How would you define secular Jew?

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, now that I'm looking at your answer a bit more closely, does the ethnicity have anything to do with their genes and religion? Two questions there -- but anyway, maybe there are some Jews that would like to answer, I figure you're not Jewish, right? Was Frankenstein Jewish, or ethnically Jewish? I don't know maybe you do.

Ethnicity is a societal construct that divides people into groups. It can be a group based on similar appearances. It can be a group based on a common ancestry. Etc. Jews are considered an ethnicity because tribes are considered ethnicities.

As with any tribal people, the easiest way to be a member of the tribe is to be born into the tribe. But tribes, on rare occasions, also adopt outsiders in. Ever watch Dances with Wolves? It is about a white American guy who becomes a Lakota. There is a great scene where Kicking Bird says to him, "The white man who came here is no more. All I see before me is a Lakota named Dances with Wolves."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'll try. So an ethnic Jew from Russia would be a different ethnicity from someone who considers himself an ethnic Jew from Louisiana, you think possibly? A person born and raised in Ireland is ethnically Irish? He could be ethnically Irish-Jewish I suppose maybe. But if he moved to Australia would his children be "ethnically Irish," and the children born and raised in Australia, do you think the children would call themselves ethnically Irish-Jewish too?

Jews do subdivide ourselves. In the ancient world, we were divided by tribe, referring to the 12 tribes of Israel. Today, the divisions are ashkenazi (European Jew), sephardi (from Spain) and mizrahim (Middle East and North Africa). Each group has their own special traditional foods, languages, etc.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was reading about a person who was described as an ethnic Jew but he didn't believe in God in any format, so wondering what a person might consider to be an "ethnic" Jew. Can one be an "ethnic Muslim?" lol, just wondering...I guess they can be ethnic almost anything.

Technically, all Jews are ethnic Jews, either by birth or conversion. But the expression "ethnic Jew" is often used to refer to secular Jews, in contrast to religious Jew, or observant Jew.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, what's an ethnic Jew? Obviously not someone identifying himself as an ethnic Catholic, right? I haven't heard of an ethnic Protestant or ethnic Catholic, so wondering what constitutes an ethnic "non-religious" Jew? Why associate himself with being a Jew?

You are making the same mistake here. Catholic and Protestant refer to religious orientation. Jew does not.

 

[PureX]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew. From Jews and non-Jews if possible.

I would think it's a person that considers him/herself to be Jewish as part of an historical ethnic group, as opposed to religious affiliation.

 

[LuisDantas]

When I hear talk about secular Jews, I always assume that it is someone (or some group) that accepts and values Jewish identity, including interactions in specifically Jewish ceremonies and rituals, but does not fully adhere to Judaism as its own religion. It might be possible for a secular Jew to adhere to another religion that is not Judaism, but I would assume that they do not until given better information.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When I hear talk about secular Jews, I always assume that it is someone (or some group) that accepts and values Jewish identity, including interactions in specifically Jewish ceremonies and rituals, but does not fully adhere to Judaism as its own religion. It might be possible for a secular Jew to adhere to another religion that is not Judaism, but I would assume that they do not until given better information.

A Jew that converts to another religion is an apostate, not a secular Jew. This means that while they may technically still be a Jew, they have lost all their rights as Jews. For example, they may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery, or testify in a Jewish court of law. They have basically made themselves outsiders. A secular Jew is not an outsider. They simply are not observant.

 

[YoursTrue]

I would think it's a person that considers him/herself to be Jewish as part of an historical ethnic group, as opposed to religious affiliation.

Reminding me of what Paul said, whether you believe that he said it or not: (Romans chapter 2) "A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God."
So my next question to those particularly Jewish here would be since a man can be considered Jewish by personal affiliation somehow with Jewishness (?) as Ben-Gurion seemed to say -- what about fleshly circumcision? Does that come into consideration?

 

[YoursTrue]

A Jew that converts to another religion is an apostate, not a secular Jew. This means that while they may technically still be a Jew, they have lost all their rights as Jews. For example, they may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery, or testify in a Jewish court of law. They have basically made themselves outsiders. A secular Jew is not an outsider. They simply are not observant.

Now I'm wondering about circumcision. Can a man align himself with Jews or ethnic Judaism and be considered a Jew without being circumcized?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Reminding me of what Paul said, whether you believe that he said it or not: (Romans chapter 2) "A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God."
So my next question to those particularly Jewish here would be since a man can be considered Jewish by personal affiliation somehow with Jewishness (?) as Ben-Gurion seemed to say -- what about fleshly circumcision? Does that come into consideration?

Paul does not determine who is a Jew. Halakha (Jewish law) determines who is a Jew.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now I'm wondering about circumcision. Can a man align himself with Jews or ethnic Judaism and be considered a Jew without being circumcized?

Circumcision does not affect a Jew's Jewish status; a Jew by birth is a full Jew, even if not circumcised.

 

[LuisDantas]

A Jew that converts to another religion is an apostate, not a secular Jew. This means that while they may technically still be a Jew, they have lost all their rights as Jews. For example, they may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery, or testify in a Jewish court of law. They have basically made themselves outsiders. A secular Jew is not an outsider. They simply are not observant.

Thanks for the clarification.

Would you perhaps be aware and willing to discuss any form of borderline cases?

By which I mean, are there any noteworthy situations which involve disagreements on whether someone is an apostate or instead a secular Jew?

I assume that, as most other societies, the Jewish people don't always agree on whether a certain movement should be considered a religion - or, in this case, whether it excludes or is somehow incompatible with Judaism. Nor is it necessarily easy to tell whether someone has adhered to a religion or movement.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thanks for the clarification.

Would you perhaps be aware and willing to discuss any form of borderline cases?

By which I mean, are there any noteworthy situations which involve disagreements on whether someone is an apostate or instead a secular Jew?

I assume that, as most other societies, the Jewish people don't always agree on whether a certain movement should be considered a religion - or, in this case, whether it excludes or is somehow incompatible with Judaism. Nor is it necessarily easy to tell whether someone has adhered to a religion or movement.

Why don't you give me what you think is an example of a borderline case. If I don't know the answer, I'll be honest about it.

 

[dybmh]

@Snow White,

Remember the thread where you asked about thread titles? It's happening... Moth to the flame.

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew. From Jews and non-Jews if possible.

Honestly, that's a toughie for me.

I think I would go with non-practicing as a good basic meaning for secular. But we need a person who identifies as secular to confirm it.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Reminding me of what Paul said, whether you believe that he said it or not: (Romans chapter 2) "A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God."
So my next question to those particularly Jewish here would be since a man can be considered Jewish by personal affiliation somehow with Jewishness (?) as Ben-Gurion seemed to say -- what about fleshly circumcision? Does that come into consideration?

I'm almost sorry that I quoted Ben-Gurion's statement earlier in this thread. I should add that this was only his opinion and certainly was not based on Halacha. Ben-Gurion, himself, was not a religious Jew (although in his later years he identified with pantheism).

Male circumcision is another one of those things that is central to Judaism. It is a sign of our covenant with God. While it's true that one who is born Jewish remains Jewish whether he is circumcised or not, male circumcision is nevertheless an important mitzvah for the parents of a male Jewish infant (providing the infant doesn't have a medical condition that would make the procedure dangerous for him).

For male converts to Judaism, however, circumcision is required in both Orthodox and Conservative branches of Judaism in order to become a Jew. I don't think that Reform Judaism necessarily requires it of converts, though.

With no intended disrespect to any Christians here, it may be that the apostle Paul invented the idea of circumcision being "a matter of the heart, by the Spirit" (as you wrote) because, at the time, Paul was intent on his missionary work to bring Gentile converts into the new religion of Christianity. Circumcision was not practiced among the Gentiles, and no doubt would have been viewed by many male Gentiles as a physically uncomfortable impediment to Christian conversion had circumcision been required.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why don't you give me what you think is an example of a borderline case. If I don't know the answer, I'll be honest about it.

The obvious example would be Reform Judaism.

I have very little solid information and all of it is second-hand at best, but my best guess would be that Orthodox Judaism and perhaps Conservative as well doesn't always feel that it is "quite" or "truly" Judaism - probably with significant exceptions and provisos.

By a slightly less obvious perspective, being secular or religious isn't always a clear, binary status. I assume that a secular Jew may pass unnoticed if he is not vocal. Even being an outsider can in itself be a relative perception with some nuance and even seemingly random variation.

Then there are those Christian groups that for some reason or another want to claim to be Judaism. I don't really consider them Judaism at all, but if you want to comment on those, I am very willing to listen.

I would mention syncretism and quasi-syncretism as well, if I knew of any examples. Which I do not. To the best of my knowledge Judaism is remarkably resistant to syncretisms.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...)
I think I would go with non-practicing as a good basic meaning for secular. But we need a person who identifies as secular to confirm it.

I'm sure there are those who disagree (and apparently this thread's OP does) but I tend to think of secular as a quality that groups and organizations can have, while individual persons are instead non-religious, disbelievers, skeptics, atheists or something else a bit more specific.

Mainly because secularism is a directive to guide policies. It is arguably unnecessary or even impossible to be secular at the individual level.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, I personally would choose the weekly celebration of Shabbat, as this has traditionally been the most universally observed mitzvah in Judaism. Different branches of Judaism may observe Shabbat differently but, whatever one's level of observance may be in Judaism, Shabbat is central to Jewish life.



We have different branches of Judaism because all Jews do not necessarily agree on all things.

Thank you for your response.Ok well here's the thing, although not really the question from the beginning...what is the outcome of a person if one mitzvah is observed? I mean what happens to a person if he doesn't observe even one mitzvah?

 

[YoursTrue]

It is arguably unnecessary or even impossible to be secular at the individual level.

Why do you say that?

 

[YoursTrue]

The reason, I think, that you haven’t heard of ethnic Catholics and ethnic Protestants is that Catholicism and the Protestant traditions are creedal and confessional by nature. Being a Catholic or Protestant involves subscribing to a list of beliefs. On the other hand, being a Jew is not a matter of subscribing to a creed or confession.

Jews are a people. (Being part of a people is a matter of birth or naturalization and assimilation.) This is how it has been understood for ages. In Exodus, for instance, the God of Israel did not create an Israelite religion and ask people all over the world to become Israelites, rather, he made a covenant with a nation, a people who had already existed—Israel. Jews are just one tribe within the Israelite nation. Even when Jews ignored the covenant, which you could say was not practicing Judaism, they were still called Judah by God and the prophets.



There are some South Slavs who call themselves ethnic Muslims. In my opinion, the idea of Muslim as an ethnic label is weird because a Muslim is defined as a ‘submitter’ as in one who submits to God within the context of Islam. If a person does not subscribe to Islam but speaks Turkish, for example, and identifies with Turkish art, architecture, customs, achievements, and the like, maybe that person should just be called a Turk instead of something weird such as ‘ethnic Muslim?’

Ok point well taken from the scriptures. But then of course some of Israel became followers of Jesus. According to the Bible.