How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[Trailblazer]

Almighty God is not a man. God is Spirit.

The doctrine of the trinity perplexes many, but it is central to an orthodox understanding of the Christian faith. It is this doctrine that you are failing to understand.

The Father is transcendent, and remains so, but to redeem mankind he condescends to come down and live amongst us. He does this in the form of the Son. The Son is also the Word of God.

I agree with everything you said above. I just learned something new that I did not know Christians believe and it correlates with what Baha’is believe. You said God is Spirit which means that God is not flesh; so God transcends flesh, God is transcendent. What you are referring to as “Spirit” Baha’is refer to as the Essence of God, that part of God we cannot ever understand or see.

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64​

Baha’is believe that God can come down and live among us by manifesting Himself in the world, as Jesus did. I do not believe than man needed to be redeemed because Baha’is do not believe in original sin, so there was no penalty to pay. Therein lies one difference between Christianity and the Baha’i beliefs. Since we all have a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature (sinful nature) Jesus saved us from our lower material nature by giving us His teachings and setting an example. The cross sacrifice was a symbol of detachment and self-denial, the example we are to follow. The following quote refers to Jesus and it summarizes the Baha’i belief on the primary significance of Jesus’ mission on earth, the remission of sins and the attainment to eternal life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​

The Father and risen Son send the Holy Spirit, to dwell within believers. This is God immanent. The Holy Spirit is the same Spirit that dwelt in Christ, and was sent by the Father. So God is Holy Spirit.

Baha’is do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, but rather it is the Bounty of God; so God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit are the rays of the sun. The Holy Spirit was sent by the father (God) to the Son (Jesus) and from Jesus it reflected upon the Apostles.

“The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 108​

As I said above, Baha’is believe that the Father (God) sent the Holy Spirit to the Son (Jesus).

“To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52​

Jesus in turn brought the Holy Spirit to believers. However, Baha’is do not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells inside of Jesus or inside believers; rather it is reflected in their soul and becomes visible in their reality. Intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, come about as a result of the Bounty of God which is the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit does not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, into a human body, but rather it has a direct connection to the human soul.

In Mark 10:18 Jesus is called Good, and in reply he tells the man that only God is Good. Now, consider this. Has Jesus said, I am not good? No, he hasn't. He has left it up to his audience to decide whether or not he (Jesus) is God. Is Jesus GOOD? I would say, Yes, and in consequence I believe Him to be my God and Saviour.

The way I see it, in the following verses Jesus was saying that God was greater than He was, and in so doing Jesus was differentiating Himself from God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

Jesus wanted us to worship and serve only God, not Him, but since God is transcendent and remains in hiding, we can only worship God through Jesus and that is as God intended it to be.Jesus was the mediator between the unknowable Spirit God and man. We can think of Jesus as God since Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God, as long as we understand that God is exalted beyond human comprehension and God resides where we can never see Him, which is why we needed Jesus to appear on earth.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

In the other two passages you have to consider at what point in time the events happen. Jesus' life is lived through phases of divine revelation. Jesus was born 'under the law' and lived that way until about 30 years of age. He was then anointed by the Holy Spirit and began to minister in power. But he was still a mediator, God and Man. This places him as a Son under his Father.

I agree with all of the above.

However, once his flesh has been crucified, and he is raised to heaven, he changes into an immortal being that is able to reside at the right hand of his Father. As such, He is worthy of worship, and King of Heaven and Earth, for all creation is placed under His authority.

I believe that Jesus was crucified and then He ascended to heaven to be at the right hand of God. I do not believe that His physical body ascended but rather that His soul ascended, and once in heaven His soul took on a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm. So Jesus is an immortal being as we will all be someday, after we die physically and our souls ascend to the spiritual world. The difference between Jesus and ordinary humans is that Jesus has a special relationship with God that we can never have, Jesus knows God in a way that we can never know God; Jesus is in the bosom of the Father.

Jesus never considered Himself as worthy of worship, and He never referred to Himself as King of Heaven and Earth, or said that all creation is placed under His authority. These are beliefs that the Christians added later based upon misinterpretations of Bible verses which became doctrines of the Church.The two verses below completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it. Jesus came to glorify God and bear witness to the truth about God, and after He did so His work was finished here.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.​

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

Which is why he is able to return and bring judgment.

There was no need for Jesus to return to bring judgment because that was not related to His earthly mission, and since He completed His mission, there was no need for Him to return to earth.However, Baha’is believe in a Day of Judgment and that we are living in that Day. This short chapter explains the Baha’i beliefs: The Day of Judgment

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead.This short chapter explains the Baha’i beliefs about the resurrection of the dead: The Great Resurrection

 

[wizanda]

Jesus never considered Himself as worthy of worship, and He never referred to Himself as King of Heaven and Earth, or said that all creation is placed under His authority.

Like Yeshua claimed to be the Lord of David, that the Children of Israel will cast out demons by his name, and that it was his House of Prayer... Plus the Tanakh declared he was YHVH.

In my opinion.

 

[Muffled]

So Paul was essentially a manipulative deceiver?

And what of James and the rest of the thousands of Jewish believers in Jesus who were "zealous for Torah" but who were not missionaries?

When I go to someones house for dinner. I eat their food. I am not deceiving them into thinking I eat the same food at home. In the same way Paul keeps the law among the Jews because it is their house. When I attend a synagogue I put on a yarmulke.

I believe James was a pragmatist.

I believe not all believers believed the same thing. The Judaizers believed in keeping the law.

 

[Muffled]

Muhammad was a Comforter because He was the return of the Holy Spirit.

Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth because He was the return of the Holy Spirit.

The “disembodied” Holy Spirit cannot teach things and bring them to remembrance. The disembodied Holy Spirit cannot guide you to all truth.

It makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a man could do those things:

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgmen

Moreover, and this is an important point, if this was to apply only to the apostles we know that all the things on bulleted list above did not happen during their lifetimes. We know that, because that stuff was not supposed to happen until Christ returned.

However, all those things Baha’u’llah has already done or will happen as the result of His coming.

Why not look at what Jesus said in John 14, which flows from one verse to the next verse.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; -- Jesus says that the Father (God) will give us another Comforter. Jesus was the first Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.​

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – Jesus says that the world cannot see or receive the Spirit of truth (Baha’u’llah) because we do not know him yet, since he has not come yet; but the disciples know the Spirit of truth because it is the same Holy Spirit that resides in them as a result of Jesus. Iows, the Holy Spirit Baha’u’llah will bring is the same Holy Spirit that Jesus brought, since it is the Bounty of God which never changes.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. – Jesus said He would come but if you tie that together to the two verses above, we can see Jesus did not mean He would come in the same body, but rather the same Spirit would come (another Comforter). Moreover, he could not have addressing only the disciples, because neither Jesus nor Baha’u’llah came during their lifetimes.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.– Finally, Jesus made it perfectly clear that the world would not see Him again after He left; but we will see Him because His spirit lives on forever. As a result of believing in Jesus we will gain eternal life.​

I believe this is false and totally ungrounded.

I believe I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that.

 

[Muffled]

If the Gospel of John is made up & there are loads of contradictions between it and the Synoptic Gospels; then there is no such thing as "the comforter", and both people claiming it after are citing a false book as their truth claim.

In my opinion.

I believe I claim by the Holy Spirit that the book of John is not made up.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe this is false and totally ungrounded.

I believe I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that.

I believe that what Christians believe about the Comforter being the Holy Spirit that was sent by Jesus to live inside of believers is totally ungrounded. It is based upon an inaccurate interpretation of Bible verses that came to be widely accepted in Christianity.

It makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a man could do those things:

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Baha’u’llah was the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter promised by Jesus in John 14, 15 and 16:

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. 2 Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 63-64​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When I go to someones house for dinner. I eat their food. I am not deceiving them into thinking I eat the same food at home. In the same way Paul keeps the law among the Jews because it is their house. When I attend a synagogue I put on a yarmulke.

I believe James was a pragmatist.

I believe not all believers believed the same thing. The Judaizers believed in keeping the law.

Paul testified in Festus' court of law that he had never broken Jewish law. This means that he either ate kosher when at Gentile homes, or he lied to Festus in court.

A Judaizer is someone that believes in the mandatory conversion of Gentiles to Jews, that they need to be circumcised and take on the 613 laws of the Sinai covenant.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about all the Jewish believers continuing to participate in Judaism as well as being believers that Jesus was the messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My suggestions:

As a Jew speaking to other Jews he might have said things that outsiders would misinterpret. It was a time of Roman occupation and oppression, so a little bit of a nadsat should not surprise. The Roman authorities would have definitely gotten hold of a copy of the gospel, and if it said anything remotely political sounding would have disagreed at sword point. The Christians would have let the Roman authorities read everything in their materialistic fashion.


David sits at the right hand of Israel, which is an expression of God not the entirety of God. The Torah, similarly, is an expression of God not the entirety of God. The Holy Spirit is, too. So are you and I.


It depends on how attribution works. In modern times we have copyrights, and we keep track of individual authors. This may not be the case for historical works. It does not behoove Jesus to stop in mid speech and clarify this. It could be by David or attributed to David.

When Israel opts for a king they reject the LORD, so the position of king is idolatry I think. This for me explains why the moment all of Jesus work is finished he returns the crown, ending all dynastic claims.


Hebrews says he had to be made perfect. He also denied being good in the gospels and in the NT it says the Son has to learn obedience through suffering. By extension it is probably talking about more than just Jesus, but it applies to Jesus.

Where does Jesus 'return the crown'?!

Nowhere did Jesus deny being good. He said that only God was good.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Let's assume for a moment that the gospel account of this is accurate and not a later editing in of a legend (because we really don't know this, but we'll assume for the moment). It means Jesus held an esoteric view. The question then becomes why would he hold such an odd, rare view, NOT why do I not accept his educated teaching.

The psalm is traditionally attributed to David, and has David speaking to himself in the third -person. However, modern scholarship agrees that David did not write it.

I have no problems with David being called a priest after the order of Melchizadek. It's a way of denoting how close to God he was, even though he was not a Levitical priest. I'm not sure why you would have problems with it. Do you have problems with the human King of Salem being a priest of God?

Has Jesus become the stumbling block?
He challenges people to accept him wholly, or sink. As Jesus said, 'He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.' [Matthew 12:30]

And what 'modern scholarship' has suddenly undermined the tradition of the rabbis? It's quite clear that David is not talking in the third person. He would not say 'my Lord' about himself. If David wrote this Psalm then David is talking about another Lord, distinct from THE LORD! And as I have already made clear, David cannot even approach the throne of God because he is not without sin! So the Lord who is to sit at THE LORD'S right hand must be the Messiah.

The fact that Melchizadek was not created, or born, and had no beginning or ending, should make you realize that this was no ordinary mortal priest. He was the King of Jerusalem (Salem) and the chief priest in one. His two titles mean 'King of Righteousness' and 'King of Peace'. These are titles that only God owns. These are the titles given to the Messiah.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Where does Jesus 'return the crown'?!

Nowhere did Jesus deny being good. He said that only God was good.

I am not trying to argue against the trinity. Here is the passage:

This: (NIV) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.”[fn] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

For me this also is a reason why Jesus leaves instead of staying with us. It always bothered me why he would leave when things were just getting awesome. Also this seems to go with what the temptation is about: the kingdoms of this world. Yes he could stay and rule the world, but this would be idolatry. He leaves instead until everything is accomplished.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I agree with everything you said above. I just learned something new that I did not know Christians believe and it correlates with what Baha’is believe. You said God is Spirit which means that God is not flesh; so God transcends flesh, God is transcendent. What you are referring to as “Spirit” Baha’is refer to as the Essence of God, that part of God we cannot ever understand or see.
The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead.This short chapter explains the Baha’i beliefs about the resurrection of the dead: The Great Resurrection

Here's my issue with the Baha'i faith, and with Islam.

As the Shema says, there is only one God. That one God has revealed His Word through His Chosen People, the Israelites. I believe that the literary prophets of Old and New Testaments were prophets born to the tribes of Israel.

This choice of Israel is important because it automatically cuts out other prophecies, even when they hold SOME truth, because they do not tell the whole of God's truth. And BECAUSE they do not tell the whole truth they become a deception.

The Bible is also a complete story. Genesis tells us of the creation of the first heaven and earth. Revelation tells us of the new heaven and earth. The book is complete and needs no additions or subtractions.

The Bible is big on the theme of SIN! Adam sinned by disobeying the one and only commandment he had been given, namely 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

Did Adam and Eve die? Yes, in the day. A just and righteous God brings justice. Death was the wages of sin. Death came upon the human race, and all have been affected.

So where, you might ask, is the merciful and loving God of the Christians?

Since human beings cannot save themselves from sinking sand, they cry out to a merciful God. That merciful God hears their cry and responds by sending a Saviour - the Son of God.

Jesus Christ is sent into the world to take the punishment for sin (a once and for all-time sacrifice). He pays the price, and is raised to life again. Why? Because the sacrifice was acceptable and holy.

Romans 5:12, 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'
Romans 5:15, 'For if through the offence of one, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.'

Trailblazer, you have described the crucifixion of Jesus as 'a symbol of detachment and self-denial'. To God it is MUCH MORE! He gave his only begotten Son that all who believe in Him might have life, and have life abundantly! To me it's the most amazing event in the whole of history!

Does God the Father believe that his Son deserves worship? Sure he does.
Revelation 22:1, 'AND he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.'

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's my issue with the Baha'i faith, and with Islam.

As the Shema says, there is only one God. That one God has revealed His Word through His Chosen People, the Israelites. I believe that the literary prophets of Old and New Testaments were prophets born to the tribes of Israel.

This choice of Israel is important because it automatically cuts out other prophecies, even when they hold SOME truth, because they do not tell the whole of God's truth. And BECAUSE they do not tell the whole truth they become a deception.

Even if that is true that only the prophets of the Old and New Testaments hold the entire truth, that does not present a problem for Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill these prophecies.

The Bible is also a complete story. Genesis tells us of the creation of the first heaven and earth. Revelation tells us of the new heaven and earth. The book is complete and needs no additions or subtractions.

Baha’u’llah wrote that the Bible is God’s greatest testimony to His creatures, but it is not the end of the story. The story of humanity cannot end until humanity no longer exists so God will continue to send Manifestations of God (Messengers) throughout eternity.

Revelation might tell the “story” of the new heaven and earth it does not provide what will be needed for its establishment. Humans are going to establish the Kingdom of God on earth and in order to do that they needed a set of instructions. Those counsels were revealed by Baha’u’llah.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286​

The Bible is big on the theme of SIN! Adam sinned by disobeying the one and only commandment he had been given, namely 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

Did Adam and Eve die? Yes, in the day. A just and righteous God brings justice. Death was the wages of sin. Death came upon the human race, and all have been affected.

As you may or may not know, Baha’is do not believe in original sin because we do not interpret the Adam and Eve story literally. This short chapter explains some meanings of the story but he says there are others: 30: ADAM AND EVE

So where, you might ask, is the merciful and loving God of the Christians?
Since human beings cannot save themselves from sinking sand, they cry out to a merciful God. That merciful God hears their cry and responds by sending a Saviour - the Son of God.

Jesus Christ is sent into the world to take the punishment for sin (a once and for all-time sacrifice). He pays the price, and is raised to life again. Why? Because the sacrifice was acceptable and holy.

Romans 5:12, 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'
Romans 5:15, 'For if through the offence of one, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.'

Christ sacrificed Himself so we would live, meaning we would have eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body. There is NO REASON why Jesus would have had to rise from the grave. The work was done when Jesus died on the cross. Baha’u’llah describes the significance of this:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

Trailblazer, you have described the crucifixion of Jesus as 'a symbol of detachment and self-denial'. To God it is MUCH MORE! He gave his only begotten Son that all who believe in Him might have life, and have life abundantly! To me it's the most amazing event in the whole of history!

That’s true, it was much more than that... I was just in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that. Jesus sacrificed Himself so we might have life abundantly and it is one of the most amazing events in human history. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought God to sacrifice Him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

It is rather sad for those who do not recognize Jesus for whatever reason. I never would have known Jesus had I not become a Baha’i as I was not raised a Christians and not interested in religion or God.

Does God the Father believe that his Son deserves worship? Sure he does.
Revelation 22:1, 'AND he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.'

I do not understand why you think that verse equates to that. But besides that, Jesus said not to worship Him, but only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

 

[Redemptionsong]

Even if that is true that only the prophets of the Old and New Testaments hold the entire truth, that does not present a problem for Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill these prophecies.

I do not understand why you think that verse equates to that. But besides that, Jesus said not to worship Him, but only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

Allow me to focus on a couple of these issues.

Firstly, is it true that Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfil the prophecies of the Bible? Well, you are welcome to show me where in scripture they're to be found. Don't forget, Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken', so we should see an unbroken chain of references that connect these characters to the Bible.

Secondly, the issue of whether Jesus Christ is worthy of worship. Do we see instances of the worship of Jesus Christ during his ministry and prior to his resurrection. I don't believe we do. And there is a very good reason for this. The Son of God is a mediator between mankind and God the Father. He is born of a woman, but receives the Holy Spirit at his Baptism. He then lives by the Spirit of God in the temple of his body. As the Son, He always directs worship to the Father.

Now, after the resurrection, we begin to see a change. Thomas is heard to say, My Lord and my God! Does Jesus say to him, Uhm, no that's not me! No! Jesus accepts the utterance without a word of reproof.

But Thomas has not yet received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. When he does, the picture changes again. Why? Because Thomas is now born-again of the same spirit as Christ and is part of the body of Christ. So how would he address his prayers as a born-again believer? Well, I imagine it would be as most Christians address their prayers, Abba, Father .[Prayer].. in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit always directs attention to the head of the body, Jesus Christ, and the Son directs the worship to the Father.

Can you now see how the two verses you quote can be understood within the context of the scriptures? In both cases, Jesus is already baptized of the Holy Spirit and involved in his ministry. He overcomes the temptations of the Devil by quoting scripture, as the true Word of God. He directs worship to the Father alone.

In the verse from Mark, we see that Jesus challenges his enquirer. He's saying, You know that only God is good; but do you see me as God, or do you see me as a man? If Jesus were only a man, then he would not be all good. But if he really is God incarnate, then he is good. Jesus, by asking his question, is actually challenging the man to make up his mind!
He does the same to you too, because he is asking you the same question about Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Are they really good? Can you say, unequivocally, that these men did not commit any sin in their lives?

The scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are very clear. ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But God is without sin.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Has Jesus become the stumbling block?
He challenges people to accept him wholly, or sink. As Jesus said, 'He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.' [Matthew 12:30]

And what 'modern scholarship' has suddenly undermined the tradition of the rabbis? It's quite clear that David is not talking in the third person. He would not say 'my Lord' about himself. If David wrote this Psalm then David is talking about another Lord, distinct from THE LORD! And as I have already made clear, David cannot even approach the throne of God because he is not without sin! So the Lord who is to sit at THE LORD'S right hand must be the Messiah.

The fact that Melchizadek was not created, or born, and had no beginning or ending, should make you realize that this was no ordinary mortal priest. He was the King of Jerusalem (Salem) and the chief priest in one. His two titles mean 'King of Righteousness' and 'King of Peace'. These are titles that only God owns. These are the titles given to the Messiah.

I am neither for Jesus nor against him. Both Jesus and I are for loving God and keeping our covenant. I do have problems with the religion that has falsely elevated Jesus, a human being, to Godhood. That's idolatry, and I am bound by my covenant and reminded by the Babylonian captivity to avoid idolatry at all costs. I think there is a possibility that Jesus came to believe that he was some kind of messiah, but this was a false belief--he died before doing he things the messiah is to do.

Why are you asking me to explain what I've already explained? If you want to grow as a Christian, do just a little research on textual criticism.

Let me reply to your claim that David cannot approach the throne of God unless he is without sin.

1. There is nothing in the Tanakh to support the idea that God will only abide perfection. Christians superimpose this belief onto the Hebrew texts.

2. The passage is figurative. It means that David is exalted by God and extremely close to him. God does not have a literal body, and therefore does not have a literal throne. These kind of anthropomorphisms are common in poetry and elsewhere in scripture.

3. Remember that to be right with the Lord, God wishes only for the "sacrifice" of a broken heart and contrite spirit. In that condition, David CAN, figuratively, walk right up to the throne of God and kiss him on the cheek.

 

[Trailblazer]

Allow me to focus on a couple of these issues.

Firstly, is it true that Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfil the prophecies of the Bible? Well, you are welcome to show me where in scripture they're to be found. Don't forget, Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken', so we should see an unbroken chain of references that connect these characters to the Bible.

I believe that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible but I do not know what verses refer to Him. A Bible scholar I am not... Prophecies that were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah are too numerous to list in a post. Most of them are covered in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears and Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

Secondly, the issue of whether Jesus Christ is worthy of worship. Do we see instances of the worship of Jesus Christ during his ministry and prior to his resurrection. I don't believe we do. And there is a very good reason for this. The Son of God is a mediator between mankind and God the Father. He is born of a woman, but receives the Holy Spirit at his Baptism. He then lives by the Spirit of God in the temple of his body. As the Son, He always directs worship to the Father.

As I said above, I am no Bible scholar, and that is an understatement. One thing that is not a Baha’i belief is that the Holy Spirit literally “lives inside” of anyone’s body. We believed that Jesus received the Holy Spirit His Baptism and it emanated from Him and reflected upon the Apostles. Below is a brief explanation of what we believe about the Holy Spirit.

Question. -- What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer. -- The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits -- that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 108​

Now, after the resurrection, we begin to see a change. Thomas is heard to say, My Lord and my God! Does Jesus say to him, Uhm, no that's not me! No! Jesus accepts the utterance without a word of reproof.

As you might know already, Baha’is do not believe that the body of Jesus rose from the grave but rather that the Cause of Christ was resurrected after three days when the disheartened disciples became assured and steadfast and arose to serve Jesus. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. That is explained in more detail in this short chapter: 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

But I am trying to understand the Christian view on this, not argue against it. So I guess what you are saying is that, as the gospel stories go in chronological order, after the resurrection Jesus became God whereas before he was a Servant of God? But the mere fact that Jesus accepted that utterance does not mean that He considered Himself to BE GOD. I mean that is not proof that He was God. As I think you said before God is Spirit so Jesus could not be God.

But Thomas has not yet received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. When he does, the picture changes again. Why? Because Thomas is now born-again of the same spirit as Christ and is part of the body of Christ. So how would he address his prayers as a born-again believer? Well, I imagine it would be as most Christians address their prayers, Abba, Father .[Prayer].. in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit always directs attention to the head of the body, Jesus Christ, and the Son directs the worship to the Father.

To address prayers to the Father (God) in the name of Jesus is kind of like a Baha’i who might address prayers to God in the name of (through) Bahaullah. All prayers are to God but we believe that the only connection to God that we have is through Baha’u’llah because He is the mediator just as Jesus is a mediator.

Can you now see how the two verses you quote can be understood within the context of the scriptures? In both cases, Jesus is already baptized of the Holy Spirit and involved in his ministry. He overcomes the temptations of the Devil by quoting scripture, as the true Word of God. He directs worship to the Father alone.

In the verse from Mark, we see that Jesus challenges his enquirer. He's saying, You know that only God is good; but do you see me as God, or do you see me as a man? If Jesus were only a man, then he would not be all good. But if he really is God incarnate, then he is good. Jesus, by asking his question, is actually challenging the man to make up his mind!

I can see why you might interpret it that way. A while back a Christian on this forum, Oeste, thought it meant that Jesus was saying He was not good, that only God is good. I told him I did not see it that way. Jesus could have meant that in relative terms, that compared to God He is not good, because he is not as good as God, but that does not mean Jesus was not good.

In brief, Baha’is believe that there are three different categories: human, Manifestation of God, and God. A Manifestation of God such as Jesus is kind of like a God-man in that He is not God or man but rather an ethereal being in between God and man, which is why He can mediate between God and man.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..” Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings​

But since you previously said that God is Spirit maybe you do not believe that the ineffable essence of God was ever perfectly and completely contained in the body of Jesus?

He does the same to you too, because he is asking you the same question about Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Are they really good? Can you say, unequivocally, that these men did not commit any sin in their lives?

As I think I said before, to you or someone in this forum, Baha’is believe that all the Manifestations of God were sinless because all of them abided by the Will of God and that cannot be a sin. For example, Moses murdered a man and we would consider that a sin, but in the eyes of God it was not a sin because of the circumstances.

Now I have a question: Do you believe that the Holy Spirit came to Moses at the Burning Bush?

The scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are very clear. ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But God is without sin.

That is true, but Baha’is believe in the third category which is not a man but rather a Manifestation of God, who is in a sense God because He is a mirror image of God and has the Attributes if God and perfectly represents the Will of God. What He does not have are these Attributes which are strictly confined to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, All-Wise, Omnipresent, All-Knowing, One in essence, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Immaterial.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Firstly, is it true that Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfil the prophecies of the Bible? Well, you are welcome to show me where in scripture they're to be found.

My friend, this is the same question that Jews have been asking Christians about Jesus for 2000 years (at least when it has been safe to do so) and so far, we haven't be given any sufficient answers.

 

[Trailblazer]

My friend, this is the same question that Jews have been asking Christians about Jesus for 2000 years (at least when it has been safe to do so) and so far, we haven't be given any sufficient answers.

With all due respect, no answers will ever be "sufficient" for people who believe that they are the only ones who can interpret their scriptures accurately because they are unwilling to look at any other possible interpretations that could be correct.

Jesus did fulfill some prophecies for the Messiah but not the ones for the Messianic Age because He was not that Messiah. Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom of God on earth (Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom), the One who came to prepare the way and announce it, He was not the One who will come to establish it. Jesus came to bear witness to the truth about God, not to establish a Kingdom on earth where He would rule forever, as Christians believe.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

Moreover, there is no reason for Christians to believe that Jesus would return someday and establish that Kingdom. Verses in the New Testament do refer to a Kingdom being established on earth, but they do not refer to Jesus as the One who would establish it. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. How much clearer could Jesus be?

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

 

[wizanda]

With all due respect

With all due respects, having shown that the Gospel of John is fraudulent, means we can't then use it to show the prophets are not true; just so we can replace it with an alternate text entirely.

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible but I do not know what verses refer to Him. A Bible scholar I am not... Prophecies that were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah are too numerous to list in a post. Most of them are covered in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears and Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

As I said above, I am no Bible scholar, and that is an understatement. One thing that is not a Baha’i belief is that the Holy Spirit literally “lives inside” of anyone’s body. We believed that Jesus received the Holy Spirit His Baptism and it emanated from Him and reflected upon the Apostles. Below is a brief explanation of what we believe about the Holy Spirit.

Question. -- What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer. -- The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits -- that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 108​

As you might know already, Baha’is do not believe that the body of Jesus rose from the grave but rather that the Cause of Christ was resurrected after three days when the disheartened disciples became assured and steadfast and arose to serve Jesus. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. That is explained in more detail in this short chapter: 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

But I am trying to understand the Christian view on this, not argue against it. So I guess what you are saying is that, as the gospel stories go in chronological order, after the resurrection Jesus became God whereas before he was a Servant of God? But the mere fact that Jesus accepted that utterance does not mean that He considered Himself to BE GOD. I mean that is not proof that He was God. As I think you said before God is Spirit so Jesus could not be God.

To address prayers to the Father (God) in the name of Jesus is kind of like a Baha’i who might address prayers to God in the name of (through) Bahaullah. All prayers are to God but we believe that the only connection to God that we have is through Baha’u’llah because He is the mediator just as Jesus is a mediator.

I can see why you might interpret it that way. A while back a Christian on this forum, Oeste, thought it meant that Jesus was saying He was not good, that only God is good. I told him I did not see it that way. Jesus could have meant that in relative terms, that compared to God He is not good, because he is not as good as God, but that does not mean Jesus was not good.

In brief, Baha’is believe that there are three different categories: human, Manifestation of God, and God. A Manifestation of God such as Jesus is kind of like a God-man in that He is not God or man but rather an ethereal being in between God and man, which is why He can mediate between God and man.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..” Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings​

But since you previously said that God is Spirit maybe you do not believe that the ineffable essence of God was ever perfectly and completely contained in the body of Jesus?

As I think I said before, to you or someone in this forum, Baha’is believe that all the Manifestations of God were sinless because all of them abided by the Will of God and that cannot be a sin. For example, Moses murdered a man and we would consider that a sin, but in the eyes of God it was not a sin because of the circumstances.

Now I have a question: Do you believe that the Holy Spirit came to Moses at the Burning Bush?

That is true, but Baha’is believe in the third category which is not a man but rather a Manifestation of God, who is in a sense God because He is a mirror image of God and has the Attributes if God and perfectly represents the Will of God. What He does not have are these Attributes which are strictly confined to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, All-Wise, Omnipresent, All-Knowing, One in essence, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Immaterial.

My answer to your question about Moses and the Holy Spirit is that God is Holy Spirit, and it was the Lord that brought the fire in the bush. I would also go so far as to say that this is Christ, the Lord who appears as an angel. [See Genesis 18:1]

In Exodus 6:2,3 it says, 'And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I known to them.'

It's interesting to read the list of attributes that you believe only apply to God. So to whom would you apply the attributes of creation, salvation and judgment?

Amongst the list of attributes of God, you have listed holiness. Is holiness not perfect goodness? And is not perfect goodness also sinlessness? So where do the Manifestations of God stand in relation to sin? Either they have sinned, or they have not. Now, from the histories of Muhammad that I have read, it seems IMPOSSIBLE that he could NOT have sinned. I am less familiar with the life of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

With all due respects, having shown that the Gospel of John is fraudulent, means we can't then use it to show the prophets are not true; just so we can replace it with an alternate text entirely.

In my opinion.

With all due respect, in your opinion you have shown that the Gospel of John is fraudulent, but that does not mean that it is fraudulent. It has not been determined to be so by any Bible scholars, otherwise it would have been thrown out long, long ago...
I do not see how the Gospel of John shows that the prophets are not true.