How many gentiles did Jesus convert to his religion?

[metis]

This became Christianity....but it too was doomed to repeat Israel's mistakes....as Jesus and the apostles foretold. Christendom is, I believe, the result of that foretold apostasy.

Well, you may believe Jesus was a liar but I don't, and we've covered this many times before.

By the time Jesus presented himself for baptism, beginning his role as Messiah, he targeted the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and poor shepherding....he was not sent to "fix" Judaism because the nation and its worship were beyond repair.....

Well, the Bible says something different: Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If they were "beyond repair" then why the verse above? Also, aren't you even aware of the fact that many Jews did decide to follow Jesus? Aren't you aware that Jesus didn't condemn all Jews or Judaism as a whole?

Unlike you, Jesus didn't create an anti-Semitic stereotype and then condemn the stereotype.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus had no formal education. He was considered a teacher (Rabbi) but he had attended no Rabbinical School....nor had any of his 12 apostles. The only apostle with any formal education was Paul....but he was not one of the 12.

You have zero evidence of this. Zip. Zilch. You are basically making it up out of whole cloth. It's kind of like Muslims saying that Muhammad was illiterate so that they can ascribe divine origins to the Quran. Remember that the Pharisees were setting up Torah schools. It seems a far easier explanation that Jesus, who was a brillant student, was taken under wing.

You didn't answer my question....if it isn't a prophesy, then who is David's "Lord"?

I did answer, but you misunderstood it, so i will be more clear.
The LORD (God) said to my lord (David).

Was that rule to be administered religiously, politically, or both?

Both. Torah does not divide political and religious law. There is simply the Law. God's Law. He will rule the way King David ruled.

So the physical nation of Israel, will be brought back to their physical land? That is how you see his coming?

Of course.

How was he to accomplish this? Since Jews are a minority in most nations and not well accepted in many of them, what will it take to usher in this world peace, do you think? What will Daniel 2:44 mean then?

The texts don't give the specifics, nor do we need them. Daniel 2:44 simply states that he will "divide and conquer."

We do not subscribe to "common Christian understanding" of anything since all of Christendom is corrupted in our view.

Which is exactly why Christians do not embrace you as fellow Christians.

Now I am not personally trying to convert you away from JW, either to Judaism or to mainstream Christianity or anything else. My hope for Gentiles is simply that they worship God and live lives of virtue.

The apostasy was "already at work" when Paul wrote that letter.

No offense, but it stretches the imagination to say that Christianity only stayed in tact during the time of the Apostles, defining Christianity believing Jesus is the messiah, that he rose from the dead, and participating in the rites of baptism and the Lord's Supper. Do you really think the Apostles ordained men they didn't trust to pass on their message? And so forth. Like I said, there has certainly been some change in Christianity, but its overall message has not changed.

And btw, the JW are also not the Jewish sect of the Apostles either.

Yes, and isn't that the problem? How does a truth "evolve" to become the exact opposite of what was once taught?

But it's not the opposite. It's complimentary.

Yes the world to come is a resurrected world. But what happens to us in the meantime? We don't cease to exist. Even Jesus taught that our souls go somewhere in the story of Lazarus and the rich man -- Gehenna, a temporary hell. If you believe what the gospels say, Jesus said to the thief when he died, "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise." It's obvious that YOUR messiah didn't believe in soul sleep. He was a Jew.


SO...to sum things up...

1. The sacred texts don't say a whole lot about the afterlife because it's irrelevant. What is important is to obey God in this life, and to obey him simply because he is God, the Creator of the universe.
2. From the little that actually is written about the afterlife, we see the complimentary ideas accumulated over time, and that Judaism (which was the religion of Jesus) does not teach soul sleep.
3. Nor does mainstream Christianity teach soul sleep -- the belief is esoteric.

 

[Deeje]

You have zero evidence of this. Zip. Zilch. You are basically making it up out of whole cloth. It's kind of like Muslims saying that Muhammad was illiterate so that they can ascribe divine origins to the Quran. Remember that the Pharisees were setting up Torah schools. It seems a far easier explanation that Jesus, who was a brillant student, was taken under wing.

No evidence?

"But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?” 16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me." (John 7:14-16 NASB)

or another rendering....

"When the feast was half over, Jesus went up to the temple courts and began to teach. 15 Then the Jewish leaders were astonished and said, “How does this man know so much when he has never had formal instruction?” 16 So Jesus replied, “My teaching is not from me, but from the one who sent me." (NET)

You don't think his lack of formal religious education was a reason to discredit Jesus in the eyes of the Pharisees and the people?
Did Jesus ever seek to be educated at the schools? Do you know why he didn't... and why the twelve were also not educated men?

His words to his Father were....“I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike." (Luke 10:21 NABRE)

I did answer, but you misunderstood it, so i will be more clear.
The LORD (God) said to my lord (David).

It is David doing the writing. He doesn't say "YHWH said to me".....because sitting at God's right hand was a place of prominence for second in command in a kingdom.
Psalm 132:11..."The Lord swore an oath to David in truth,
he will never turn back from it:
“Your own offspring I will set upon your throne."

It is clearly a reference to David's "Lord" who was a future offspring.....the coming Messiah.

Both. Torah does not divide political and religious law. There is simply the Law. God's Law. He will rule the waY

Exactly....since God was the ruler of the nation, his representatives on earth were ruling in his name. But after the diaspora, Jews found themselves under Gentile domination by a succession of nations, as the prophet Daniel had foretold. (Daniel 2:29-45)
The "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24) were to run from the time of Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon, all the way through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Great Britain...and then to the last ruling entity in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.....Anglo-America. There are no rulers mentioned after this one. God's Kingdom is introduced and it crushes all corrupt human rulership out of existence and replaces them. (Daniel 2:44)

When did Jews become politically minded? When they were living under non Jewish rulers. In Jesus' day the "dagger men" (Zealots) were plotting to overthrow Rome in an attempt to liberate themselves from the yoke under which they were chafing. It did not end well for them.

Rather than participate in politics, Jesus warned his disciples to have nothing to do with it. God's kingdom had nothing in common with the kingdoms of this world. (John 18:36) They were not ruled by his Father. (1 John 5:19)

So is Israel today a religious nation or a political one?

 

[Deeje]

Well, you may believe Jesus was a liar but I don't, and we've covered this many times before.

And you still don't get it....Jesus was not a liar.....he is the one who told us that those he judges at the end were "never" known by him.

Well, the Bible says something different: Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If they were "beyond repair" then why the verse above?

Who was Jesus sent to metis? Not to the Jewish Leaders, because he condemned them to "gehenna" (the Jewish version, not Christendom's). The "lost sheep" were lost because of the deplorable shepherding and teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

He was not sent to patch up an incorrigibly corrupt religious system, but to rescue the "lost sheep" out of that polluted pen and shepherd them into a new one, under the care of himself...as the Fine Shepherd.

Also, aren't you even aware of the fact that many Jews did decide to follow Jesus?

What is that telling you about Judaism? The people were so blinded by the influence of the Pharisees, that they couldn't see past their lies. I can see the same situation in Christendom today. The rot set in so early that most people who confess to be Christians, have no idea that the Christianity they practice is a corrupted counterfeit of the one Jesus started. History repeats for all the reasons we already know.

Aren't you aware that Jesus didn't condemn all Jews or Judaism as a whole?

The Jewish system was only ever as good as its leaders and teachers metis. Once the teachings were corrupted, despite numerous attempts over the centuries to patch up the old system, once the Messiah was produced, it was time to let it go. (Matthew 23:37-39) Jesus put new wine into new wineskins. (Matthew 9:16-17)

Unlike you, Jesus didn't create an anti-Semitic stereotype and then condemn the stereotype.

Now hang on a minute there....criticism of the Jews as a nation is all on record in their own scripture.....was that anti-Semetic?
Was Jesus anti-Semetic for criticizing the Jewish leaders for their blatant hypocrisy? (Matthew 23:13-33)

Stating a truth might be uncomfortable, but a label of anti-Semitism is not what you pull out in an honest conversation that is all on the public record. It is not anti-Semitic to quote their own scripture and the numerous denunciations by their own prophets. Nor is it anti-Semetic to state that only a "remnant" of that nation were to be saved. (Romans 9:27-29; Isaiah 10:22-23; 1:9) We can read the same as they can.

Jesus was their greatest critic, so we either take our ques from the son of God, or from the Religious leaders who orchestrated his death....so which is it? You want to straddle two horses?

 

[Deeje]

Of course.

Can I ask you if you believe we have free will? If we have, then it was Adam's choice to eat of the forbidden fruit. But that was not foreordained to happen. Adam and his wife could have made different choices that would have altered the course of our history.

So where do you see a small piece of land in the Middle East in a different scenario? What is so "special" about that piece of land, compared to any other? God created the whole world after all. He instructed the first humans to fill it with their children. How many of them would have been Jewish?
What was the purpose of the Promised Land for the Jewish people?

The texts don't give the specifics, nor do we need them. Daniel 2:44 simply states that he will "divide and conquer."

I think it says a bit more than that....

"And in the days of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom forever, it will not be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left to another people; it will crumble and destroy all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever."

What will happen to those kingdoms that stand in opposition to God's kingdom at that time? They will experience "dĕqaq (Aramaic)" which is not a "divide and conquer" nor a mere "crumbling"....but a "shattering or breaking to pieces" and "destruction" of those kingdoms, leaving God's kingdom as the only ruling entity on planet Earth....for all time to come.

Which is exactly why Christians do not embrace you as fellow Christians.

Weeds apparently only embrace other weeds. But it isn't the similarity by which we identify Jesus' true disciples....it was by the love they showed to one another. (John 13:34-35)

The Jews didn't exactly embrace Jesus either....and it was what he expected. It is what we expect too. (John 15:18-21)

My hope for Gentiles is simply that they worship God and live lives of virtue.

Mine too....which is why I actively preach and have been doing so for over 40 years. (Matthew 28:19-20)
Jews don't knock on my door, bringing me good news about a Messiah who will change the world for the better.....but then, Christendom doesn't either. (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20; Matthew 24:14)

No offense, but it stretches the imagination to say that Christianity only stayed in tact during the time of the Apostles, defining Christianity believing Jesus is the messiah, that he rose from the dead, and participating in the rites of baptism and the Lord's Supper. Do you really think the Apostles ordained men they didn't trust to pass on their message? And so forth. Like I said, there has certainly been some change in Christianity, but its overall message has not changed.

Why should it stretch anyone's imagination? The Jews blew it straight after their release from Egyptian slavery, promising to obey their God in all things.....but those who fell to worshiping the golden calf, although initially liberated, failed to begin even the first leg of their journey to the Promised Land, nor did the majority of the others because of their disobedience....sentenced to wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. People are basically the same, regardless of what era they find themselves in.

The scriptures clearly indicate that the only thing holding back the apostasy in the first century ,was the presence of the apostles.

And btw, the JW are also not the Jewish sect of the Apostles either.

Thank you, I really needed to hear that...as if that is what I believe....? Did someone tell you that?

But it's not the opposite. It's complimentary.

I'm sorry but going from a belief in no immortal part of man surviving death, to the exact opposite is....well.....the exact opposite. Pagan religions promote this idea, not early Jewish believers and not the early Christians. Souls are mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Yes the world to come is a resurrected world. But what happens to us in the meantime? We don't cease to exist. Even Jesus taught that our souls go somewhere in the story of Lazarus and the rich man -- Gehenna, a temporary hell.

Where did Adam go when he died? Where did God say he would go? Back to the dust from which he was created.....nothing more.

Where was Adam before God created him?....Where were you...where was I? Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? If he was already in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back, only to die again?

Gehenna was Jerusalem's rubbish dump, not a temporary hell......nothing alive ever went into gehenna, so the only "hell" in the Bible is the grave. (sheol, hades) This is a place where there is no conscious activity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.....pictorial of the two classes that existed at the time of Jesus. The rich man represented the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the spiritually impoverished ones begging for crumbs at their table. Their deaths represented a change in status...the Pharisees lost their favored position with God and were replaced by the "lost sheep" who responded to Jesus kindly yoke and his loving teachings.

There is no heaven or hell scenario in the Bible. There is no teaching of an immortal soul either.

Psalm 115:15-17...
"Blessed are you to the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth.


16 The heavens are heavens of the Lord, but the earth He gave to the children of men.


17 Neither will the dead praise God, nor all those who descend to the grave."

Why do people assume that some conscious part of them must live on....somewhere? Why can't they sleep peacefully in their graves, waiting for the call to wake up, as Lazarus did?

If you believe what the gospels say, Jesus said to the thief when he died, "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise." It's obvious that YOUR messiah didn't believe in soul sleep. He was a Jew.

That old chestnut? Greek has no punctuation, so there is a comma used in that verse that can change the meaning of it entirely.
Read it again without the comma.

" And he said to him truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

Place the comma after the word "today" and what does it say?

What does the rest of scripture say about when Jesus went to heaven? Did he go to heaven that day? (Acts 1:3) If not, then Jesus was not telling this man what most people have been told. He was not saying that the man was going to be with him in heaven....so what was Jesus saying?

Did Jesus tell the evildoer that he would be in heaven, or in paradise? Is there a difference? Where was the first paradise? It was right here on earth in a lush garden planted by God himself. This was the original home of mankind; one that was lost, but will be returned to us once the schemes of the devil have been brought undone. Jesus' promise to the evildoer was reflected in John 5:28-29. He will be among the "unrighteous" whom Jesus will raise and educate. There are no deathbed Christians.

 

[Deeje]

SO...to sum things up...

1. The sacred texts don't say a whole lot about the afterlife because it's irrelevant. What is important is to obey God in this life, and to obey him simply because he is God, the Creator of the universe.
2. From the little that actually is written about the afterlife, we see the complimentary ideas accumulated over time, and that Judaism (which was the religion of Jesus) does not teach soul sleep.
3. Nor does mainstream Christianity teach soul sleep -- the belief is esoteric.

1) "The sacred texts don't say a whole lot about the afterlife"...that is because there is no afterlife to speak of. That is a lie planted by the devil in the garden to suggest that you don't really die. One of the parties was lying.....was it God or the snake? Is death the opposite of life or is death mealy another form of life? What did God say?

"What is important is to obey God in this life, and to obey him simply because he is God, the Creator of the universe." Yes! but how many are actually kidding themselves about how well they do that?

2) "From the little that actually is written about the afterlife, we see the complimentary ideas accumulated over time'. Exactly. The reason why there is little written is because it wasn't part of Jewish belief till much later in their history, particularly from Hellenic influence. There is no "afterlife" in Jewish scripture apart from the resurrection, which is a return to life, not a continuation.

"Judaism (which was the religion of Jesus) does not teach soul sleep." Oh but it does, Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before going to 'awaken' him? (John 11:11-14) I think Jesus was pretty clear about that....and Lazarus had nothing to say about where he had been if you want to glean inference from silence?

3) "Nor does mainstream Christianity teach soul sleep -- the belief is esoteric." Mainstream Christianity is not a very good source of information because they basically disagree with one another on a whole range of issues. I would rather get my beliefs from the Bible.

 

[metis]

The Jewish system was only ever as good as its leaders and teachers metis. Once the teachings were corrupted, despite numerous attempts over the centuries to patch up the old system, once the Messiah was produced, it was time to let it go. (Matthew 23:37-39) Jesus put new wine into new wineskins. (Matthew 9:16-17)

If the teachings were so corrupted why did Jesus tell his flock to follow what they teach but not to do what they do?

Now hang on a minute there....criticism of the Jews as a nation is all on record in their own scripture.....was that anti-Semetic?

When you stereotype a group and then condemn the group you've stereotyped, and in this case since it's Jews, yes, that's anti-Semitic. A much more logical assessment is to point our the diversity of Jews and of Judaism, and then condemn only the parts that you feel were "corrupt".

It is this constant stereotyping of groups that you do that is so morally reprehensible, which is why any responsible parent brings up their children to not stereotype any group or people.

Jesus was their greatest critic, so we either take our ques from the son of God, or from the Religious leaders who orchestrated his death....so which is it? You want to straddle two horses?

Jesus was a Jew operating from a rather liberal Jewish paradigm, and I "straddle two horses" because I think it both to be wrong and unethical to stereotype any group as there's always good and bad to be found in pretty much all, or at least most, groups and people.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Shabbat Shalom, Deeje. Good to hear from you again.

You don't think his lack of formal religious education was a reason to discredit Jesus in the eyes of the Pharisees and the people?
Did Jesus ever seek to be educated at the schools? Do you know why he didn't... and why the twelve were also not educated men?

I am convinced that Jesus was educated. Just as the Quran claims Mohammad was illiterate to make writing the Quran divine, so does the claims of the Christian scriptures that Jesus was uneducated try to make his wisdom seem divine. I don't buy it.

It is David doing the writing. He doesn't say "YHWH said to me".....because sitting at God's right hand was a place of prominence for second in command in a kingdom.

The psalm was not written by David, however much it may be traditional to attribute it to him.

Psalm 132:11..."The Lord swore an oath to David in truth,
he will never turn back from it:
“Your own offspring I will set upon your throne."

It is clearly a reference to David's "Lord" who was a future offspring.....the coming Messiah.

We do not disagree here. We only disagree that Jesus was/was not this messiah.

Exactly....since God was the ruler of the nation, his representatives on earth were ruling in his name.

God was not the political leader of the People of Israel. God was God. The King, the Prophets, the Judges, the Levites... These were the political leaders.

God designed Israel as the ideal nation. It had a government with taxation for the army/national defense and to care for the poor, for example. It had law and order. It had division of power so that Israel would never be ruled by a tyrant. Nations today should include these elements.

After the diaspora, Jews found themselves under Gentile domination by a succession of nations, as the prophet Daniel had foretold. (Daniel 2:29-45)
The "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24) were to run from the time of Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon, all the way through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Great Britain...and then to the last ruling entity in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.....Anglo-America. There are no rulers mentioned after this one. God's Kingdom is introduced and it crushes all corrupt human rulership out of existence and replaces them. (Daniel 2:44)

When did Jews become politically minded? When they were living under non Jewish rulers. In Jesus' day the "dagger men" (Zealots) were plotting to overthrow Rome in an attempt to liberate themselves from the yoke under which they were chafing. It did not end well for them.

You are leaving out the entire post Maccabean time period when Judea had won its independence from the Greeks and was free. Nor do you mention the Jewish state of Israel that has existed for the last 70 years, which is politically, culturally, and religiously Jewish.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Can I ask you if you believe we have free will? If we have, then it was Adam's choice to eat of the forbidden fruit. But that was not foreordained to happen. Adam and his wife could have made different choices that would have altered the course of our history.

Yes, I believe in free will -- without free will we could not be held morally responsible for our actions. For me "foreordained" simply means God foreknew, not that he caused. He knows in advance what our free choices will be.

So where do you see a small piece of land in the Middle East in a different scenario? What is so "special" about that piece of land, compared to any other? ...
What was the purpose of the Promised Land for the Jewish people?

It is special simply because it is ours. Why did God choose that particular piece of land? Don't know and don't need to know. One thought on the matter is that it is located where three continents come together (African, Asia, and Europe).

Why should it stretch anyone's imagination? The Jews blew it straight after their release from Egyptian slavery, promising to obey their God in all things.....but those who fell to worshiping the golden calf

I don't think it is the same thing.The golden calf was a return to the religion of egypt. Following the same pattern, the church would have had to fully return to second temple Judaism or Greco-Roman polytheism. You just can't say that about the Church.

Thank you, I really needed to hear that...as if that is what I believe....? Did someone tell you that?

But according to you, the ONLY authentic Christianity is that of the Apostles in the first century. Well, that was a form that was a sect of Judaism. Since you are nothing like that, this would mean that your church is in apostacy as well, by your own standard of judgment.



We are simply going to have to agree to disagree agreeably about what the Tanakh and Gospels say about the afterlife. I continue to maintain that you have decided on soul sleep in advance and then read it into the text. For me, I can be more objective since I have no dog in the race--it doesn't even matter to me if there is a heaven or a resurrection or no afterlife at all. I keep God's commandments because he is God almight and deserving of my obedience.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1) ..."What is important is to obey God in this life, and to obey him simply because he is God, the Creator of the universe." Yes! but how many are actually kidding themselves about how well they do that?

It is important to give up our denial of our sinfulness. I know that God demands from me absolute honesty when we review my life together. But the objective is not condemnation for sins, but productive criticism towards change. We aspire, with God's help, to obey him more fully today than we did yesterday.

2) "From the little that actually is written about the afterlife, we see the complimentary ideas accumulated over time'. Exactly. The reason why there is little written is because it wasn't part of Jewish belief till much later in their history, particularly from Hellenic influence.

And yet Jesus himself was part of that post Hellenistic second temple period, and embraced its ideas, such as Gehenna. (No he was not using it in the older sense of a garbage mound, but the new sense of a temporary hell..)

You complain that the story of the rich man and Lazarus was a mere parable. But even parables assume a reality from our own world. You don't have people with six arms, or apple that float up when they fall off of the tree. Jesus would never tell a parable about a hellish afterlife if he himself did not personally believe it to be part of reality.

3)... I would rather get my beliefs from the Bible.

Every Christian and Christian group says they get their beliefs from the Bible. The truth is, it's not the Bible but your INTERPRETATION of the Bible that is driving your beliefs. Or rather, it is more commonly the other way around, that your beliefs are driving your interpretation of the Bible.

Shabbat Shalom, my friend.

 

[Deeje]

Hello again,and nice talking with you too.

I am convinced that Jesus was educated. Just as the Quran claims Mohammad was illiterate to make writing the Quran divine, so does the claims of the Christian scriptures that Jesus was uneducated try to make his wisdom seem divine. I don't buy it.

The Jews of the time knew he wasn't educated at their schools and said so. On what basis would you deny that?....our scripture tells us that he had above average intelligence because he was no ordinary human....he was the son of God. He was not educated by men, but by eons of existence in heaven with his God and Father....his educator.

Remember that after Adam was created there was a period of education where God instructed him before he became a husband and father.

I believe that God educated this son before he became the Messiah.
I am not a trinitarian BTW. I believe that Jesus had divine origins, but he was not God.

We do not disagree here. We only disagree that Jesus was/was not this messiah.

He fulfilled all that was necessary to prove himself in that role AFAICS. The Jews of the time were expecting a completely different Messiah, a political liberator....so when Jesus made no attempt to liberate them from Roman domination, they rejected him. Apparently they are hanging onto that false expectation to this day.....and still no Messiah has come. Does it ever make you wonder?

God was not the political leader of the People of Israel. God was God. The King, the Prophets, the Judges, the Levites... These were the political leaders.

When did Israel go from a true Theocracy to a more political form of rulership under human Kings? It was when the people demanded a visible human king like the other nations had. God said it was a rejection of him as their King, but he let them have their way. What a short sighted decision! They had nothing but trouble, just as God had warned them. A succession of good and bad kings eventually led the nation into alienation from God. By the time Jesus came on the scene, the Jewish nation was spiritually lost. Jesus came to rescue the sheep within it. Not many responded....so his apostles were instructed to approach the Gentiles after Peter's vision, before he was sent to Cornelius.

God designed Israel as the ideal nation. It had a government with taxation for the army/national defense and to care for the poor, for example. It had law and order. It had division of power so that Israel would never be ruled by a tyrant. Nations today should include these elements.

I see that God designed Israel's place in his original purpose. He was going to bring the promised seed into the world, according to Genesis 3:15. He had to come through one family line spanning many generations as part of his credentials. Abraham was the most faithful man on earth at the time, so as a reward for his faith and obedience, he told Abraham that the promised one would come through his family line....so Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came before Israel became a nation. Jacob's name was changed to Israel and his sons sired the 12 tribes of Israel.

These were the only nation that had God's laws and were obligated by birth to keep them. It was most certainly a perfect system of law....but they were not a perfect people, and failed to keep it. Gods law was an everyday reminder of their sins...and the need for a permanent sacrifice to cover them.

 

[Deeje]

You are leaving out the entire post Maccabean time period when Judea had won its independence from the Greeks and was free.

Here is a little history about that......

"By 175 B.C.E., AntiochusIV of Syria ruled over a vast empire with peoples of diverse customs. Hoping to unify his people, he created one religion for all, with himself as “god manifest.” However, because Jehovah exacts exclusive devotion, the Jews refused to worship Antiochus. (Exodus 20:4) He therefore decided to eradicate this nonconformist religion of the Jews. Before long he forbade their animal sacrifices, the observance of the Sabbath, the practice of circumcision, and even the reading of the Hebrew Scriptures, all under pain of death. In fact, copies of the Hebrew Scriptures were sought out and burned!
Defying Jehovah, he dedicated Jerusalem’s temple to Zeus, or Jupiter. In December 167 B.C.E., a pagan altar was erected on top of the great altar in the temple courtyard where a daily burnt offering had been made to Jehovah. Ten days later, a sacrifice to Zeus was offered on the pagan altar. This desecration led to a Jewish uprising under the Maccabees. Antiochus IV battled them for three years. In 164 B.C.E., on the anniversary of the desecration, Judas Maccabaeus rededicated the temple to Jehovah and the festival of dedication—Hanukkah—was instituted.—John 10:22.

The Maccabees probably made a treaty with Rome in 161 B.C.E. and established a kingdom in 104 B.C.E. But the friction between them and the Syrian king continued. Finally, Rome was called upon to intervene. The Roman General Gnaeus Pompey took Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E. after a three-month siege. In 39 B.C.E., the Roman Senate appointed Herod—an Edomite—to be king of Judea. Ending the Maccabean rule, he took Jerusalem in 37 B.C.E."

(excerpts from: Two Kings in Conflict — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

Jesus came just 66 years later....and he condemned Israel's leaders for their reliance on man made traditions and said that they had invalidated God's word.

So according to all that and other Hebrew scripture that documents Israel's history, what was the collective time that Israel spent in God's good books, do you think?

Nor do you mention the Jewish state of Israel that has existed for the last 70 years, which is politically, culturally, and religiously Jewish.

Actually, if I saw one shred of evidence of God's blessing on Israel in the last 70 years, I might be persuaded to see some significance in it.....but I'm afraid I can't.

 

[Deeje]

If the teachings were so corrupted why did Jesus tell his flock to follow what they teach but not to do what they do?

These were the hypocrites that Jesus condemned to gehenna. What were they doing to earn this condemnation from God's son metis?

He said.... “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. 6 They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi." (Matthew 23:2-7)

Read the whole chapter and tell me how great the Pharisees were.....? What did John the Baptist think of them? Did Jesus condemn the Jewish people or just their leaders?

When you stereotype a group and then condemn the group you've stereotyped, and in this case since it's Jews, yes, that's anti-Semitic.

I am not stereotyping anyone. I am showing that just because a religion claims to worship God doesn't mean that they are.....it requires that we practice what we teach.

A much more logical assessment is to point our the diversity of Jews and of Judaism, and then condemn only the parts that you feel were "corrupt".

Its leaders were so corrupt that Jesus did not condemn only the parts that were wrong.......it wasn't the law that was wrong, it was the way Israel's leaders were interpreting and administering it. This is why teachers bear greater responsibility before God. If they go off the rails, they take their flocks with them, as was demonstrated with Jesus. The people who welcomed him on his triumphal ride into Jerusalem, were only a week later clamoring for his death. Why was that, do you think?

It is this constant stereotyping of groups that you do that is so morally reprehensible, which is why any responsible parent brings up their children to not stereotype any group or people.

Metis, religion has a history of being morally reprehensible in that way.....first century Jewish children were taught to hate Samaritans, today they are probably taught to hate Palestinians.....Catholic children were taught to hate Protestants and vice versa.....seriously man....this is historical reality. We all know the way it should be, but its a far cry and we would wish it to be otherwise.

Jesus was a Jew operating from a rather liberal Jewish paradigm, and I "straddle two horses" because I think it both to be wrong and unethical to stereotype any group as there's always good and bad to be found in pretty much all, or at least most, groups and people.

You 'straddle two horses' because you feel a need to be loyal to both...it is understandable and I admit quite noble....but the Jews, (according to Jesus) no longer have a place in God's arrangement. They could not stay faithful like their forefather, Abraham. Its a pity, but its true. (Matthew 23:37-39; Mark 12:1-9) I see Christendom has fallen into exactly the same trap. I personally have no horses in that race.

 

[metis]

Did Jesus condemn the Jewish people or just their leaders?

You avoided my question in terms of why did Jesus tell the people to do what the leaders teach them but not to behave like them? And then you not only stereotype the leaders but also the people as a whole.

Stereotyping is a form of lying, which is why any good parent will teach their children not to do it, and yet you and your fellow JW's use stereotyping continuously as your own posts clearly indicate. Your leaders have convinced you that this is supposedly right and proper and you've clearly bought into it, hook, line, and sinker. Why do they do it? because it is an attempt to legitimize themselves by using a we/they dichotomy and then demonizing the "they" so that the "we" and the only viable alternative. This is a tactic that almost all cults use.

.it wasn't the law that was wrong,

So, you follow the Law you say? Do you keep kosher, for just one example? I know you don't.

Catholic children were taught to hate Protestants and vice versa.....seriously man....this is historical reality

And you and your other JW's hate all other religions and denominations except yourselves, and that is the "historical reality", as you continue to stereotype and then demean the stereotypes you and your leaders created.

Funny thing is that I don't here any reference at mass or through Catholic media that has words of hate towards the JW's or any other religious groups, so who operates more on "hate", Deeje? Maybe look in the mirror to find the answer.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Remember that after Adam was created there was a period of education where God instructed him before he became a husband and father.

I believe that God educated this son before he became the Messiah.
I am not a trinitarian BTW. I believe that Jesus had divine origins, but he was not God.

And where do you get these ideas? Not from the Tanakh or the Christian scriptures. Aren't you doing what you complain about
Catholics doing -- adding the traditions of men? (Personally I have no problem with traditions. I'm just finding this a little hypocritical on the part of JW's.)

He fulfilled all that was necessary to prove himself in that role AFAICS. The Jews of the time were expecting a completely different Messiah, a political liberator....so when Jesus made no attempt to liberate them from Roman domination, they rejected him. Apparently they are hanging onto that false expectation to this day.....and still no Messiah has come. Does it ever make you wonder?

1 He didnt fulfill the messianic prophecies;

• He didn't sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem
• He didn't bring all the Jews in diaspora back to the promised Land
• He didn't usher in an era of earthly world peace

2. No, it does't make me wonder. The Messiah will come at the end of time. We aren't there.

When did Israel go from a true Theocracy to a more political form of rulership under human Kings?

I disagree with conventional wisdom; here is my reasoning:

the·oc·ra·cy
/THēˈäkrəsē/
noun

1. a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.

Israel's government always had separation of powers: King, Prophet, judges and Levites/Priests. Because the priests shared the ruling power, it remained a theocracy. And regardless of the label, it remained as God allowed. The King was in charge of national defense. The prophet advised the King and spoke as an oracle of God. The judges and Levites interpreted and enforced the laws. You can see from this that so far as day to day life went, the judges/Levites actually had more ruling power.

As I said before, if there had been no king, there would be no messiah.

I see you interpret Eve's "seed" as being a messianic prophecy. We interpret it in the plural, being all mankind.

You seem to focus in on Jews as being only the line of the messiah. We are of course, much more. Read the books of law, especially the parts about God's covenant with Abraham (Genesis 12, 15, and 17). It doesn't mention the messiah, but it mentions a lot of other stuff.

 

[Deeje]

You avoided my question in terms of why did Jesus tell the people to do what the leaders teach them but not to behave like them? And then you not only stereotype the leaders but also the people as a whole.

As long as they taught from the scriptures, Jesus said to follow what they said, but the Pharisees themselves did not follow what Gods word said, so he warned the people not to follow their appalling example. Why would he say that if the people were not imitating the attitude and example of their leaders? Jesus condemned the religious system that the Pharisees had set up for themselves. Time and again in Israel's history, its leaders went astray and took the people with them. Why did they do that? When God punished the nation, he punished them all. Why? It's called "collective responsibility". Christendom, I believe will be judged the same way.

Stereotyping is a form of lying, which is why any good parent will teach their children not to do it, and yet you and your fellow JW's use stereotyping continuously as your own posts clearly indicate. Your leaders have convinced you that this is supposedly right and proper and you've clearly bought into it, hook, line, and sinker. Why do they do it? because it is an attempt to legitimize themselves by using a we/they dichotomy and then demonizing the "they" so that the "we" and the only viable alternative. This is a tactic that almost all cults use.

Did Jesus stereotype the behavior of Israel's leaders? If they behaved in a stereotypical fashion, then why wouldn't he? (Matthew 23:37-39) Cause and effect is the principle here.....he identified the cause so that people could avoid the inevitable effect. It was repeated often, but no one learned the lesson from history....it's a human failing, caused by the abuse of power and arrogant pride.

Because God's people never quite got the message, Christendom followed the exact same path as Judaism....putting man-made traditions before God's word. Could Christianity be in a bigger or more divided mess? Who will pass the final test? Who will be found "doing the will of the Father"? (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus will be the judge.

So, you follow the Law you say? Do you keep kosher, for just one example? I know you don't.

See, this is why I can never discuss things with you rationally, without irrational statements like this getting in the way.
I am not Jewish, so why would I follow the Law?
Jesus said that only two Commandments of the law were important to follow.....'Loving God with our whole heart and loving our neighbor as ourselves.' As long as we keep those, the whole law was based on these two. You can't break the law in principle, without breaking one or both of these.

And you and your other JW's hate all other religions and denominations except yourselves, and that is the "historical reality", as you continue to stereotype and then demean the stereotypes you and your leaders created.

We rightfully "hate" what Jehovah hates....it's the lies, not the people.

"There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family." (Proverbs 6:16-19 NRSVCE)

False religion is guilty of all those things....history testifies to this.

God has always rejected false religion. He showed Israel in no uncertain terms how he felt about introducing false religious ideas into his established worship. But it kept happening. And then it happened again with Christianity....false religious ideas again corrupted what Jesus taught. No one went further in this than Roman Catholicism. You want a list of the things they adopted so that pagans would feel at home? Did Jesus tell them to make disciples like that? (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Funny thing is that I don't here any reference at mass or through Catholic media that has words of hate towards the JW's or any other religious groups, so who operates more on "hate", Deeje? Maybe look in the mirror to find the answer.

The "hate" is not for the people...it's never been hate for the people or else we would not willingly take the good news to them. It's about hatred for the false religious ideas that the church has fed to their flocks and told them it was truth. Just like the first century Jews, when their leaders fed them lies, they ended up murdering their own Messiah, confident that they were doing no wrong. (Matthew 27:24-25)

Fortunately for the relative "few" who responded to Jesus' preaching, there was no innocent blood on their hands. It also meant the Jesus' blood would not redeem those responsible for his murder. These would not flee from "the judgment of Gehenna".

How many innocent people were tortured and put to death by the church for daring to question the validity of what was being taught as Christian truth? False confessions were sought so that these murders could be justified. How does "Christianity" get more warped than that?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As long as they taught from the scriptures, Jesus said to follow what they said,

That is not what he said. It was unconditional. "Do and observe EVERYTHING they teach." This means that what they were teaching was not contrary to Torah. And it meant that the people were to obey the Oral Torah taught by them as well as the written Torah, since Jesus' following were to do and observe EVERYTHING they taught.

In other words, Jesus was not a Protestant or Catholic or JW. He was a Jew teaching JUDAISM.

 

[metis]

Did Jesus stereotype the behavior of Israel's leaders?

Two things.

First of all what you so often see within the NT is the use of dichotomies that, if taken literally, can all too often lead to wrong and destructive interpretations. In our modern times, we don't do that because we tend to stress objectivity and exactness. IOW, we can excuse their use of we/they dichotomies but we cannot excuse ourselves for doing the
same.

Secondly, as IC posted, Jesus was a Jew operating from Jewish paradigm, but also from a [very] liberal Pharisee approach. Therefore, to condemn Judaism is to condemn Jesus and the apostles, including Paul who says he "is" a Pharisee when he was arrested, not "was" a Pharisee.

...putting man-made traditions before God's word.

Like your JW leaders tell you to do. You have shown over and over again you will disagree with what scriptures say when convenient, such as your willingness to judge other groups and people. Your leaders invent all sorts of ideas, such as when their attempts at prophesying the end of times didn't materialize, thus inventing excuses. They lie over and over again, such as teaching you that Catholics worship the sun and Mary as "goddesses", both of which are nothing short of complete dishonest fabrications that they've indoctrinated you with. But you'd rather blindly believe them than actually look for the truth yourself.

See, this is why I can never discuss things with you rationally, without irrational statements like this getting in the way.
I am not Jewish, so why would I follow the Law?

Because the "Law" is a reference to the 613 Laws (Commandments) found in Torah: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

And how is my posting about "the Law" supposedly being "irrational"? You clearly do not understand what the Law is in the context of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, and yet I'm "irrational"?

The "hate" is not for the people...it's never been hate for the people or else we would not willingly take the good news to them. It's about hatred for the false religious ideas that the church has fed to their flocks and told them it was truth.

That is not all you have hated, Deeje, as you have condemned leaders in other denominations and religious faiths, which certainly isn't love. You repeatedly stereotype other groups, and then you condemn the groups and their leaders in judgmental and hate-filled ways, and anyone who follows your posts can clearly see that for themselves. I think the only person you are fooling here, Deeje, is yourself.

 

[Deeje]

That is not what he said. It was unconditional. "Do and observe EVERYTHING they teach." This means that what they were teaching was not contrary to Torah. And it meant that the people were to obey the Oral Torah taught by them as well as the written Torah, since Jesus' following were to do and observe EVERYTHING they taught.

Perhaps reading the whole of Matthew 23 would help to answer that point. Jesus said that the Pharisees had "seated themselves in the seat of Moses"...not that God had put them there. The rest of what he said about the Pharisees was hardly flattering.

If you read the sentence you selected in context with the rest of the chapter, then we get the whole picture. Very different to what you are promoting.

In other words, Jesus was not a Protestant or Catholic or JW. He was a Jew teaching JUDAISM.

Jesus had to be a Jew by birth...it was part of his credentials.

But Jehovah has always had his "Witnesses" (Isaiah 43:10) Jesus was called "the Faithful and True Witness" (Revelation 3:14) His disciples were sent out to be "Witnesses" of him to the most distant part of the earth. (Acts1:8)

That makes Jesus a 'Witness for Jehovah' just as the nation of Israel were to be his witnesses. So, while I can assure you that Jesus was not Catholic or Protestant....he was most definitely the foremost Witness of Jehovah.....and that makes his disciples also Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Deeje]

I have come to the conclusion that dialogue with someone like you is pointless metis. It's not what you address.....but what you ignore in your efforts to justify things that defy justification.

Two things.

First of all what you so often see within the NT is the use of dichotomies that, if taken literally, can all too often lead to wrong and destructive interpretations. In our modern times, we don't do that because we tend to stress objectivity and exactness. IOW, we can excuse their use of we/they dichotomies but we cannot excuse ourselves for doing the same.

You speak of 'excuses' as if you don't resort to them yourself....

Secondly, as IC posted, Jesus was a Jew operating from Jewish paradigm, but also from a [very] liberal Pharisee approach. Therefore, to condemn Judaism is to condemn Jesus and the apostles, including Paul who says he "is" a Pharisee when he was arrested, not "was" a Pharisee.

You honestly think Jesus could give the kind of dialogue he spoke in Matthew 23 and cling to "a liberal Pharisee approach"? Can you read? What part of Matthew 23 paints the Pharisees in any kind of positive way? Jesus condemned them outright along with the Sadducees. Every vestige of Judaism had been corrupted because of the way it was administered.

As for Paul, you again pluck one verse to act as a defence for your view. I am left to wonder if you have any knowledge of scripture other that what you were fed?

At Acts 26:4-5 Paul said in his own defence....
“All the Jews know my way of life from my youth, a life spent from the beginning among my own people and in Jerusalem. They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I have belonged to the strictest sect of our religion and lived as a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4-5 - NRSVCE)

He certainly did not live as a Pharisee after his conversion.

In fact he said that as Jew, his credentials were more authentic than most...."circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ." (Philippians 3:5-8 - NRSVCE)

He now regarded the advantages of his former life as "rubbish".

Like your JW leaders tell you to do. You have shown over and over again you will disagree with what scriptures say when convenient, such as your willingness to judge other groups and people. Your leaders invent all sorts of ideas, such as when their attempts at prophesying the end of times didn't materialize, thus inventing excuses. They lie over and over again, such as teaching you that Catholics worship the sun and Mary as "goddesses", both of which are nothing short of complete dishonest fabrications that they've indoctrinated you with. But you'd rather blindly believe them than actually look for the truth yourself.

Metis, you too swallow your church's version of events. With the historical record of Catholicism's activities over many centuries, please tell me what part of any of that was even a slight reflection of what Jesus taught? Where will I find a Pope in first century Christianity. The "Pontiff" is a shortened form of the title "Pontifex Maximus" which is a pagan Roman title. Your Pope bears that title to this day.

Sun worship is clearly part of Catholic tradition. Can you explain the presence of the obisisk and the Babylonian sun wheel that is right there in St Peter's Square? The obelisk was transported from Egypt where it was venerated as a shaft of the sun, representing the sun God Ra, not Jesus Christ.

Can you explain why every title given to Mary were the very same titles given to worship of the ancient Mother goddesses?
Ishtar was hailed as the “Holy Virgin,” “my Lady,” and “the merciful mother who listens to prayer.” Isis and Astarte were called “Queen of Heaven.” Cybele was styled the “Mother of all the Blest.” All these titles, with slight variations, are applied to Mary. Just a coincidence? You see no problem with that?

Because the "Law" is a reference to the 613 Laws (Commandments) found in Torah: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

If I am not Jewish and I am not a Jewish procelytes, so why would the Law apply to me? I am a Gentile and for us, the apostles declared that the only things we needed to observe were to 'abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from consuming blood, to avoid eating the flesh of unbled animals, and to avoid sexual immorality' (Acts 15:28-29) No Sabbath, no circumcision, no sacrificing animals or anything that Jews had to observe according to Law.

And how is my posting about "the Law" supposedly being "irrational"? You clearly do not understand what the Law is in the context of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, and yet I'm "irrational"?

It never was applicable to me or any other Gentile Christian. It is irrational to suggest that it did. Jesus chose just two of the original laws and said that the whole obligation of us as his disciples was based on those two. "Love God and neighbor"....not complicated at all.

That is not all you have hated, Deeje, as you have condemned leaders in other denominations and religious faiths, which certainly isn't love. You repeatedly stereotype other groups, and then you condemn the groups and their leaders in judgmental and hate-filled ways, and anyone who follows your posts can clearly see that for themselves. I think the only person you are fooling here, Deeje, is yourself.

The one clearly evident thing we glean from Jesus' teachings is that we must keep our worship free from the contamination of false worship. Unless people know what false worship looks like, how will they ever see a way to exit the abominable maze that is today's "Christianity". (Revelation 18:4)

If Jesus was to come back tomorrow....who would he recognise as his own? Many are going to claim to be his disciples but will be shocked at his rejection of them. (Matthew 7:21-23) He will tell them that he "NEVER knew them. What does "never" mean? Why does he call them "workers of lawlessness"? Whose laws are they breaking?

We all have some serious decisions to make metis.....we all have to hope that we have made the right ones, based on God's word, not on man made traditions. Those who get it wrong will get no second chance.

It's not about hating people, or pointing fingers and hurt feelings....it's about saving lives. No one has to apologise for telling the truth.