How well defined must our idea of a god or a gods be before we can claim to believe (or disbelieve)

[Sunstone]

How well defined must our idea of a god or a gods be before we can claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?

Can we have a very vague and fuzzy notion of a god or gods and still claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?


Consider this: Is the use to which we might put our belief of key or crucial importance here? To illustrate, imagine a map. On the map is a star. You know the star stands for a house. If all you need to use the map for is to get to the house, then won't the star do?

But suppose you need to use the map to measure the dimensions of the house? Or it's actual shape? In that case, would you not need something better defined than a star?

So, by the same token, should we answer the question, "How well defined must our idea of a god or gods be....", according to what use we are going to put our idea?

 

[WalterTrull]

I believe in water. It really comes in handy on occasion. I turn on the tap, and there it is. I suppose it would be advantageous to know where it comes from; that generally, I have to pay for it; to know where to turn if it no longer appears in the tap. But, for right now, I believe in water, and it's working for me.

 

[Quintessence]

Isn't this a personal matter? I find framing this about "claims" to be rather awkward. The implication is that such claims can (or should) be disputed by others. If one is expressing one's sincerely held beliefs, that's not a claim, that's an articulation. Some god-concepts or theologies are abstract. That is, they are supposed to be vague and fuzzy, or ineffable. Why would I second guess someone describing their god to me just because it's ineffable or abstract?

 

[Thief]

How well defined must our idea of a god or a gods be before we can claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?

Can we have a very vague and fuzzy notion of a god or gods and still claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?


Consider this: Is the use to which we might put our belief of key or crucial importance here? To illustrate, imagine a map. On the map is a star. You know the star stands for a house. If all you need to use the map for is to get to the house, then won't the star do?

But suppose you need to use the map to measure the dimensions of the house? Or it's actual shape? In that case, would you not need something better defined than a star?

So, by the same token, should we answer the question, "How well defined must our idea of a god or gods be....", according to what use we are going to put our idea?

how about ....Almighty

seems self explanatory

bigger, faster, stronger, most intelligent and greatly experienced

should the Almighty play second under any one of these attributes.....
He is not the Almighty

 

[Revoltingest]

I never needed a precise or detailed definition of gods in order to
not believe in them. But since I grew up in a largely Christian
community, their God was the first one I specifically disbelieved in.

Disbelief doesn't demand much from us. But believers with a codified
religion do appear have much information to digest. I don't envy them.

 

[Thief]

Disbelief doesn't demand much from us.

now THAT is a confession

 

[Revoltingest]

now THAT is a confession

How so?
It seems pretty obvious to me....we've no scripture
to study....no commandments to follow (whether we
like them or not)...and no angry deity to fear.

 

[LuisDantas]

How well defined must our idea of a god or a gods be before we can claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?

However much any of us pleases, with as much or as little coherence, reason or sanity as we wish to apply individually.

This is a very freeform, strictly personal matter, although the goal of achieving agreement with others on this subject is not.

The only reason why there is any controversy involved is due to the existence of strongly motivated groups that do, in fact, make it their goal to convince others.

It must be noted that those groups are either theistic (and, in fact, very consistently monotheistic) or clearly a reaction, even a defense, against those theistic groups. Atheism lacks the motivational power for proselitism except as a reaction, as does polytheism.

Far as I recall, no non-monotheistic groups have ever felt a pressing need to convince others on this matter of belief of the existence of any gods. Even the tired claims of "atheistic" excesses from Stalin and others are in fact references to anti-theistic movements that were spurred by perceived excesses from monotheistic churches.

(I am not making a distinction between monotheism and trinitarianism, because I don't think it has any practical value beyond being an excuse for rejecting similar faiths).

Can we have a very vague and fuzzy notion of a god or gods and still claim to believe (or disbelieve) in a god or gods?

Definitely. Beyond that, we can switch from one stance to the other at a moment's notice as well, for any or no reason at all. It is our sandbox/playground for us to do as we please.

Consider this: Is the use to which we might put our belief of key or crucial importance here? To illustrate, imagine a map. On the map is a star. You know the star stands for a house. If all you need to use the map for is to get to the house, then won't the star do?

But suppose you need to use the map to measure the dimensions of the house? Or it's actual shape? In that case, would you not need something better defined than a star?

So, by the same token, should we answer the question, "How well defined must our idea of a god or gods be....", according to what use we are going to put our idea?

Quite so.

 

[LuisDantas]

how about ....Almighty

seems self explanatory

It is not.

I guess it can be self-explanatory for those who are already certain that an almighty creator exists.

For us others? Not nearly so.

 

[LuisDantas]

now THAT is a confession

It isn't.

It is for those who believe to support their belief, to delimit them, to give witness.

Disbelief requires no parameters.

 

[Thief]

How so?
It seems pretty obvious to me....we've no scripture
to study....no commandments to follow (whether we
like them or not)...and no angry deity to fear.

free agent......to the bitter end

then what?

 

[Thief]

It is not.

I guess it can be self-explanatory for those who are already certain that an almighty creator exists.

For us others? Not nearly so.

top of the line life form are you?
nothing greater?

 

[Revoltingest]

free agent......to the bitter end

then what?

Death.

 

[Thief]

It isn't.

It is for those who believe to support their belief, to delimit them, to give witness.

Disbelief requires no parameters.

it requires denial

and hopefully the parameters of reason

 

[Thief]

Death.

we all die

but with 7billion copies of a learning device wandering about

I suspect some of us will continue

 

[Revoltingest]

we all die

but with 7billion copies of a learning device wandering about

I suspect some of us will continue

Let me know how it turns out for you.

 

[Thief]

Let me know how it turns out for you.

actually.....I have considered that scenario

as I post I DO consider that God and heaven will know of this post

They will indeed carry through and note the effect

SO!......as you stand before God and heaven
( I believe we all do )

Someone will ask................What do you believe?
your response is critical

they will then continue......WHO told you that?!!!!!!!!!!!
and WHY did you believe it?!!!!!!
(or not)

if you can .......excuse yourself
not sure how you will square off a declaration of disbelief.....but you will need to go for it

then they come looking for me

 

[LuisDantas]

top of the line life form are you?
nothing greater?

This that you are saying make no sense to me. I am hardly part of any "top of the line life form".

it requires denial

and hopefully the parameters of reason

You are very mistaken about me if you truly think that my atheism "requires denial".

 

[Thief]

This that you are saying make no sense to me. I am hardly part of any "top of the line life form".



You are very mistaken about me if you truly think that my atheism "requires denial".

you either declare there is a god....
or you declare there is not

you have no fence to sit on

 

[Revoltingest]

actually.....I have considered that scenario

as I post I DO consider that God and heaven will know of this post

They will indeed carry through and note the effect

SO!......as you stand before God and heaven
( I believe we all do )

Someone will ask................What do you believe?
your response is critical

they will then continue......WHO told you that?!!!!!!!!!!!
and WHY did you believe it?!!!!!!
(or not)

if you can .......excuse yourself
not sure how you will square off a declaration of disbelief.....but you will need to go for it

then they come looking for me

What if there is an afterlife, & everyone is welcomed without question.
Even I would gain admission.
Won't you have egg on your face then!

The afterlife....there's no way to say what it would be like.
Maybe we all become fleas to perform in a circus.

You can't prove otherwise.