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How much of Tolkein's Middle Earth was Christian, and how much was Old Celtic?

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Like which elements were influenced by Christianity, and which elements by Celtic and other mythologies. I have heard that Gandalf was meant to be Odin. I'm wondering how much all this is so? Because I know Tolkein was a devout Roman Catholic.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Gandalf has nothing to do with Odin. Go read The Similarion. It sets out what's essentially an entirely separate mythology, and since Tolkein spent decades working on it, it probably doesn't resemble any of its influences.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I mean Gandalf's apparence seems to coencide with that of Odin the Traveller, an old man with a beard

odin.jpg
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The five Istari -- the wizards Gandalf the Gray (Olorin), Saruman the White (Curunir), Radagast the Brown, and the two "blue wizards" who went to the far east and south and weren't featured in the trilogy -- are the same type of being as Sauron; just lesser in power.

The Istari, Sauron, the Balrog -- these are all "demigods," a class of beings called Maiar. In the beginning the Maiar were servants to the "gods," the Valar. The mightiest of the Valar and the first Dark Lord before Sauron was Melkor, who was later named Morgoth ("black enemy of the world"), and he corrupted a lot of Maiar into his service as he waged war against the other Valar.

Morgoth's corrupted servants included Sauron (who used to be one of a good Valar's apprentices, Aule... who is like the god of earth and stonework, whence Sauron learned knowledge of ringlore that he would use later to forge the One Ring) and many other Maiar that put on forms of shadow and fire (they became the balrogs, of which Morgoth had armies of). Interestingly, another Maia that would later fall to evil was also one of Aule's Maiar -- Curunir, later to be known in Middle-Earth as Saruman the White.

Anyway, Olorin -- or Gandalf -- spent most of his time in the First Age (before elves and men awoke) in the gardens of Valinor learning the virtues of patience and sorrow, which would give him the skills he needed to single handedly kindle the hearts and courage of folks in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age to combat the growing shadow of Mordor.

So, I don't really see a similarity between Gandalf and Odin. The Istari were sent to Middle-Earth in the Third Age because the Valar knew that Sauron was still brooding somewhere in Middle-Earth, and though they themselves refuse to help the peoples of Middle-Earth because of their self-imposed exile and separation from Valinor, they loved them too much not to lend at least a little help... so they picked 5 of the wisest Maiar in Valinor and sent them to Middle-Earth clad as old men with walking sticks so they would be seen as beings of wisdom and not beings of power (because they were bidden only to kindle the native courage of the people, not to win their battles for them).

The Silmarillion says that after the defeat of the first and most terrible Dark Lord (Melkor/Morgoth) that his leiutenant Sauron would rise "like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, less evil only in that for long he served another other than himself." This obviously happened and forms the basis of the Lord of the Rings and the Second/Third Ages, but as is already known Saruman also chose the path of folly and madness and followed the destructive, treasonous path of Morgoth by trying to take the One Ring for himself.

Edit: It's interesting to note that Iluvatar himself (the one true god, the creator-being of Middle-Earth) only intervened directly in the world twice: once to destroy treasonous Numenor under King Ar-Pharazon, and once to bring Gandalf back to life with enhanced native power.
 
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Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I'm not really sure, but I thought the part where Samwise betrays Frodo for thirty pieces of silver and turns him over to the legions of Mordor to be crucified, yeah, I thought that sounded vaguely familiar . . . Ehh, maybe I'm reading too much into it.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I'm pretty sure Tolkein's books were plagarized from that Harry Potter series.

It cracks me up that the kid from the movie Troll is named Harry Potter. Then again, it cracks me up that the kid from the Harry Potter movies is actually in movies.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
The five Istari -- the wizards Gandalf the Gray (Olorin), Saruman the White (Curunir), Radagast the Brown, and the two "blue wizards" who went to the far east and south and weren't featured in the trilogy -- are the same type of being as Sauron; just lesser in power.

The Istari, Sauron, the Balrog -- these are all "demigods," a class of beings called Maiar. In the beginning the Maiar were servants to the "gods," the Valar. The mightiest of the Valar and the first Dark Lord before Sauron was Melkor, who was later named Morgoth ("black enemy of the world"), and he corrupted a lot of Maiar into his service as he waged war against the other Valar.

Morgoth's corrupted servants included Sauron (who used to be one of a good Valar's apprentices, Aule... who is like the god of earth and stonework, whence Sauron learned knowledge of ringlore that he would use later to forge the One Ring) and many other Maiar that put on forms of shadow and fire (they became the balrogs, of which Morgoth had armies of). Interestingly, another Maia that would later fall to evil was also one of Aule's Maiar -- Curunir, later to be known in Middle-Earth as Saruman the White.

Anyway, Olorin -- or Gandalf -- spent most of his time in the First Age (before elves and men awoke) in the gardens of Valinor learning the virtues of patience and sorrow, which would give him the skills he needed to single handedly kindle the hearts and courage of folks in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age to combat the growing shadow of Mordor.

So, I don't really see a similarity between Gandalf and Odin. The Istari were sent to Middle-Earth in the Third Age because the Valar knew that Sauron was still brooding somewhere in Middle-Earth, and though they themselves refuse to help the peoples of Middle-Earth because of their self-imposed exile and separation from Valinor, they loved them too much not to lend at least a little help... so they picked 5 of the wisest Maiar in Valinor and sent them to Middle-Earth clad as old men with walking sticks so they would be seen as beings of wisdom and not beings of power (because they were bidden only to kindle the native courage of the people, not to win their battles for them).

The Silmarillion says that after the defeat of the first and most terrible Dark Lord (Melkor/Morgoth) that his leiutenant Sauron would rise "like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, less evil only in that for long he served another other than himself." This obviously happened and forms the basis of the Lord of the Rings and the Second/Third Ages, but as is already known Saruman also chose the path of folly and madness and followed the destructive, treasonous path of Morgoth by trying to take the One Ring for himself.

Edit: It's interesting to note that Iluvatar himself (the one true god, the creator-being of Middle-Earth) only intervened directly in the world twice: once to destroy treasonous Numenor under King Ar-Pharazon, and once to bring Gandalf back to life with enhanced native power.

That sounds all too like Norse mythology to me. Even the greater class and lesser class of spirits. Norse mythology has the Aesir and Vanir, or- the gods and the giants, but technically the giants aren't gods. The giants live in their own heaven called Joutenheim, and the gods live in Asgard.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Like which elements were influenced by Christianity, and which elements by Celtic and other mythologies. I have heard that Gandalf was meant to be Odin. I'm wondering how much all this is so? Because I know Tolkein was a devout Roman Catholic.
Tolkein was a religious Christian, but he also stated clearly to his children and his peers that his stories in Middle-earth were NOT allegorical to ANYTHING.

Good fights evil, and mostly wins. That is about how far the religious influence goes.

Any author who writes fiction will have their beliefs come out in their writing, in one way or another. But the Old Hobbit himself would have been horrified if people tried to link his work to anything in this world in a real way.

He intended to "create" a British mythology. But to make his work jive with REAL characters? He didn't intend to do anything of that nature.

If people manage to find allegorical situations that make them happy, that is well and good. However, that was never J.R.R. Tolkein's intention.

(Listening to his sons' interviews with Peter Jackson leads to all kinds of wonderful knowledge of what Mr. Tolkein had in mind.)
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Like which elements were influenced by Christianity, and which elements by Celtic and other mythologies. I have heard that Gandalf was meant to be Odin. I'm wondering how much all this is so? Because I know Tolkein was a devout Roman Catholic.

As it happens, I wrote my undergrad thesis on Tolkien, and I had a section in which I discussed just this question!

He would have said that the work was influenced by language more than anything else. It was language that first led him to create the elements of Middle Earth, although the stories themselves also had root in a friendly agreement he had made with his close friend CS Lewis to both write stories. His poetry shows deep deep resonances of Anglo-Saxon influence, and his created languages are admirably drawn from various tongues of Northern Europe and the British Isles-- in the latter case, mostly Welsh, a tongue of which he was fond, though he claimed incomplete fluency in it.

Tolkien did not think that his stories were Christian works, though he admits frankly in his correspondence that part of the reason that the early parts of what were eventually incorporated into the Silmarillion (specifically, the Ainulìndalë and the Valaquenta) were structured the way that they were in part because they needed to be satisfactory to a mind that believed in the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother (as he put it). Nonetheless, as he himself noted in the forward to the second edition of Lord of the Rings, he disliked allegory in all forms, and strongly resisted the idea that his works were any sort of allegory, religious or political.

Some Christian influence, of course, cannot be doubted, and he himself did not deny it. There is no Illuvatar, no Melkor, without the Christian God the Father and Lucifer the Fallen One. A correspondent of Tolkien's (who may have been a priest, if I recall correctly) compared Galadriel to the Virgin Mary, and while Tolkien denied an equivalence in his imagination or intent, he at least tacitly admitted to some influence in terms of the emotional freight with which he sought to lade his descriptions of her.

Interestingly, though, Tolkien was quick to point out the relative absence of practical religion in his created world; the Elves had none, he said, and in his own words, the spiritual practices of the Dúnedain of Númenor were an austere absolute monotheism more akin to Maimonidean Judaism than to Christian observance.

As for mythology, Tolkien claimed to be much influenced by the old Kalevala, which is the collection of Finnish poetic cycles written down in the 19th Century as a national epic. There can be no doubt that he was very much influenced by the Norse Eddas, and the Niebelungslied. Some of the names he uses in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings come right out of the Elder Edda. Beowulf, and perhaps also the Middle English Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (which Tolkien also translated, in an extremely successful poetic rendering) were influences as well. He was almost certainly influenced by the Mabinogion (the collection of poetic cycles which are the Welsh national epic), and perhaps also Trioedd Ynys Prydain (The Welsh Triads, a Welsh/Arthurian collection of wisdom epigrams and hints of tales).

Tolkien himself rejected claims of any resemblance of his works to Irish mythology: he apparently disliked Irish mythology, finding little love for what he saw as its vigorous drinking and sex, and its gleefully embroidered violence. But he did admit, at least tacitly, to some small influence by the various Arthurian cycles.

I don't know that there can really be any measuring of how much influence of Christianity versus how much influence of mythology there can be. Ultimately, all influences were completely filtered through Tolkien, and he was greatly successful at blending his influences seamlessly into a unique and novel product.
 
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