How to deal with people who deny free will?

[michel]

I am not talking about intellectual disagreement, I am talking about what sorts of people they've become, on account of their ideas rejecting free will.

But it was their choice (because of their free will) to believe in what they believe...

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Because of science, evolution theory mainly, there are presently lots and lots of people about who deny free will is real.

Basically these people are like a stereotype of Mr Spock, coldhearted and calculating. They ignore my emotions, they ignore their own emotions, and the focus is on some practical matter at hand. They have this calculating, measuring, attitude about them, and they are extremely perfectionistic.

How should we practically deal with these people in a social setting in daily life?

1. Avoid like the plague
2. Make it clear that you don't like them, cause a scene
3. Go along with it, and curse them in thought only
4. Try to sabotage the conversation, causing it to fail as if it was an accident
5. Pay mind to what they are calculating, and calculate with them. Act as them.
6. other


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Here added a list of current influential intellectuals promoting denial of the common concept of free wil of people (the common concept in the sense of having alternative futures available one of which can be made the present)

Susan Blackmore
Daniel Denett
Richard Dawkins
Sam Harris
Joshua Greene
Jonathan Cohen
Derk Pereboom
Will Provine
William S. Robinson

Some of these intellectuals will still use the words free will, by which they mean that the result was forced by a preceding cause. They use a logic of sorting to mean choosing. So for example if the brain sorts out what is the cheapest cola per liter, and then you act upon this sorting process by buying the cheapest cola, then this is what these intellectuals would call choosing. The result is simply forced by the initial conditions, the prices of the different cola's and the rules by which they are sorted, and it couldn't have turned out in any different way.

Adam acted on the assumption of "free will". What a hell of a decision that was.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

If you don't know, you may have attacked me as denying free will without reason on other threads.

Sorry, I don't remember the discussion, but I assume I was correct.

 

[idea]

Not everyone has free will - to "act" rather than "be acted upon" requires a certain amount of willpower and intelligence. If someone chooses to be a victim of their DNA / circumstances / surroundings and chooses not to act for themselves, then that is their choice. The rest of us can choose differently. That's the beauty of free will, we are all free to do whatever we want.

I think it's best to respect free will by not trying to control others, not worrying about what they believe, but being at peace in the knowledge that they have chosen their lot, and we can choose our own lot too.

 

[JRMcC]

Just because you don't believe in free will it doesn't mean you view it in a "cold and calculated" way. It depends on how you think about it and what the consequences might be in the bigger picture. And by bigger picture I mean the spiritual picture

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Because of science, evolution theory mainly, there are presently lots and lots of people about who deny free will is real.

Contradiction of free will is primarily scientific? What a relief! I'd been thinking that the primary objections to free will were all to be found in the Bible:

"And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not hearken unto you, and I will lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." ~ Exodus 7:1-4

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go." ~ Exodus 10:20

"So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen."~ Romans 9:18

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11

So you're saying that the whole idea of God manipulating free will actually comes from science? Curse them!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes. I don't see how that relates to free will, though. I have a choice to skip breakfast, that is my free will to do so. What I consider not free will, is that my choosing and what I do...the pattern of life, in itself, is not spontaneous. Actually, having the free will to choose can be dangerous because people choose to murder and rape. If one is in tuned and aware of how life has patterned them to be (by knowing their calling, for example), that person wouldn't see it as "denying free will" but acting within God's plan, if you like. Doing how life wants you to act rather than how you want to.

I don't see it as acting within any plan God might have, but becoming increasingly self-aware and self-actualized. Doing so isn't necessarily always in ways that I have a predisposition towards, either. It is only when we begin to understand ourselves is when we can truly work on changing the things about ourselves we don't like. We may not always be able to achieve our goals (especially if they are unrealistic), but the effort yields its own rewards.

 

[Jumi]

Sorry, I don't remember the discussion, but I assume I was correct.

No you were wrong but you don't like to discuss, you like to preach.

 

[Kirran]

I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole thread.

But to weigh in anyway - I don't really believe in free will. That is to say, I'd be described as a compatibilist - I believe we make choices, but that those choices are 'predetermined' based on conditions, as in you're cola analogy, which I quite liked.

This doesn't mean I ignore anybody's emotions. Nor does it make me cold and calculating. You may well have encountered people who don't believe in free will who were, but that isn't everybody. I guess that's why people come to RF

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

No you were wrong but you don't like to discuss, you like to preach.

You don't seem to be supportive of any knowledge about how things are chosen at all now, do you?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole thread.

But to weigh in anyway - I don't really believe in free will. That is to say, I'd be described as a compatibilist - I believe we make choices, but that those choices are 'predetermined' based on conditions, as in you're cola analogy, which I quite liked.

This doesn't mean I ignore anybody's emotions. Nor does it make me cold and calculating. You may well have encountered people who don't believe in free will who were, but that isn't everybody. I guess that's why people come to RF

But now really, how should I deal with you then? What I normally do is be subjective towards who somebody is as being the owner of their decisions, focus on the emotions, their spirit, that is the basic mainstay of how I deal with people. I spend much time on forming an opinion on who somebody is.

But it doesn't really work with people who deny free will, because they ignore their own emotions, and they ignore mine.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

You don't seem to be supportive of any knowledge about how things are chosen at all now, do you?

What do you want that evidenced ???
Do you think that a man should leave his freedom for Mohammed ??

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

But now really, how should I deal with you then? What I normally do is be subjective towards who somebody is as being the owner of their decisions, focus on the emotions, their spirit, that is the basic mainstay of how I deal with people. I spend much time on forming an opinion on who somebody is.

But it doesn't really work with people who deny free will, because they ignore their own emotions, and they ignore mine.

Does Islam believe in free will of man ??? J

 

[Jumi]

You don't seem to be supportive of any knowledge about how things are chosen at all now, do you?

It's not knowledge you are interested in. You are interested in preaching your belief and looking down on others.

 

[Jumi]

Does Islam believe in free will of man ??? J

I think they believe that we made a choice to come to this planet to be tested if we would do what god wanted.

 

[Kirran]

But now really, how should I deal with you then? What I normally do is be subjective towards who somebody is as being the owner of their decisions, focus on the emotions, their spirit, that is the basic mainstay of how I deal with people. I spend much time on forming an opinion on who somebody is.

But it doesn't really work with people who deny free will, because they ignore their own emotions, and they ignore mine.

To be honest, I don't know where you're getting this 'ignoring emotions' thing from. Why would I ignore emotions?

The term free will strikes me as an abstraction. Neither the statement 'there is free will' nor the statement 'there is not free will' rings true for me. Things just happen as a result of things that happened before, and we make choices, based on what the situation is. I've reached the point where the idea of 'free will' doesn't quite compute.

In Islam, as I understand it, there's a very strong feeling that all that happens in the Will of God. This is the same sentiment, I believe. If everything that happens is the Will of God, where does free will come from? Really, I'm curious as to how this is understood in Islam.

 

[Kirran]

To expand: if you are focusing on somebody's spirit and emotions when you get to know them, why is it that you can't do that with me. Certainly, I have emotions, and why would I not have a spirit, if everybody else does?

I certainly wouldn't ignore your emotions. In fact, I'd pay a lot of attention to them, as best I could. That stems from compassion, a core concept in most philosophies, including those which have inspired me personally.

 

[Blackmarch]

Because of science, evolution theory mainly, there are presently lots and lots of people about who deny free will is real.

Basically these people are like a stereotype of Mr Spock, coldhearted and calculating. They ignore my emotions, they ignore their own emotions, and the focus is on some practical matter at hand. They have this calculating, measuring, attitude about them, and they are extremely perfectionistic.

How should we practically deal with these people in a social setting in daily life?

1. Avoid like the plague
2. Make it clear that you don't like them, cause a scene
3. Go along with it, and curse them in thought only
4. Try to sabotage the conversation, causing it to fail as if it was an accident
5. Pay mind to what they are calculating, and calculate with them. Act as them.
6. other


=========
Here added a list of current influential intellectuals promoting denial of the common concept of free wil of people (the common concept in the sense of having alternative futures available one of which can be made the present)

Susan Blackmore
Daniel Denett
Richard Dawkins
Sam Harris
Joshua Greene
Jonathan Cohen
Derk Pereboom
Will Provine
William S. Robinson

Some of these intellectuals will still use the words free will, by which they mean that the result was forced by a preceding cause. They use a logic of sorting to mean choosing. So for example if the brain sorts out what is the cheapest cola per liter, and then you act upon this sorting process by buying the cheapest cola, then this is what these intellectuals would call choosing. The result is simply forced by the initial conditions, the prices of the different cola's and the rules by which they are sorted, and it couldn't have turned out in any different way.

Slap them in the face and tell them that you didn't have any free will in the matter?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

To be honest, I don't know where you're getting this 'ignoring emotions' thing from. Why would I ignore emotions?

The term free will strikes me as an abstraction. Neither the statement 'there is free will' nor the statement 'there is not free will' rings true for me. Things just happen as a result of things that happened before, and we make choices, based on what the situation is. I've reached the point where the idea of 'free will' doesn't quite compute.

In Islam, as I understand it, there's a very strong feeling that all that happens in the Will of God. This is the same sentiment, I believe. If everything that happens is the Will of God, where does free will come from? Really, I'm curious as to how this is understood in Islam.

You would ignore emotions because you don't look at your own decisions, nor anybody else's, and emotions are what makes the decisions turn out the way they do. It makes the contact whack, it feels like being used, like an insult.

Now you say to make choices, but then you agreed with the explanation of choosing as sorting. In contact you are using my emotions, to sustain your sorting, calculating, your false idea of choosing.

There is no interest in discussing how free will is looked upon in Islam, one would just straightforwardly accept free will is real, as it is in common discourse, or one rejects free will. One is straightforward, or one is really rejecting.

There may be some uncertainties in how choosing works, that can happen. But what I see is hubris, arrogance, and fantasy in dealing with the issue of how choosing works. Basically it should be just the same as any other issue of fact, you look at evidence, you have some schoolish discipline in following the evidence.

 

[viole]

Apart from this specific topic, the answer to this question as it would be given by those in the natural sciences is "duh". EPR dates to the 30s, Bell's inequality to the 60s, and the empirical test by Aspect et al. to '82. The standard model not only posits acausality but the existence of systems ex nihilo. The antiquated notion of linear causality is a century outdated at the very least.

Honestly. I would not be able to diffeerntiate between causes and effects in a classical system in thermal equilibrium.

ciao

- viole