICAL ANOMALY. You imagined that research to be evidence of something that it is NOT evidence of - as your own extract from that research specifically states.

Did not my step 1, step 2 discussion previously show I understand the above?? Please re-read.

 

[AllanV]

When younger a friend and I were fooling around and the comment was made if we believed something deeply and continuously enough it could happen. My comment was that I could push his face with an invisible finger.
I concentrated and his top lip moved much further than he could have done it himself.
We usually need the natural senses as a clue so it is a matter of shutting this off by breaking down usual reservations and bonding to some degree. Each person has to feel completely safe with the other and believe what the other is saying. Verbal confirmation is necessary.

People make incursions into each others minds to produce feelings but it is not seen as such. Body language usually holds the most attention. Getting into the mind of some one is hijacking their brain chemistry and electrical impulses to produce the desired feeling but this is mostly deflected and turned into a reactive feeling instead.
There usually is a degree of reservation with strangers and we don't want to let our guard down but comedians can do this and probably politicians. Most people mask their true intentions.
This takes the comment he made me laugh or he made me cry to a new level.
Depending on how a person is talking or even appearing there is a response in certain feelings. This can be used to good effect to manipulate and get the desired response.

 

[Augustus]

Can you explain why leaping off a cliff is a bad thing? Maybe if you did it, magical pixies would swoop in and save you! What negative effects are you talking about anyhow?

As I have said repeatedly, it obviously matters if you are objectively wrong in some things as being wrong causes harm.

The point that it is important to be as objectively correct as possible in all areas of life is an ideological view, and, in my opinion, is actually pretty irrational.

Do you tell your partner that you love her/him or tell them about endorphins and dopamine levels in your brain that is likely the response to some evolution based process?

We have sayings 'ignorance is bliss' and 'what you don't know doesn't hurt you', which ultimately relate to advantages of being objectively wrong.

Children believe in Santa which gives them happiness, even though it it objectively wrong. Is this a bad thing?

Even if nothing else changed and religion went away tomorrow, I'd say the world was better off. Certainly it wouldn't be perfect, but perfection is an unattainable goal. The removal of irrational religious thought is an improvement. Other improvements can certainly be made.

What society would be like without religion is the very definition of unknowable. Better or worse no one knows, no one can make an accurate prediction, totally impossible to know anything.

In such a situation, the pertinent question is what is the worst that can happen?

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

This is so obviously wrong to even the tiniest bit of critical analysis, I really don't know how it gets repeated so often. The entire 20th and 21st centuries are full of 'good' people doing evil things for non-religious reasons. Throughout history 'good' people have killed far more people than 'evil' people, and religion has been one cause, but far from the most murderous.

There's no such thing as a utopia, sorry.

Utopian ideologies, not utopia, big difference. Ideologies that drive society towards an idealised future state that sees history as a process to be overcome and in which some 'final state' can be reached.

ISIS is utopian, implement Sharia law in the world and everything will be perfect. Communism was utopian, Naziism was utopian. Liberal interventionism, I would argue is also utopian (and draws from the utopian ideology of 'progress' prevalent in the non-religious West).

You have the religious out trying, and succeeding, to kill those who criticize their beliefs and practices and demanding that they be given free reign to do anything they want to do in the name of their religion. We wouldn't accept that for anything else.

We accept America doing whatever it wants in the name of national security and American exceptionalism. The secular, progressive, moderate West still seems to kill lots of brown people while making excuses how they were really being benevolent by killing them because the West was just helping them really. Brown people who kill others are demonised while Western intellectuals create theories to show how the West is morally superior in its murder and the world really should thank them for it. A former VP, on TV, justified torture, which included anal rape and serious sexual assault, and had a fair deal of support. America has been renditioning people who criticise America and torturing them, many European countries were complicit in this also.

People accept killing others pretty easily.

No, what you are is an accommodationist. You want everyone to get along and nobody to criticize anyone else but that's not how it works. Saying "this is the way it's always been so this is how it should always be" is ridiculous. It's as insane as saying "Modern medicine? But we've always used bloodletting to release the evil spirits!"

I have no problem with people criticising anyone's beliefs, I frequently criticise aspects of religion as it causes problems and violence where I live. I just think many criticisms of religion are stereotyped and simplistic and the deification of 'science' as just about the only valid source of knowledge and the common belief that 'science' tells us more than it actually does is both misguided and ultimately dangerous. I think we can learn a lot from history and human experience and that it can be both rational and beneficial to accept certain beliefs/ideas even though they may not be verifiable objectively. This does not mean every source of knowledge is equally valid of course, I just reject an excessive focus on positivism.

 

[Bunyip]

Did not my step 1, step 2 discussion previously show I understand the above?? Please re-read.

Well no George, you seem to think that Rqdin and the Ganzfield experiments got past 1. - an i nteresting staistical anomaly. You appeared to have imagined that the Ganzfieod experiments had proven telepathy - however they have only reached stage 1. Not stage 3. Stage 1. is merely an unknown - not evidence of anything. Certainly not what you imagined. Stage 1. Presents no problem for skeptics, nor does it posit anything to be biased against.

That there may be something happening in the Ganzfield experiments that is currently unexplainable I can happily accept. It is not evidence for anything yet. Just something that should be looked into.

Step 1 is not evidence - it is where the science begins.

 

[McBell]

I can see when I'm up against someone attached to a certain worldview. Go for it dude. Believe there is nothing EVEN CLOSE to evidence (as you said) to disturb your worldview.

How is telling the bold faced lie that it has been proven any different?
Your hypocrisy is showing.

 

[AllanV]

Faith is a virtue because it has evidence and if active refines purifies and brings change.

I was listening to a science report on the radio and I understood how many are caught up in lofty endeavors even though they are mortal and may never see the end of their work.
It is very difficult to follow another person work.

Some points came to my attention. There was an experiment where a photon of light was made to appear remotely when the conditions were set up for it to do so. This was done in the 1990's I think.

The age of the universe is said to be calculated from the time it takes light to travel and that observing stars etc reveals their past.
If the universe was created quickly then the photons could have had instant appearance and only now does light have speed. Observation would not be showing a great age at all.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

To skeptics faith is nothing more than the ability to suspend disbelief when common sense and reason would clearly support disbelief. I'm sorry, but to me faith is a measure of how purposely gullible a person can be. Am I wrong? Is there any rational argument for faith being a virtuous and reasonable attribute?

Yes. What you're referring to is blind (unreasoned) faith. But faith is a necessary partner with reason. I use the analogy of a ship where the helmsman at the controls is reason, while the engine is the motivation. To paraphrase Einstein, without reason, the ship follows no course, and without motivation, the ship is dead in the water. Motivation (faith) is as necessary as the reason to guide it is.

 

[wizanda]

Is there any rational argument for faith being a virtuous and reasonable attribute?

Faith is a feeling from the heart, not a religious belief.
The problem comes because Paul defines 'The Faith', as a belief in Christ's death and resurrection.

So though there is a misconception about the word faith, especially by Americans, as it has been ascribed as a religious belief i.e. "what faith (religion) are you?"

The word faith can also have its original meaning, like the words faithful and trustworthy meaning more or less the same thing.

So a mountain climber has great faith in their own abilities, and if they are climbing with another climber, they need to have faith in that other persons skills, as their life depends on it.

When Yeshua spoke about faith in the bible, he was meaning this real sort; as with enough faith, you can literally move a mountain, as a village showed moving a mountain bucket by bucket, which shows great trust/faith in that they would accomplish their goals.

So in that, i often find atheists have far more faith than religious peoples, who have a belief in a book; yet not much real faith, that they can trust in their own strength of conviction.

So a faithful person is a good thing; someone who has faith in their own abilities, also then applies that to things they focus on.

 

[AllanV]

Faith is a feeling from the heart, not a religious belief.
The problem comes because Paul defines 'The Faith', as a belief in Christ's death and resurrection.

So though there is a misconception about the word faith, especially by Americans, as it has been ascribed as a religious belief i.e. "what faith (religion) are you?"

The word faith can also have its original meaning, like the words faithful and trustworthy meaning more or less the same thing.

So a mountain climber has great faith in their own abilities, and if they are climbing with another climber, they need to have faith in that other persons skills, as their life depends on it.

When Yeshua spoke about faith in the bible, he was meaning this real sort; as with enough faith, you can literally move a mountain, as a village showed moving a mountain bucket by bucket, which shows great trust/faith in that they would accomplish their goals.

So in that, i often find atheists have far more faith than religious peoples, who have a belief in a book; yet not much real faith, that they can trust in their own strength of conviction.

So a faithful person is a good thing; someone who has faith in their own abilities, also then applies that to things they focus on.

Faith is less of a feeling and more of a spiritual state.
Faith is in the same energy that makes everything appear. Therefore having Faith is being in harmony with the Creator and the same power of manifestation.

The word or spokesman is with God and by the Word every thing is made.

With Faith words will actively manifest what is being asked for.

Faith in own self or Faith in the energizing power of the creator God?
Find the nature of Jesus and God will energize the Love in it.

 

[JustWondering]

And I am confident that God exists.

You have made it clear that you believe in a god but why? If you have no rational reasons for believing in your specific god than to non-believers your belief/faith is nothing more than unsubstantiated, wishful thinking.

What would my beliefs have been had I been born in utterly different circumstances? Do you have a what-if machine? It's an impossible question to answer. No one denies that one's circumstances are important in the shaping of cultural and religious beliefs. But it says nothing of the definite historical claims of the Gospels in which I believe. Abandon my beliefs because I could have been a Muslim in another universe? What trite reasoning.

It is not really an impossible question to answer. If you were born into a culture that followed a different religion and were raised to follow that religion, you would be a follower of that religion. Religion is something that is taught, handed down from one generation to the next. Most people are indoctrinated before they are mature enough to think for themselves and by that point their world view is tainted by the supernatural.

 

[wizanda]

Faith in own self or Faith in the energizing power of the creator God?
Find the nature of Jesus and the God will energize the Love in it.

As said earlier, if you don't have faith of your own; then it is like a seed that doesn't have roots, thus when the sun comes up it shrivels.

Using someone's faith, is like using a stick as a support; it makes the plant as strong as its stick, thus when the winds come it breaks, as it never learned to have its own strength.

Though clearly you still grow towards the light, as that is the sustainer; growing toward other things, is the reason there are so many distorted plants.

 

[AllanV]

As said earlier, if you don't have faith of your own; then it is like a seed that doesn't have roots, thus when the sun comes up it shrivels.

Using someone's faith, is like using a stick as a support; it makes the plant as strong as its stick, thus when the winds come it breaks, as it never learned to have its own strength.

Though clearly you still grow towards the light, as that is the sustainer; growing toward other things, is the reason there are so many distorted plants.

When you have faith in another climbers ability are you not having faith in your own ability to choose the right person. Therefore we have faith in our judgment or is it confidence.

Either way to have entry into God's kingdom every aspect of the human rebellious nature must be transformed to the gentle nature of Jesus and His love will be energized by God.
The old nature is completely covered.
The state of belief must be achieved where the heart and spirit is able to be broken deeply.
Every last aspect that is seen to be stopping entry must be thrust away.
Faith must be there already because the mind is going into unknown territory and there is no attachment to the self.
And God gives the Faith.

 

[JustWondering]

1. No i was not referring Numbers 5 nor the use of the Urim and Thummim, by context these things were inherently of supernatural intervention. And besides metphoric speech there is much that one can read about science.
Job 26:7 - "suspending the earth upon nothing"
Isaiah 40:22 - "the circle (or "sphere.") of the earth"
Ecc 1:7 - the water cycle
De 23:13; Nu 19:11-22 - health safety regulations regarding the treatment of human waste and dead bodies
Ge 17:12; Le 12:2,3 - circumcision was to wait till the vit K was as adequate levels and on the very day when prothrombin (another clotting agent) would be at its highest ever.
Prov 14:20; 17:22 - a link is drawn between mental health and physical health
Ps 102:25,26 - alludement to entropy that if not kept in check would result in an end of our material universe

2. I had in mind facets of Gods word such as that found in the book of Proverbs - as its very purpose is internally stated to be providing practical wisdom

3. The book of Daniel can be proven to written prior to the fulfillment of prophesy. I am not going to take the time to prove it in this thread.

Your arguments and "evidence" would only be convincing to current members of the choir. If a god or god like creator exists I have seen no evidence to convince me that anyone really knows anything more about it than I do. So basically, you believe because you WANT to.

 

[AllanV]

how-is-faith-a-virtuous-and-reasonable-attribute,
because it will take an individual all the way to immortality.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Instead of a body of flesh, a biological form with all the lusts in that form, the nature is changed completely.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[JustWondering]

I think so, if faith entails ideals that better humanity, and part of that faith is affirming those ideals. Would you deny people of faith like Martin Luther King Jr have done great things for human betterment? That is a useful and life-changing kind of faith.

There are also examples were faith has been used for harmful purposes, so do you deny people of faith like Osama Bin Laden used people's faith for evil, violent purposes?

 

[JustWondering]

how-is-faith-a-virtuous-and-reasonable-attribute,
because it will take an individual all the way to immortality.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Instead of a body of flesh, a biological form with all the lusts in that form, the nature is changed completely.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

That's nice, now all you have to do is substantiate these bold, wondrous claims.

 

[JustWondering]

God is willing and able to destroy everything man made. Whether it is put into someones mind to start a nuclear war which I think it has been already or He directly shakes everything.
It doesn't take much of a brain to know why.

When it begins how far will it go. Will it be easy to turn off?

Your god doesn't exist.

 

[AllanV]

That's nice, now all you have to do is substantiate these bold, wondrous claims.

It isn't a case of going into a brain freeze, it is a matter of thinking it through (rationally)
I must admit it is difficult when the only claimed examples don't present very well.
I had a spontaneous experience and gained a lot of knowledge but the path or way I understand takes dedication, commitment and it can not be recommended at all. It is not for the fearful. I have been on the top of mountains and letting the old mind go is a bit like base jumping after your instincts are to hold on.

It involves the mind and what motivates a person and what is seen in a personality. This is a bit difficult to give up.
It is possible to do. The rewards of immortality if believed are huge and the on going experience if achieved indicate this is so.

Without the experience I would never take part in a forum such as this to explain it.

 

[JustWondering]

The rewards of immortality if believed are huge and the on going experience if achieved indicate this is so.

Unless this same belief motivates you to fly a plane into a building for example. You have yet to substantiate your claims that YOUR invisible god can and does grant immortality to the chosen. Where are all these immortal people at?