How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you in Judaism believe that the dreams and visions of the Prophets are completely accurate?

It depends on which Jew you ask. And Orthodox Jew would say of course. A Reform Jew would take a much less literal approach, or simply see the words of the prophet as part of our national heritage. Some Jews are not religious at all.

If they are not Prophets, then what do you consider them as? I see that below you said that Abraham was your Patriarch. What do you mean by that?

When we say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the Patriarchs, we mean that they are the Fathers of the Jewish people. They are not priests, sages, rabbis, prophets, or kings.

Thank you for explaining the Baha'i concept of Manifestation.

 

[Trailblazer]

What 'Dying for Our Sins' highlights is a fundamental difference between the Baha'i and Christian faiths. Where does the truth lie?

Psalm 89:48. 'What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

2 Samuel 14:14. 'For we must needs die, and as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.'

The Word is clear, 'For we must needs die'; and the reason is given in Genesis.
'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.' [Gen.2:17]

Adam and Eve transgressed God's law by eating of the forbidden fruit. They both died. And all their descendants die.

'In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.'

There is no indication that Adam or Eve would have died had they not sinned. Sin leads to death.

We all must die because we have PHYSICAL BODIES and all physical bodies eventually wear out and die. Science demonstrates why that happens.

You might say, But I don't believe in Original Sin. Well, do you believe that all men die? For the evidence of original sin is death. I see it all around me! All men are sinners, and the evidence is death.

The evidence of sin is spiritual death. Sin has nothing to do with physical death.

Baha’is do not believe in the resurrection of bodies from graves or that anyone will live forever on earth in physical bodies. We believe that after the physical body dies it remains dead and the soul takes flight to a spiritual world. That is another realm of existence, the next stage in the human journey towards God.

I do not interpret the Garden of Eden story the way Christians do. I do not believe in Original Sin. This short chapter explains what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Yes, God has us living on earth for a time, but not forever. This world is connected to the spiritual world in ways we cannot now understand, but those who have passed beyond the veil do understand. We were never meant to live in a physical world for eternity.

I believe the following verses are referring to a spiritual resurrection, rising to spiritual life, not to physical life.

John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”​

Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus about spiritual life and spiritual death. Being "born again" refers to spiritual rebirth.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

When the Jews failed to recognize Jesus when He came down from the heaven of the Will of God and was born from the womb of Mary, they remained spiritually dead. That is why Jesus said He was the resurrection, because He resurrected the Cause of God from what it had formerly been in the days of Moses.

Did Baha'u'llah die? Yes. Somewhere there is a grave with his bones in.
Did Muhammad die? Yes. Somewhere there is a grave with his bones in.
Did Jesus die? Yes. Will you find his bones? No. He is the firstfruits of the harvest, and as yet no one else has been resurrected to eternal life.

Jesus did not need to be resurrected to eternal life because Jesus is the One who bestowed eternal life. Those who believed in Jesus had eternal life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. ​

Anyone who believed in Jesus resurrected to eternal life, which is a quality of life of a soul that is close to God. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the physical bodies coming back to life.

The first resurrection takes place at the time of His return.
I Corinthians 15:23. 'But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.'

1Cor 15 does not have the resurrected Jesus with a body. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Some Christians believe that Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection and that is what Baha’is also believe. http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins... People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected).

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s Cause was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies.

16 For if the dead rise not and 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead refers to Christ’s spiritual resurrection, not to anyone rising from graves

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222​

Did Jesus ascend bodily to heaven? Yes. But read the scriptures and you will see that it was in a transformed body. It was no longer mortal but immortal. No longer corruptible, but changed into an incorruptible body.

1 Corinthians 15:42. 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:'

Yes, the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven bodily and got a new body, but it was not a physical body, it was a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. It may well have looked just like His physical body but it was not physical because physical bodies cannot exist anywhere except a physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, it is a spiritual world. If Jesus came back down and appeared to the disciples He appeared in a spiritual body that could have looked just like His physical body.

There is no question that Jesus' body had changed after resurrection from the dead. He appears and disappears at will. [See Luke 24:31]

Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

That is not evidence that Jesus had a physical body that was incorruptible. It is most likely evidence that Jesus has a spiritual body that had ascended to heaven and returned from heaven to appear to the disciples and restore their faith in him that He was still alive. Either that or it was just a story that was symbolic and never literally happened.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ​

That verse does not prove that the body of Jesus rose from the grave, because there are other explanations as to what it means. Jesus could easily have made Himself appear to the disciples like flesh and bones. Jesus had a spiritual body assigned to Him in heaven so He could have returned to earth in that spiritual body to reassure the disciples. Another explanation is that the resurrection story is just a story that has symbolic meaning and it never happened at all the way it was written.

 

[Redemptionsong]

We all must die because we have PHYSICAL BODIES and all physical bodies eventually wear out and die. Science demonstrates why that happens.

The evidence of sin is spiritual death. Sin has nothing to do with physical death.

Baha’is do not believe in the resurrection of bodies from graves or that anyone will live forever on earth in physical bodies. We believe that after the physical body dies it remains dead and the soul takes flight to a spiritual world. That is another realm of existence, the next stage in the human journey towards God.

I do not interpret the Garden of Eden story the way Christians do. I do not believe in Original Sin. This short chapter explains what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Yes, God has us living on earth for a time, but not forever. This world is connected to the spiritual world in ways we cannot now understand, but those who have passed beyond the veil do understand. We were never meant to live in a physical world for eternity.

I believe the following verses are referring to a spiritual resurrection, rising to spiritual life, not to physical life.

John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”​

Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus about spiritual life and spiritual death. Being "born again" refers to spiritual rebirth.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

When the Jews failed to recognize Jesus when He came down from the heaven of the Will of God and was born from the womb of Mary, they remained spiritually dead. That is why Jesus said He was the resurrection, because He resurrected the Cause of God from what it had formerly been in the days of Moses.

Jesus did not need to be resurrected to eternal life because Jesus is the One who bestowed eternal life. Those who believed in Jesus had eternal life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. ​

Anyone who believed in Jesus resurrected to eternal life, which is a quality of life of a soul that is close to God. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the physical bodies coming back to life.

1Cor 15 does not have the resurrected Jesus with a body. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Some Christians believe that Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection and that is what Baha’is also believe. http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins... People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected).

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s Cause was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies.

16 For if the dead rise not and 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead refers to Christ’s spiritual resurrection, not to anyone rising from graves

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222​

Yes, the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven bodily and got a new body, but it was not a physical body, it was a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. It may well have looked just like His physical body but it was not physical because physical bodies cannot exist anywhere except a physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, it is a spiritual world. If Jesus came back down and appeared to the disciples He appeared in a spiritual body that could have looked just like His physical body.

Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

That is not evidence that Jesus had a physical body that was incorruptible. It is most likely evidence that Jesus has a spiritual body that had ascended to heaven and returned from heaven to appear to the disciples and restore their faith in him that He was still alive. Either that or it was just a story that was symbolic and never literally happened.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ​

That verse does not prove that the body of Jesus rose from the grave, because there are other explanations as to what it means. Jesus could easily have made Himself appear to the disciples like flesh and bones. Jesus had a spiritual body assigned to Him in heaven so He could have returned to earth in that spiritual body to reassure the disciples. Another explanation is that the resurrection story is just a story that has symbolic meaning and it never happened at all the way it was written.

Trailblazer, you're full of great theories, but let's see what scripture tells us!

According to the scriptures the whole man is subject to death. The whole man consists of body, soul and spirit [1Thessalonians 5:23]. Therefore all three parts are subject to death, just as God warned in Genesis 2:17. God didn't say, You'll die spiritually only. What we see is an immediate spiritual separation, followed by a death of body and soul in God's day (a thousand year day). The body returns to the dust, and the soul descends into Sheol, the grave.
In the grave, certainly from the time of Christ onwards, there appears to be a separation of faithful and unfaithful (Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). Those of faith (saints) reside in the bosom of Abraham.
Now look again at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15.
'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.'
Paul clearly states that 'we shall be changed'. This is a reference to our own body/soul being changed. It is not possible to ascend to heaven in a physical body, as you say, but we must put on incorruption. Jesus intimates this to Mary after his resurrection, when he says to her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:' [John 20:17]
Tell me, is it possible for bodies to be raised from their graves? If it is not, how do you explain Matthew 27:51-53? 'And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' This was not the first resurrection, therefore it must have been a demonstration of what would happen. It must therefore have been of a temporary nature only, but it showed that bodies could be raised from the dead!

So, sin has everything to do with physical death. SIN affects us BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rejecting Jesus was never the reason for the diaspora in the first place. It was our sinat chinam, groundless hatred of one another. This broke a pivotal commandment, Do not hate your brother in your heart, Leviticus19:17. In fact, a big reason why the Jews lost the war was because the two Jewish generals were at each others throats. Jews were literally killing each other. The temple will be rebuilt when we have finally learned ahavat chinam, to love without cause. The story of Kamtza and bar Kamtza is the symbol of Jews' hatred of one another. You can read the story here: Kamtza and Bar Kamtza - The Story of Tisha B’Av

Sure there will be a terrible war in the final days, but I'm not worried about it at this time. Compared to a thousand years ago, or even 200 years ago, heck even 100 years ago, there just isn't the kind of international war there once was. Things aren't perfect, but the truth is that we live in a relatively peaceful time.

Like I already said, I think we are back in God's graces because we have returned to the land, and have triumphed over the overwhelming forces of our enemies, which looks kind of miraculous.

I hope for your sakes that you are right!
Hosea 6:3. 'Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.'

The LORD will come unto YOU, as a blessing like the rains, not once, but twice. He will come as the latter and former rain.

Deuteronomy 11:14. 'That I will give you the rain in your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.'

I understand this to be saying that the LORD will come to you in your land in due season. He will come twice, once as the former rain, and once as the latter rain. The blessings, however, are conditional on one thing; on YOU KNOWING THE LORD.

How can you know the LORD if you do not recognize his countenance or face? You seem to deny that the LORD can come to earth. If you do not recognize the Angel of the Lord as the face of God, then how are you to recognize his coming?

When the Messiah does appear, how are you going to recognize him?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus did not need to be resurrected to eternal life because Jesus is the One who bestowed eternal life. Those who believed in Jesus had eternal life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Clearly Jesus DID need to be resurrected to eternal life. All four Gospels, and other books besides, provide us with the witness to his crucifixion and resurrection!

What you have to remember is that Jesus was born of a woman, a little lower than the angels. He lived the first 30 years of his life under the law of Moses, righteously.

At about 30, Jesus was baptized, and lived the next three and a half years under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He was then put to death on the cross, and needed to be resurrected, body and soul, from the dead. His soul was alive in Sheol, the grave, for three days, where he preached to the departed souls, so that no one can claim ignorance. [See story of Jonah]

At the time of his crucifixion, when he took sin upon himself, the Spirit of God deserted him, which is why he cried, 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?' [Psalm 22]. This demonstrates that a Holy God cannot abide sin.

The Holy Spirit that left him at the time he bore our sin, was the Spirit of God that raised him up three days and nights later!

It's all one God! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But the name Jesus was an appellation given to the baby boy at birth.

[Clearly, God's Son is pre-existent and eternal, but Mary's son is born and dies. He therefore needs to be resurrected from the dead. This teaches us that Jesus must have been both the Son of Man, and the Son of God.]

Matthew 1:21. 'And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'
Matthew 1:25. 'And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.'

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, you're full of great theories, but let's see what scripture tells us!

According to the scriptures the whole man is subject to death. The whole man consists of body, soul and spirit [1Thessalonians 5:23]. Therefore all three parts are subject to death, just as God warned in Genesis 2:17. God didn't say, You'll die spiritually only. What we see is an immediate spiritual separation, followed by a death of body and soul in God's day (a thousand year day). The body returns to the dust, and the soul descends into Sheol, the grave.
In the grave, certainly from the time of Christ onwards, there appears to be a separation of faithful and unfaithful (Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). Those of faith (saints) reside in the bosom of Abraham.
Now look again at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15.
'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.'
Paul clearly states that 'we shall be changed'. This is a reference to our own body/soul being changed. It is not possible to ascend to heaven in a physical body, as you say, but we must put on incorruption. Jesus intimates this to Mary after his resurrection, when he says to her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:' [John 20:17]
Tell me, is it possible for bodies to be raised from their graves? If it is not, how do you explain Matthew 27:51-53? 'And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' This was not the first resurrection, therefore it must have been a demonstration of what would happen. It must therefore have been of a temporary nature only, but it showed that bodies could be raised from the dead!

You are interpreting scripture literally that was never intended to be interpreted literally. Raised from the grave means rising out of the grave of spiritual ignorance, asleep means unaware of our spiritual nature. Putting on incorruption means to not be corrupted by the physical desires but rather to be attracted to the spiritual graces. Jesus focused on the spirit, never on the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.​

Corruption has nothing to do with corruption of the physical body; it is all about the soul. This is all symbolic of the spiritually dead being born again. Why is it that Christians believe being born again refers to the second birth, when you come to believe in Jesus and then you do an about face and believe that death is related to a physical body as opposed to a spiritual death. This is incongruent.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

Where did Jesus EVER talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the body. It means spiritual rebirth.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
​

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

So, sin has everything to do with physical death. SIN affects us BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT!

Sin has nothing to do with physical death, only spiritual death. Sin affects the body because the soul operates through the body while we are alive in the physical body, and the physical body commits the sin. However the body is of no real import, it is just the vehicle that houses the soul while we live on earth. When the body dies it decomposes and the soul wings its flight to the spiritual world and takes on a spiritual body that will never die. In that sense our new body will be incorruptible, but it will not be physical.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly Jesus DID need to be resurrected to eternal life. All four Gospels, and other books besides, provide us with the witness to his crucifixion and resurrection!

What you have to remember is that Jesus was born of a woman, a little lower than the angels. He lived the first 30 years of his life under the law of Moses, righteously.

At about 30, Jesus was baptized, and lived the next three and a half years under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He was then put to death on the cross, and needed to be resurrected, body and soul, from the dead. His soul was alive in Sheol, the grave, for three days, where he preached to the departed souls, so that no one can claim ignorance. [See story of Jonah]

The cross is where it ended. On the cross, Jesus said "It is finished." Jesus died on the cross and the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven where He was at the Right Hand of God. The resurrection was just a story that was told much later.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death:

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3

3. John Shelby Spong, "The Easter Moment: What Really Happened? Is the literal claim of Easter still believable? Can Christianity afford to debate its originating moment?," at: http://www.beliefnet.com/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm​

[Clearly, God's Son is pre-existent and eternal, but Mary's son is born and dies. He therefore needs to be resurrected from the dead. This teaches us that Jesus must have been both the Son of Man, and the Son of God.]

Matthew 1:21. 'And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'
Matthew 1:25. 'And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.'

There was only one Son. He had a physical body and a rational soul and He brought the Holy Spirit:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152​

The soul of Jesus was pre-existent and eternal, but His body was mortal. All bodies die and their souls go to the spiritual world, heaven. There is no need for any body to be resurrected from the dead.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You are interpreting scripture literally that was never intended to be interpreted literally. Raised from the grave means rising out of the grave of spiritual ignorance, asleep means unaware of our spiritual nature. Putting on incorruption means to not be corrupted by the physical desires but rather to be attracted to the spiritual graces. Jesus focused on the spirit, never on the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.​

Corruption has nothing to do with corruption of the physical body; it is all about the soul. This is all symbolic of the spiritually dead being born again. Why is it that Christians believe being born again refers to the second birth, when you come to believe in Jesus and then you do an about face and believe that death is related to a physical body as opposed to a spiritual death. This is incongruent.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

Where did Jesus EVER talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the body. It means spiritual rebirth.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
​

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).


Sin has nothing to do with physical death, only spiritual death. Sin affects the body because the soul operates through the body while we are alive in the physical body, and the physical body commits the sin. However the body is of no real import, it is just the vehicle that houses the soul while we live on earth. When the body dies it decomposes and the soul wings its flight to the spiritual world and takes on a spiritual body that will never die. In that sense our new body will be incorruptible, but it will not be physical.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

What you're stating is a partial truth.

There is no question that 'flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit' and that the two are not the same. Flesh is mortal and corruptible, and the spirit is immortal and incorruptible.

The soul is what defines each of us as a person, and at death the soul descends into Sheol, the grave. The soul awaits the day of resurrection, when it is reunited with an incorruptible, spiritual body. This spiritual body is the same natural body made incorruptible at the trumpet call of Christ's return. [1 Corinthians 15:52]

You say that sin has nothing to do with physical death, but this is not scriptural. It distorts scripture and ultimately turns truth into deception. It leads people to think that the physical body is totally unimportant, when scripture does not teach this. In your physical body you can walk by the spirit, in Christ, or you can walk by the flesh, in opposition to Christ.

This is what the scripture says, 'Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him, and to every seed his own body.'
Verse 44 'It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.'

This is why Paul says, 'What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.'

The earthly body is at present corruptible because it decays and dies. It decays and dies because of sin. So corruption is the direct result of sin. What makes the body incorruptible is when sin no longer has a hold on it. 'Resurrection life' begins here on earth, but it doesn't find it's completion until the first resurrection from the dead. Just as Adam died spiritually first, then he died soul and body, so Christ brings a new spirit first, then resurrection of body and soul at the first resurrection.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The cross is where it ended. On the cross, Jesus said "It is finished." Jesus died on the cross and the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven where He was at the Right Hand of God. The resurrection was just a story that was told much later.

The soul of Jesus was pre-existent and eternal, but His body was mortal. All bodies die and their souls go to the spiritual world, heaven. There is no need for any body to be resurrected from the dead.

Once again, this is only a partial truth, and does not fit with scripture.
Scripture tells us that the souls of the dead descend into the grave [Sheol].

Psalm 89:48. 'What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.'

The soul of Jesus descended into the grave following his death on the cross.
Matthew 12:40. 'For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'
Jesus again refers to the 'sign of the prophet Jonas' in Matthew 16:4.
If we then look at the book of Jonah, we discover that Jonah died and his soul descended into 'hell' [SHEOL - the grave]. [Jonah 2:2]
In verse 6, we also learn that the death of his body, and the descent of his soul into the grave, is described as 'corruption'. Then Jonah says, 'yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

 

[Trailblazer]

What you're stating is a partial truth.

There is no question that 'flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit' and that the two are not the same. Flesh is mortal and corruptible, and the spirit is immortal and incorruptible.

The soul is what defines each of us as a person, and at death the soul descends into Sheol, the grave. The soul awaits the day of resurrection, when it is reunited with an incorruptible, spiritual body. This spiritual body is the same natural body made incorruptible at the trumpet call of Christ's return. [1 Corinthians 15:52]

What you're stating is a partial truth. The soul awaits the day of resurrection, the trumpet call of Christ’s return, but the trumpet blast has already been sounded.

The Great Resurrection
​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222​

You say that sin has nothing to do with physical death, but this is not scriptural.

No, I am not saying that. I am only saying that physical bodies once dead to not rise from graves and become reconstituted in another physical body that is somehow glorified and incorruptible. This misunderstanding came about as the result of the “belief” that this is what happened to Jesus when he rose from the dead, so Christians believe it will happen to those who believe in Jesus when Jesus returns. Imo, this is based upon a serious misinterpretation of scripture.

It distorts scripture and ultimately turns truth into deception. It leads people to think that the physical body is totally unimportant, when scripture does not teach this. In your physical body you can walk by the spirit, in Christ, or you can walk by the flesh, in opposition to Christ.

This is what the scripture says, 'Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him, and to every seed his own body.'
Verse 44 'It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.'

This is why Paul says, 'What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.'

To be clear, the physical body is important while we live on earth in a physical body, because without a physical body the soul has NO WAY to express itself. Baha’is believe that the body is the temple of the soul. But all physical bodies were destined to wear out and die. This is based upon science and that which contradicts science is superstition. So this belief that the only reason physical bodies die is because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden is superstition. That story was meant to be interpreted symbolically, not literally.

The earthly body is at present corruptible because it decays and dies. It decays and dies because of sin. So corruption is the direct result of sin. What makes the body incorruptible is when sin no longer has a hold on it.

No, the physical body decays and dies because it was not created by God to live forever. Only the soul is eternal, not the physical body.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156​

 

[Trailblazer]

Once again, this is only a partial truth, and does not fit with scripture.
Scripture tells us that the souls of the dead descend into the grave [Sheol].

Psalm 89:48. 'What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.'

The soul of Jesus descended into the grave following his death on the cross.
Matthew 12:40. 'For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'
Jesus again refers to the 'sign of the prophet Jonas' in Matthew 16:4.
If we then look at the book of Jonah, we discover that Jonah died and his soul descended into 'hell' [SHEOL - the grave]. [Jonah 2:2]
In verse 6, we also learn that the death of his body, and the descent of his soul into the grave, is described as 'corruption'. Then Jonah says, 'yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

Once again, it is all a matter of how you interpret scripture. I do not interpret it to mean what you interpret it to mean. Differences in interpretation are why Jews and Christians disagree and why Christians are divided.

The Bible requires accurate interpretation to be fully understood. The Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

The Baha’i Faith is the religion that knows what the Bible really means because the "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

Nobody could know the mysteries hidden in the scriptures except a Representative of God. There was no Representative of God to interpret the scripture until the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah at the time of the end.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

 

[Redemptionsong]

What you're stating is a partial truth. The soul awaits the day of resurrection, the trumpet call of Christ’s return, but the trumpet blast has already been sounded.

The Great Resurrection
The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.

Where does scripture say that the trumpet has already sounded?
You may notice that Paul says, 'we SHALL all be', 'the trumpet SHALL sound', 'the dead SHALL be raised', and 'we SHALL be changed'. This is all FUTURE tense. Yet you're suggesting that it has already happened.

One of the fundamental lessons of Bible exegesis is that you need NOT look beyond the scriptures for the confirmation and evidence. It's a great dishonouring of God that you think His Word requires your additions. But the fact is, you ARE relying on external evidence to support your theory. As far as I can see, Baha'u'llah never gets a mention, certainly not as the Comforter, or Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is a gift sent by the Father and the Son in order that the body of Christ (those who repent and place their faith in the risen Christ) might be made one with its head, Christ Jesus.

Maybe we should look more carefully at what scripture has to say about the Comforter, or Holy Spirit.

 

[Redemptionsong]

To a Baha’i, the Comforter is a word that refers to a Manifestation of God who would bring the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter as noted in John 14:16. Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Comforter and I would not be a Baha’i if I did not believe that He was who He claimed to be.

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

Here is the fuller context of John 14.

John 14:16 -18, 'And I [Jesus Christ] will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he [the Comforter] may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it [the world] seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [the Comforter] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I [Jesus Christ] will not leave you comfortless: I [Jesus Christ] will come to you.'

Jesus says that he will pray to the Father, who will give ANOTHER COMFORTER. So who is the first Comforter? He that 'dwelleth with you' is clearly Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who 'will not leave you comfortless'. Jesus Christ says, 'I will come to you.' So both COMFORTERS must be ONE AND THE SAME Christ, or Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the COMFORTER.

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatever I have said to you.'

It cannot be expressed more clearly. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

Here the scripture states explicitly that the Comforter is the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. Was Baha'u'llah God? Can Baha'u'llah 'come unto you' and 'be in you'?

John 15:26. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

Does Baha'u'llah come 'from the Father'? Do you realise that this means that Baha'u'llah would be God?

John 16:7-11. 'Nevertheless, I [Jesus Christ] tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

THEN, when you look further on in the scriptures, you find the fulfilment of the promise made by Jesus. You don't have to go finding a character that you think might fit!

Acts 2:33. 'Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.'
[The whole of Acts chapter 2 tells us about the day of Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit.]

So where is Muhammad? Where is Baha'u'llah? NOWHERE!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Or maybe in the grave.....

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I hope for your sakes that you are right!
Hosea 6:3. 'Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.'

The LORD will come unto YOU, as a blessing like the rains, not once, but twice. He will come as the latter and former rain.

Deuteronomy 11:14. 'That I will give you the rain in your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.'

I understand this to be saying that the LORD will come to you in your land in due season. He will come twice, once as the former rain, and once as the latter rain. The blessings, however, are conditional on one thing; on YOU KNOWING THE LORD.

How can you know the LORD if you do not recognize his countenance or face? You seem to deny that the LORD can come to earth. If you do not recognize the Angel of the Lord as the face of God, then how are you to recognize his coming?

When the Messiah does appear, how are you going to recognize him?

Thus opens a new and equally engaging discussion. You are a very interesting person, and I enjoy our intellectual discussions.

The promise of rain and good harvests aka material prosperity in the Torah is conditional of keeping the Torah as a people. Let's face it, there are many dirt poor Jews, but Jews disproportionately represent the top 10% richest in the world, and the Orthodox are more well off than most Jews (although some would say that if you aren't rich enough to be Orthodox, you switch to another denomination LOL).

Leviticus 26:3-4If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.
​

I have already answered these questions about the messiah. I feel a little insulted. If you repeatedly typed the same information and I were to repeatedly ask you for it, IOW if I appeared not to read your posts, wouldn't you feel insulted? I will give it to you yet again, but I am not happy with you at this time.

• The messiah is not central, but a fringe thing to Judaism. The messianic age will happen way in the future, and the messiah is simply the King that will rule during that time. Prophecies about the messianic age don't affect our lives here and now, so they are relatively unimportant. It's just nice to know that an age of peace and justice will come The Chabadniks are the only ones who think the messiah has come (the Rebbe). They are tolerated because they don't have unacceptable beliefs like the Rebbe being God. (Also they are extremely kind and helpful people, and I love them to death.)
• No one has fulfilled the requirements of the messiah, including Jesus. Not all Jews believe in the messiah. Keep in mind that messiah means anointing, so technically there have been many messiahs, such as David. But we are talking about the messiah prophesied to rule at the end of time. We WILL recognize this messiah, because he will fulfill the messianic prophesies:

1. He will bring back all the Jews to the promised Land.
2. He will physically rule from David's throne.
3. He will bring literal world wide peace.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

oops

 

[Trailblazer]

Where does scripture say that the trumpet has already sounded?

Think about it. Why would the Bible scripture say that the trumpet has already sounded given that it had not sounded when the Bible was written? The New Testament was a completed canon by the second century. Jesus had not returned at that time.

You may notice that Paul says, 'we SHALL all be', 'the trumpet SHALL sound', 'the dead SHALL be raised', and 'we SHALL be changed'. This is all FUTURE tense. Yet you're suggesting that it has already happened.

True, it was in the future at the time the New Testament was written, but we are now living in the future. Actually, the first trumpet blast was Muhammad, the second trumpet blast was Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah addressing humanity...

“All glory be to this Day, the Day in which the fragrances of mercy have been wafted over all created things, a Day so blest that past ages and centuries can never hope to rival it, a Day in which the countenance of the Ancient of Days hath turned towards His holy seat. Thereupon the voices of all created things, and beyond them those of the Concourse on high, were heard calling aloud: “Haste thee, O Carmel, for lo, the light of the countenance of God, the Ruler of the Kingdom of Names and Fashioner of the heavens, hath been lifted upon thee.”....​

Baha’u’llah addressing God...

“All praise be to Thee for having enabled me to hearken to Thy call, for having honored me with Thy footsteps, and for having quickened my soul through the vitalizing fragrance of Thy Day and the shrilling voice of Thy Pen, a voice Thou didst ordain as Thy trumpet-call amidst Thy people. And when the hour at which Thy resistless Faith was to be made manifest did strike, Thou didst breathe a breath of Thy spirit into Thy Pen, and lo, the entire creation shook to its very foundations, unveiling to mankind such mysteries as lay hidden within the treasuries of Him Who is the Possessor of all created things.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 14-15​

Baha’u’llah addressing humanity, referring to Himself as a Manifestation of God...

“Say: He it is Who is the Manifestation of Him Who is the Unknowable, the Invisible of the Invisibles, could ye but perceive it. He it is Who hath laid bare before you the hidden and treasured Gem, were ye to seek it. He it is Who is the one Beloved of all things, whether of the past or of the future. Would that ye might set your hearts and hopes upon Him!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 30​

God speaking to Baha’u’llah...

“Arise, and proclaim unto the entire creation the tidings that He Who is the All-Merciful hath directed His steps towards the Riḍván and entered it. Guide, then, the people unto the garden of delight which God hath made the Throne of His Paradise. We have chosen thee to be our most mighty Trumpet, whose blast is to signalize the resurrection of all mankind.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 31​

Baha’u’llah addressing humanity...

“By Him Who is the Great Announcement! The All-Merciful is come invested with undoubted sovereignty. The Balance hath been appointed, and all them that dwell on earth have been gathered together. The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 40​

“The thing that must come hath come suddenly; behold how they flee from it! The inevitable hath come to pass; witness how they have cast it behind their backs! This is the Day whereon every man will fly from himself, how much more from his kindred, could ye but perceive it. Say: By God! The blast hath been blown on the trumpet, and lo, mankind hath swooned away before us! The Herald hath cried out, and the Summoner raised His voice saying: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Most Powerful, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 43-44
​

The first blast on the trumpet was Muhammad.... The second blast on the trumpet was Baha’u’llah, who was the most mighty Trumpet, whose blast was to signalize the resurrection of all mankind.

“Say: Perused ye not the Qur’án? Read it, that haply ye may find the Truth, for this Book is verily the Straight Path. This is the Way of God unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. If ye have been careless of the Qur’án, the Bayán cannot be regarded to be remote from you. Behold it open before your eyes. Read ye its verses, that perchance ye desist from committing that which will cause the Messengers of God to mourn and lament.“
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 44

“Speed out of your sepulchers. How long will ye sleep? The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. Witness how ye gainsay His signs! The earth hath quaked with a great quaking, and cast forth her burdens. Will ye not admit it? Say: Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool, how the people are sore vexed at the awful majesty of the Cause of God? Witness how their houses are empty ruins, and they themselves a drowned host."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 44-45​

This concurs with the three woes in the Book of Revelation:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” 22 The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” 23

Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” 24
Some Answered Questions, p. 56

From the chapter 11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN​

One of the fundamental lessons of Bible exegesis is that you need NOT look beyond the scriptures for the confirmation and evidence. It's a great slight on God that you think His word requires your additions.

The Holy Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are not additions to the Holy Bible. They are “new revelations” from God. They do not replace the Bible. Addressing the Muslims who said that the Bible had been corrupted, Baha’u’llah wrote that the Bible is “God’s greatest testimony to His creatures.”

It is a great slight on God for you to reject God if He has spoken again, as well as rejecting the Return of Christ, your Savior. Indeed, it was a great slight when you rejected Muhammad, the second Trumpet blast, but it is a much greater slight to reject Baha’u’llah who came in the Glory of the Father. You are able to see how the Jews erred when they rejected Jesus; it is no different when you reject Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

There is so much evidence that shows that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ, enough to sink a ship, but it is of no avail if you are not willing to look at it. That evidence is in your own Bible, all the prophecies that have been fulfilled. The evidence is also in everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, from 1844 until the present time.

But the fact is, you ARE relying on external evidence to support your theory. As far as I can see, Baha'u'llah never gets a mention, certainly not as the Comforter, or Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is a gift sent by the Father and the Son in order that the body of Christ (those who repent and place their faith in the risen Christ) might be made one with its head, Christ Jesus.

That is just your interpretation, which is also the interpretation of the Church, but that does not make it fully correct. Your interpretation is partly correct, because he Holy Spirit is a gift sent by the Father and the Son. The questions then become – HOW was it sent, and WHO was it sent to and WHEN was it sent?

Baha’u’llah is mentioned throughout the OT and the NT. His actual name was in Arabic Bibles, until they were pulled from circulation in 1870. Whenever the Glory of God is mentioned in the context of the Messiah, it is referring to Baha’u’llah, just as the title Son of God is referring to Jesus.

Maybe we should look more carefully at what scripture has to say about the Comforter, or Holy Spirit.

By all means, let’s do that. A lot is hanging in the balance.

Since I was never a Christian and I do not know the Bible like you do, so I always learn a lot by talking to Christians. I can also understand that it is not that easy for Christians to understand the Baha’i Faith and exactly what we are claiming, but I am more than happy to explain that as long as we can have a respectful dialogue.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is the fuller context of John 14.

John 14:16 -18, 'And I [Jesus Christ] will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he [the Comforter] may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it [the world] seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [the Comforter] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I [Jesus Christ] will not leave you comfortless: I [Jesus Christ] will come to you.'

Jesus says that he will pray to the Father, who will give ANOTHER COMFORTER. So who is the first Comforter? He that 'dwelleth with you' is clearly Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who 'will not leave you comfortless'. Jesus Christ says, 'I will come to you.' So both COMFORTERS must be ONE AND THE SAME Christ, or Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.
The Holy Spirit is the COMFORTER.

You are partly correct, but you are not fully correct....

Jesus was the Comforter, which means that the Holy Spirit was not the Comforter, since Jesus was not the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanates from God. God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and Jesus brought the Holy Spirit (Bounty of God) to all of humanity. Jesus was called the Comforter because the Bounty of God is Comforting.

Jesus said He will send ANOTHER COMFORTER so that has to refer to another Person who brings the Bounty of God to humanity, someone other than Jesus.

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatever I have said to you.'

It cannot be expressed more clearly. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

Here the scripture states explicitly that the Comforter is the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. Was Baha'u'llah God? Can Baha'u'llah 'come unto you' and 'be in you'?

The Comforter was sent when God sent Jesus who brought the Holy Spirit, and that is why the verse reads as it does: “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit] that Jesus brought to humanity.

“whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatever I have said to you.”​

The Father sent Jesus, the first Comforter. The Father then sent ANOTHER COMFORTER in Jesus’ name. Another Comforter refers to Baha’u’llah who the Father sent in Jesus’ name. Baha’u’llah taught all things and brought what Jesus said to remembrance. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot do the things that Baha’u’llah did (John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14)

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

The Holy Spirit is not God. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God... Just like rays of the sun are not the sun, they are rays that emanate from the sun, the Holy Spirit is not God, it is the rays (Bounty) that emanates from God.

The Holy Spirit came to you because Jesus brought it to you, but it does not live inside of your body. Rather, it affects your soul, your spiritual reality.

John 15:26. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

Does Baha'u'llah come 'from the Father'? Do you realise that this means that Baha'u'llah would be God?

Baha’u’llah was SENT by the Father (God) just like Jesus was SENT by the Father (God). How would that make either one of them God?

There are four separate entities: (1) God, (2) the Holy Spirit, (3) the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Baha’u’llah) and (4) humanity.

God sends --- > Holy Spirit to --- > Jesus, Baha’u’llah who bring --- > Holy Spirit --- > to Humanity

Jesus was the first Comforter. Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

Baha’u’llah did just as Jesus said He would; He testified of Jesus.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.....
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, so it can come upon whomever God sends it to, whenever God sends it. As such, it was sent by God to Jesus and it was later sent to those Pentecost and it was later sent to Baha’u’llah.

John 16:7-11. 'Nevertheless, I [Jesus Christ] tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

THEN, when you look further on in the scriptures, you find the fulfilment of the promise made by Jesus. You don't have to go finding a character that you think might fit!

Did Jesus reprove the world of sin? If He had done so we would not see anyone sinning, would we?

Those verses say that Jesus had to go away (to heaven) so He could send the Comforter (Baha’u’llah) to humanity.... And when that Comforter (Baha’u’llah) comes He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.... and that is exactly what has started to happen among those who have become Baha’is... more will follow. Sure there is still sin and unrighteousness, but that cannot be changed overnight, it is a process. Certainly, the sin in this world is not going anywhere because Jesus died on the cross, as is evidenced by the state we see the world in today.

Acts 2:33. 'Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.'
[The whole of Acts chapter 2 tells us about the day of Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit.]

So where is Muhammad? Where is Baha'u'llah? NOWHERE!

They are both in heaven with Jesus, where else would they be?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Father sent Jesus, the first Comforter. The Father then sent ANOTHER COMFORTER in Jesus’ name. Another Comforter refers to Baha’u’llah who the Father sent in Jesus’ name. Baha’u’llah taught all things and brought what Jesus said to remembrance. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot do the things that Baha’u’llah did (John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14)

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

There are four separate entities: (1) God, (2) the Holy Spirit, (3) the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Baha’u’llah) and (4) humanity.

God sends --- > Holy Spirit to --- > Jesus, Baha’u’llah who bring --- > Holy Spirit --- > to Humanity

Jesus was the first Comforter. Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

'For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'" [Peter 1:21]

How could the books of the New Testament have been revealed without the Holy Spirit being actively involved? The Holy Spirit does these things within the Church.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

Trailblazer, you say 'The Comforter was sent when God sent Jesus who brought the Holy Spirit, and that is why the verse reads as it does: “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit] that Jesus brought to humanity.'

YOU HAVE ADDED YOUR OWN WORDS IN BOLD, and they CHANGE THE MEANING.

Scripture says, The Comforter IS the Holy Spirit. You are saying, The Comforter brought the Holy Spirit. This is quite different.

Christ Jesus did not BRING the HOLY SPIRIT to humanity. He was sat at the right hand of His father in heaven when the Holy Spirit was SENT. That means that Jesus was not physically present on Earth when the Holy Spirit descended. According to you, Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and Jesus have to be present to deliver the Holy Spirit, as in a teaching.

In fact, maybe you could explain how the Manifestations of God deliver the Holy Spirit. Is it in words of wisdom?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In fact, maybe you could explain how the Manifestations of God deliver the Holy Spirit. Is it in words of wisdom?

They deliver the Holy Spirit as a perfect reflection of God.

God is the Sun the Holy Spirit the rays from the sun and the Messengers are a perfect mirror.

Thus we see Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah (to name a few), all as the perfect mirror, chosen by God. They one and all are a perfect reflection of God. They are all the First and they are all the Last, the Beginning and the End.

It is the veils we place that filter the light and distort what we see.

Regards Tony