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How to Hate Women (or to Hate Men) and Get Away With It!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
"[The desire to reform people is] that desire which is in us all to better other people's condition by having them think as we think." -- Mark Twain.

I have a friend who it seems to me has few alarming flaws, except for one that might make up for his lack of others: He hates women. At least, he hates them as women. He seems just fine with them when they "act like men".

I don't know what the cause of it is. I do know, however, that he never expresses his hatred blatantly.

His hatred is expressed subtly. In fact, he expresses it so subtly that he himself might not be aware of how great it is. But I've known him for decades now, and there's not much about women -- as women -- that he really likes.

In many ways, he's fine with women -- but only so long as they are behaving no differently than a man might behave.

Here's just one example of his intolerance (but it's one of many possible examples): He is deeply disappointed, to put it mildly, in the fact women typically are not as often in the mood for sex as men. He cannot accept that about women. Instead, he would reform them, if he could.

I think in the way he looks at it, he doesn't hate women. For to him, hating women would mean he wanted to hurt them, and he doesn't want to hurt anyone. In his eyes, he merely wants to reform women.

Reform nearly everything about them that's to any degree different from men.

Just for the record, I know of women who refuse to tolerate or accept men as they are, without wanting to reform them. I'm merely using my friend to illustrate the problem. But people of both sexes can -- and do -- play the same game.

At any rate, what do you make of all that? Have you ever known anyone, male or female, like him?
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How long have you and George Bernard Shaw been friends?

PICKERING. Excuse the straight question, Higgins. Are you a man of good character where women are concerned?
HIGGINS [moodily] Have you ever met a man of good character where women are concerned?
PICKERING. Yes: very frequently.
HIGGINS [dogmatically, lifting himself on his hands to the level of the piano, and sitting on it with a bounce] Well, I haven't. I find that the moment I let a woman make friends with me, she becomes jealous, exacting, suspicious, and a damned nuisance. I find that the moment I let myself make friends with a woman, I become selfish and tyrannical. Women upset everything. When you let them into your life, you find that the woman is driving at one thing and you're driving at another.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
How long have you and George Bernard Shaw been friends?

PICKERING. Excuse the straight question, Higgins. Are you a man of good character where women are concerned?
HIGGINS [moodily] Have you ever met a man of good character where women are concerned?
PICKERING. Yes: very frequently.
HIGGINS [dogmatically, lifting himself on his hands to the level of the piano, and sitting on it with a bounce] Well, I haven't. I find that the moment I let a woman make friends with me, she becomes jealous, exacting, suspicious, and a damned nuisance. I find that the moment I let myself make friends with a woman, I become selfish and tyrannical. Women upset everything. When you let them into your life, you find that the woman is driving at one thing and you're driving at another.

I love Shaw! Thanks for posting that! The Higgins character expresses what I'm talking about beautifully, especially when he says, "When you let them into your life, you find that the woman is driving at one thing and you're driving at another."
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
I am kinda of extremely iffy about terms like "behave like men" or "behave like women"

Sure, there is a general about how men are about some things and a general about how women are on some things, but to think one is more manly because do X or more womanly becase does Y sounds like a root for problematic worldviews.

Both (traditional)genders can use a lot of beautiful qualities from the other one.

Men should take pride in being compassionate, tender and loving and women should take pride in being direct, ascertive and rational in time of difficulty. At least they shouldn't be looked as less "manly" or "womanly" for being so.

Send a beer to your imaginary friend on my part though, if you let any openings in the box ;)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Reform nearly everything about them that's to any degree different from men.
"The tragedy of marriage is that while all women marry thinking that their man will change, all men marry believing their wife will never change. Both are invariably disappointed"
- Len Deighton

I believe the key to a successful, happy, and healthy relationship is the complete inability to communicate. As long as both partners continually misunderstand what the other is saying, hearing what they want to hear and not hearing what they don't, they will live happily ever after lying to themselves without ever realizing it. Lying to your partner is awful, but equilibrium is only possible with a mutual self-delusion towards the conception of the other's nature, ideas, statements, opinions, etc. There's no need to remake a partner that never existed to begin with. [I don't believe any of what I just said, just to be clear. All sarcasm]

legiononomamoi-albums-other-picture4704-romeo-j.jpg



The above is a screenshot from the TV show Numb3rs, in which a genius mathematician from Caltech helps his FBI brother solve crimes. For those of us with the Autistic tendency to pay attention to all the wrong things, passing shots of math on a blackboard stand out more than peoples' faces. The reason I found this one interesting is because it is stolen from a paper by Strogatz ("Love Affairs and Differential Equations") in which parameters are sought to ensure that continued or unsuccessful relationships as a teaching tool.

The authors of The Mathematics of Marriage: Dynamic Nonlinear Modelsapparently took the idea rather seriously. I have trouble believing that, if any of them were married, it would last.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
"The tragedy of marriage is that while all women marry thinking that their man will change, all men marry believing their wife will never change. Both are invariably disappointed"
- Len Deighton

I believe the key to a successful, happy, and healthy relationship is the complete inability to communicate. As long as both partners continually misunderstand what the other is saying, hearing what they want to hear and not hearing what they don't, they will live happily ever after lying to themselves without ever realizing it. Lying to your partner is awful, but equilibrium is only possible with a mutual self-delusion towards the conception of the other's nature, ideas, statements, opinions, etc. There's no need to remake a partner that never existed to begin with. [I don't believe any of what I just said, just to be clear. All sarcasm]

legiononomamoi-albums-other-picture4704-romeo-j.jpg



The above is a screenshot from the TV show Numb3rs, in which a genius mathematician from Caltech helps his FBI brother solve crimes. For those of us with the Autistic tendency to pay attention to all the wrong things, passing shots of math on a blackboard stand out more than peoples' faces. The reason I found this one interesting is because it is stolen from a paper by Strogatz ("Love Affairs and Differential Equations") in which parameters are sought to ensure that continued or unsuccessful relationships as a teaching tool.

The authors of The Mathematics of Marriage: Dynamic Nonlinear Modelsapparently took the idea rather seriously. I have trouble believing that, if any of them were married, it would last.

This has to be one of the most genius posts of all time!!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I believe the key to a successful, happy, and healthy relationship is the complete inability to communicate. As long as both partners continually misunderstand what the other is saying, hearing what they want to hear and not hearing what they don't, they will live happily ever after lying to themselves without ever realizing it. Lying to your partner is awful, but equilibrium is only possible with a mutual self-delusion towards the conception of the other's nature, ideas, statements, opinions, etc. There's no need to remake a partner that never existed to begin with. [I don't believe any of what I just said, just to be clear. All sarcasm]

That's almost as good as something Shaw would write.

There might be some truth to it, too.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
sounds more like he hates certain behaviors and modes of thinking than women 'as women' (whatever that means)

Sorry I didn't make my meaning clear. But I am at a momentary loss to express my point better than I did. Maybe I'll think of something later.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I am kinda of extremely iffy about terms like "behave like men" or "behave like women"

Sure, there is a general about how men are about some things and a general about how women are on some things, but to think one is more manly because do X or more womanly becase does Y sounds like a root for problematic worldviews.

Both (traditional)genders can use a lot of beautiful qualities from the other one.

Men should take pride in being compassionate, tender and loving and women should take pride in being direct, ascertive and rational in time of difficulty. At least they shouldn't be looked as less "manly" or "womanly" for being so.

Human diversity is wonderful, isn't it?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
...women 'as women' (whatever that means)

Perhaps this can make my meaning clearer: You know how both men and women like to wear blue jeans? And you know how women are more likely to wear pink colored clothing than men?

OK, my friend would not be likely to criticize women for wearing blue jeans because that's something men do too. But he might criticize women for wearing pink because that's something women are more likely to do than men.

I hope that helps.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Perhaps this can make my meaning clearer: You know how both men and women like to wear blue jeans? And you know how women are more likely to wear pink colored clothing than men?

OK, my friend would not be likely to criticize women for wearing blue jeans because that's something men do too. But he might criticize women for wearing pink because that's something women are more likely to do than men.

I hope that helps.

How did you become friends? :D

He sounds refreshingly ballooney :D
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Do you have any interest in reforming him?

Also the person you are describing seems more to be on a frame of mind that some things are "for men" and others "for women" which while I would generally not agree with that (some exceptions like that for now I dont think men can get pregnate, science will get me back on this eventually I guess) I do know that a lot of posters on RF both men and women believe this.

While I ardently have debated such points, I am sure most of them dont hate the other gender or their own, they just genuinely think they should mandatorily have different roles.

It seems this person believes in fixed gender roles in other words. Maybe if you describe him further I can see I am analysing him wrong.

After allyou've known him for 10 years, you must know him best! :D

Is he the direct subject of the thread or is the direct subject how believing things are either "for men" or "for women" may be a cope out so you can hate some gender?

I think they can be, but many things can be such cope out. I dont believe it has to be so though. What do you believe?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Do you have any interest in reforming him?

I seldom waste my time any more trying to reform people.

Also the person you are describing seems more to be on a frame of mind that some things are "for men" and others "for women"...

I'm not following how you've come to the conclusion he thinks some things are for men and some things are for women. Please enlighten me!
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I seldom waste my time any more trying to reform people.



I'm not following how you've come to the conclusion he thinks some things are for men and some things are for women. Please enlighten me!

you are right, this subject is so confusing to my patterns I glitched :D

I am with legion where she says it would seem he dislikes certain actions and customs and not women themselves.

If he dislikes them for being "womanly" maybe he just dislike "girly" things and wouldnt hate a woman that is "tomboyish" (or however that is spelled).

Then again as you say, it could be just a way to disguise it. How did you found out he hated women? was it something in his tone of voice? facial expression? body language? this tend to be the biggest check points for emotional responses. For how long have you seen the behaviour?

I know you say you know him for 10 years, but I mean how often in such time did you see himand how often did he displayed this emotional cues of intent underneath his mask?
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Men and women are different. Sure some men act more feminine and some women act more masculine, but by and large we're different creatures. The only difficulty here is determining whether these differences have more to do with biology or with culture, but that's by the by. We're different.
A classic human reaction to something different is to view it as in some way flawed. This might manifest itself overtly (men are violent, shallow brutes and women are callous, manipulative swine) or it might manifest more subtly. It's when it manifests subtly that it creeps up on people, even the most tolerant person can have a moment where they damn the opposite sex for what they consider to be their flaws.
Furthermore people like a scapegoat for their disappointments. It's easier to target a different group than it is to target a group you belong to when looking to vent your frustrations. Everybody does this from time to time, but a lot of people catch themselves when they do (or am I being too optimistic here?). If you don't catch yourself you can spend years justifying your dislike of a group to yourself and heaping more and more of your grievances onto them until eventually you hate genuinely hate them.
We're really not tolerant of what we consider to be "other" no matter how much we might like to think otherwise.
 
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