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How reasonable is monotheism, even hypothetically?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

But is that at all true?

I don't think so, and here is why.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)? How can the claim be even attempted without presuming some form of human authority to decide what is proper divine form and what is not? And if we do accept that such human authority exists, what is then left of the transcendental nature of that deity?

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

For one thing, that is not very useful. Human beings are simply not likely to hold very similar conceptions of deity - or as I personally prefer to call it, of the sacred - and insisting that we nevertheless should act as if we did will only lead to pointless anxiety, fear, even moral dishonesty or at least the temptation to fall into it.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

But is that at all true?

I don't think so, and here is why.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)? How can the claim be even attempted without presuming some form of human authority to decide what is proper divine form and what is not? And if we do accept that such human authority exists, what is then left of the transcendental nature of that deity?

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

For one thing, that is not very useful. Human beings are simply not likely to hold very similar conceptions of deity - or as I personally prefer to call it, of the sacred - and insisting that we nevertheless should act as if we did will only lead to pointless anxiety, fear, even moral dishonesty or at least the temptation to fall into it.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?

One account I've read suggested that the shift from Polytheism to Monotheism was historically associated with the centralisation of political power, from loosely associated cities states with multiple tribal gods to a single empire with one god (or a hierarchy of gods with one at the top). I think this was in relation to Ancient Egyptian Polytheism. If we accept the premise that a deity is the projection of an individual tribe, the amalgamation of tribes and city states would be a basis for consolidating beliefs into a single doctrine with a single god as divine representation of the power and status of the monarch as an earthly institution.

So although monotheism may not make much sense to us now, given our tendency towards individualism with subjective belief (rather than rigid orthodoxies), division of the world into nation states with different cultures and religious traditions and scientific criticism of ancient monotheistic doctrines, it may well have been "reasonable" a few thousand years ago.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)?
We do it through negation.
Jewish philosophers explain that when you say something is singular, you're not quantifying it, you're negating the existence of others. For example its not possible for there to be other red apples and for this red apple to be singular. So when I say there is one red apple, I'm really talking about existences besides this red apple.

Its the same thing here. When we say G-d is One, we're saying that there are no other existences besides for the G-d we are referring to. At the same time, we can't create parts for G-d, because that would bring us back to the first problem. In the words of [someone translating] Maimondes:

Were He to live as life is [usually conceived], or know with a knowledge that is external from Him, there would be many gods, Him, His life, and His knowledge. The matter is not so. Rather, He is one from all sides and corners, in all manners of unity. Thus, you could say, "He is the Knower, He is the Subject of Knowledge, and He is the Knowledge itself." All is one.

We can't say there is "only" G-d, if there is also His knowledge. So as a side-effect to G-d's singularity, we can make a statement about G-d's unity.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
If only one God exists it doesn't really matter if you approve of H
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

But is that at all true?

I don't think so, and here is why.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)? How can the claim be even attempted without presuming some form of human authority to decide what is proper divine form and what is not? And if we do accept that such human authority exists, what is then left of the transcendental nature of that deity?

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

For one thing, that is not very useful. Human beings are simply not likely to hold very similar conceptions of deity - or as I personally prefer to call it, of the sacred - and insisting that we nevertheless should act as if we did will only lead to pointless anxiety, fear, even moral dishonesty or at least the temptation to fall into it.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?

You talking about God as if He were a science or math problem. He isn't.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
If only one God exists it doesn't really matter if you approve of H


You talking about God as if He were a science or math problem. He isn't.
It would be handy if "God" could be proved to be true or false with mathematics though, think of all the arguments it would save! ;) I agree that the divine is not something for science to "prove" or "disprove" as well, I don't suppose you could tell the Discovery Institute that could you? :D
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It would be handy if "God" could be proved to be true or false with mathematics though, think of all the arguments it would save! ;) I agree that the divine is not something for science to "prove" or "disprove" as well, I don't suppose you could tell the Discovery Institute that could you? :D

No, because if they can find a way to prove it that would be awesome. ;)
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.
When I was a Christian I believed there was merit in monotheism in and of itself, there is merit in "oneness" because it unifies and it simplifies, something I've learned Muslims value very highly as well since joining RF. There can essentially only be one truth about reality, whatever you believe; in very blunt and crude terms atheists are right or theists are right (whatever flavour of theist you happen to be). Both can't be true, only one can be; a bit like the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy's "answer to life, the universe, and everything" (one answer which turned out to be 42!:D). So, at that time in my life I'd have said there is merit in oneness, we look for the true answer about reality, which can only be one. Polytheism did not make sense to me then because it begs the question "who made the gods?", you end up with an infinite regress unless there is a big daddy of all the gods, one who unifies everything.

Since then my thoughts have changed, I can see my thinking was heavily influenced by my cultural background, where monotheism has been king for many centuries. There is no reason why polytheism is less likely than theism, if the divine exists you have to concede that a pantheist view or a polytheistic view hold equal merit. Christianity itself describes god as a triune god, a "community" though one god at the same time. The best parallel to the trinity I have heard is how we have conversations with ourselves inside our minds, but it is still just one mind with more than one voice going on inside.

Whether you believe in one god or more, you eventually run into the philosophical problems you describe. The fact is god(s) asks more questions than they answer about reality. Every theist eventually has to retreat into the "mystery and hiddenness" of god(s) because you are talking about the invisible, the supernatural realm that cannot be explored (theists may disagree with that, but if it were really true we wouldn't have so many different religions would we?)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If only one God exists it doesn't really matter if you approve of H

Indeed, it doesn't. It does matter if people take their beliefs too seriously.

That is also true in any other situation regarding the existence of such a deity.

You talking about God as if He were a science or math problem. He isn't.
No, I am explaining why his existence is ultimately of little consequence even if it turns out to be true.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting and thoughtful OP. It is quite thought provoking. I have a few reflections to share. Sorry if I have misunderstood you.

I think it is going to be very difficult to argue that all monotheism is not reasonable, when so many of our fellow beings believe in it and so many scientists and capable people have been adherents of monotheistic religions. If I were going to offer criticism of religious faith in the hope that humanity would be better off, I would probably be a little more specific about particular aspects of monotheistic faiths such as promotion of violence or treatment of women. I would avoid arguing from a philosophical perspective that all monotheism is unreasonable.

The predominantly monotheistic faiths that I am aware of are Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith. Some Buddhists and Hindus also practice monotheism. So if we did a survey of adherents of world religion then probably more than 60% of the worlds population follow monotheism. What's that all about? There may be more to it than the scientific eye beholds.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

There is no doubt that the monotheistic faiths contradict each other and to an extent themselves. I don't believe we can assume they are all wrong because they are not all right though.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

I agree that we can not easily measure God or have Him fit neatly into modern scientific paradigms.

One parameter though in addition to numbers of adherents might be to look at the success of civilisations that have been inspired by monotheistic faiths and compare that to civilisations that have relied on polytheism or atheism.

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

I agree, but we could have an equally rigid, well defined conception of the universe that excludes God that is not necessarily anymore valid.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

Why not a universal truth? There is one sun, not two three or none. How about treat others with kindness and respect and to be truthful and honest? Why can there not be universal truths in religions just as there are in science?

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

I agree that we should be at peace with simple contemplation but what if that contemplation leads to belief in an established religion. Why is that a bad thing?

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?

Logic like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My version of monotheism seems reasonable whereas mainstream Christian belief seems less so. Many Christians on the other hand will take exception to the Baha'i faith. Atheism or polytheism seem less attractive alternatives for many monotheists, even the very clever ones.:)

I think the best we can do on RF is converse with each other and hear what each other has to say. Thanks for sharing and I appreciate it originates from sincere concerns about the state of religion today.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How reasonable is having One supreme authority? Why don't we elect two presidents?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If you're comparing God to Donald Trump, we really have a problem!!
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Monotheism makes the most sense, not in the sense that there is "one" god, but that there is "only" god. The mono prefix means "only."
Every evolution of the image of god--from animism to the personal god--can be satisfied in monotheism. As "only," god is everything. Every living being is a fractured bit of the whole of life, and each individual is participating in god. This is "god" described as the "foundation" or "source" of reality or existence, or sometimes as reality and existence themselves. Metaphorically, it is depicted in phrases like "the light of the world," "the beginning and the ending" (alpha and omega), and the "fountain of life." The image of god as "eternal being" is arguably the image that Abraham's people believed in (as opposed to the so-called "Abrahamic god," which I believe is a relatively modern image), at least when they were being good--as evidenced by his getting all upset when they built a golden idol to worship. And it makes sense to me personally, because if one recognizes cognized reality as brain processes and allow for concrete reality to be something other and distinct from that, one can end up with an image of a human bobbing along, like a broken banjo, in a deep dark sea of mystery.
 
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So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)?...

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

Not all 'mainstream' conceptions of the Abrahamic God are cataphatic though. The apophatic God can only be described via negatives. You can't say what God is, only what God is not.

This includes things like saying God is one, God is eternal or even God exists. You could say that God is not divided or God was not created though.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

Personally I find monotheism as the only possible logical take on God. Polytheism doesn't make any logical sense. The illogical part of theism is that God is Omniscient and wants only one religion. A God that actually learns as time passes and changes with time makes far more logical sense. A god that tries multiple times to get a message across to humans is far more likely. One God that learns as time goes on is the most logical way things happen IMO.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Personally I find monotheism as the only possible logical take on God. Polytheism doesn't make any logical sense. The illogical part of theism is that God is Omniscient and wants only one religion. A God that actually learns as time passes and changes with time makes far more logical sense. A god that tries multiple times to get a message across to humans is far more likely. One God that learns as time goes on is the most logical way things happen IMO.
Multiple gods makes more sense.
The universe, with all its inhabitants, looks like it was designed by a committee.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Multiple gods makes more sense.
The universe, with all its inhabitants, looks like it was designed by a committee.

Based on how the universe especially Animals there would be to much in fighting between the gods to keep creation going. One God that is learning as it goes is far more likely. I also don't believe God designed anything. God created something new and watched it develop.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Based on how the universe especially Animals there would be to much in fighting between the gods to keep creation going. One God that is learning as it goes is far more likely. I also don't believe God designed anything. God created something new and watched it develop.
It does look like the gods fight over animals, which keep going thru major extinctions.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
There was polytheism long before there was monotheism; therefore, that which came first makes more sense.

Though speaking of that which came first, before man believed in multiple gods to fit what he saw in the world around him, he was an atheist.
 
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