How would you define secular Jew?

[Jayhawker Soule]

What a thread -- so many people trying to define so many other people: what it means to be them, what it means to be "us."

^ this

In post #17 I defined a secular Jew as "a Jew who does not self-identify as religious." Labels such as "religious" and "observant" can be extremely problematic, not only because they are heavily connotative, but also because the connotations are not shared with any degree of fidelity. If my definition has any value whatsoever, that value stems from the phrase "does not self-identify."

The following may prove useful:

• Map-territory relation
• Religious vs. Observant: What's the Difference

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

^ this

In post #17 I defined a secular Jew as "a Jew who does not self-identify as religious." Labels such as "religious" and "observant" can be extremely problematic, not only because they are heavily connotative, but also because the connotations are not shared with any degree of fidelity. If my definition has any value whatsoever, that value stems from the phrase "does not self-identify."

The following may prove useful:

• Map-territory relation
• Religious vs. Observant: What's the Difference

I had a very good friend (died a few years ago), who absolutely identified as a "secular Jew." He was a noted oncologist in Canada, who did television in Britain (on medical subjects among others -- including working with Monty Python crew), and who was also President of the Humanist Association of Canada. He wrote a book, Can We Be Good Without God, and published a great deal on cancer care, dealing with patients who are dying, and more. We belonged to the same book club. Dr. Robert Buckman -- a very fine gentleman.

Renowned oncologist Robert Buckman dies at 63

Colleagues are remembering Toronto oncologist, author and media personality Robert Buckman as a caring individual with "an exquisite sense of humour."

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[dybmh]

That first step is definitely and drammatically on the bold side. I just don't see how you could meaningfully achieve it without promoting quite a bit of change in society. I'm talking of the sort of change that will be taught in scholls for decades at least.

A very large part of current social expectations relies on religion remaining contradictorily defined and understood and misunderstood.

I love how seriously you're approaching the question. I wasn't thinking of it that way. How can I help? I'm at your service.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I had a very good friend (died a few years ago), who absolutely identified as a "secular Jew."

I'm sorry for your loss. He sounds remarkable.
On a personal note:

We just returned from the Stratford Festival. A sincere thanks to you and your fellow Canadians for a wonderful week.​

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm sorry for your loss. He sounds remarkable.
On a personal note:

We just returned from the Stratford Festival. A sincere thanks to you and your fellow Canadians for a wonderful week.​

I've been going to Stratford Festival religiously for more than 60 years.

 

[YoursTrue]

Belief in (the existence of a) god is simply not helpful for religion. Even for the Abrahamics creeds, which may have invented the notion that it would be the prime requirement of religion.

Ultimately, belief is just belief. It may appeal for people for various reasons, but all the same it is just belief.

Religion, if we want to define it as something that people may participate in for positive results, simply does not benefit from belief, particularly monotheistic belief. Instead, it deals with and requires some measure of acceptance, mutual attention, and efforts at establishing a shared understanding of valid goals, virtues and ideas.

It is not only possible to be an atheistic religious person, but it can be the optimal situation as well. Even in the Abrahamics that disdain atheism.

ok, when you talk about the Abrahamic creeds, that brings up some questions, such as: who related what to whom about Abraham?

 

[YoursTrue]

When it comes to Judaism, we certainly do have an understanding of "religious." It means doing mitzvot, saying prayers, singing psalms, keeping the holy days... It's not at all hard to understand.

There is a big billboard picture of M.. Schneerson with a phrase about doing more good to others. Question: do you know if there are followers of M. Schneerson still at his gravesite watching to see if he is resurrected?

 

[YoursTrue]

When it comes to Judaism, we certainly do have an understanding of "religious." It means doing mitzvot, saying prayers, singing psalms, keeping the holy days... It's not at all hard to understand.

Really? In order to be religious he has to do all those things?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is a big billboard picture of M.. Schneerson with a phrase about doing more good to others. Question: do you know if there are followers of M. Schneerson still at his gravesite watching to see if he is resurrected?

It has been a while since I attended a Chabad. Although I'm fairly sure no one is literally hanging around his grave, I am unsure what proportion of Chabadniks are expecting him to resurrect.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really? In order to be religious he has to do all those things?

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Do you have some reason why you would doubt it to be true?

 

[LuisDantas]

ok, when you talk about the Abrahamic creeds, that brings up some questions, such as: who related what to whom about Abraham?

At this point quite a few people.

But early on it was probably some of the earliest Jewish religious authorities, unless I am seriously mistaken ("what are the odds", he said, tongue firmly in cheek). I believe that they are currently known as Rabbis, perhaps at some point Judges.

Not sure why that is relevant here, though.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

what is a "secular" Jew.

The phrase I use is cultural Jew, and you could call me one. My parents were atheists but self-identified as Jews. They didn't pray or attend synagogue, nor celebrate Jewish holidays. What was Jewish about them was that they preferred being with other atheistic Jews, they used Yiddish expressions, and they liked foods liked bagel with shmear and matzoh ball soup. And my mother thought education was the key to future (university was assumed) and wanted her son to grow up to be a doctor. Seinfeld and his family might be a reasonable example of my Jewish family.

By my generation, I didn't prefer to be with Jews and didn't use Yiddish phrases.

By contrast, my mother remarried a failed rabbinical student, who did celebrate the holidays at home (seders, menorahs), took us to synagogue for the High Holidays, kept a kosher home, and had me bar mitzvahed, which required learning to pronounce Hebrew. I remember the Hannukah prayer from those days - baruch atta adonoi elohanu melech ho'olom asher kidashanu b'mitzvosav vitzivanu l'hadleek ne'er shell Hannukah. I'm not sure if that guy believed in a god or not despite reciting prayers during holidays. We never talked about or to God.

Unfortunately, he was also cruel and slapped me around a bit, which had the curious effect of making Judaism and Jewish culture repulsive to me and left me with some anti-Semitism to deal with, but that's in the past.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Do you have some reason why you would doubt it to be true?

Apparently observance is more central to Judaism than in many other religions. That may easily surprise people who come with certain expectations.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Apparently observance is more central to Judaism than in many other religions. That may easily surprise people who come with certain expectations.

Fair enough.

 

[rosends]

I have been trying to put together something reasonable about the label "secular Jew." I think it is a poor choice of English words but it reflects a title from the Hebrew of Chiloni. The root idea is "chol" which is loosely defined as (in modern Hebrew) "secular, profane; weekday". Clearly even that word has a wide range of meanings, as does the English word "secular." It also sets up a binary opposition, making Chiloni the opposite of Dati ("religious" but again, that's not a great word). In a more biblical usage, chol is separate from kodesh ("holy") and that colors the current usage making it more of an epithet.

To my very limited mind, a secular Jew is one who does not engage in the ritualistic and even belief-based identity as a Jew, but subscribes to an ethnic/historical/geneological connection, linked to a heritage and culture but not the codified or institutionalized spiritual expression. But that's just off the cuff.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

The phrase I use is cultural Jew, and you could call me one. My parents were atheists but self-identified as Jews. They didn't pray or attend synagogue, nor celebrate Jewish holidays. What was Jewish about them was that they preferred being with other atheistic Jews, they used Yiddish expressions, and they liked foods liked bagel with shmear and matzoh ball soup. And my mother thought education was the key to future (university was assumed) and wanted her son to grow up to be a doctor. Seinfeld and his family might be a reasonable example of my Jewish family.

By my generation, I didn't prefer to be with Jews and didn't use Yiddish phrases.

By contrast, my mother remarried a failed rabbinical student, who did celebrate the holidays at home (seders, menorahs), took us to synagogue for the High Holidays, kept a kosher home, and had me bar mitzvahed, which required learning to pronounce Hebrew. I remember the Hannukah prayer from those days - baruch atta adonoi elohanu melech ho'olom asher kidashanu b'mitzvosav vitzivanu l'hadleek ne'er shell Hannukah. I'm not sure if that guy believed in a god or not despite reciting prayers during holidays. We never talked about or to God.

Unfortunately, he was also cruel and slapped me around a bit, which had the curious effect of making Judaism and Jewish culture repulsive to me and left me with some anti-Semitism to deal with, but that's in the past.

So sorry you had such a bad experience with your stepfather. That hurt my soul to read how you were treated, and I'm glad you were able to put that experience in your past. Hopefully you can meet some other Jews who can perhaps provide you with a better image of Judaism.

You know, that Hannukah prayer you remember can be helpful if you should ever decide to welcome into your home the gentle peace and calm that comes from the lighting of a pair of Shabbat candles on a Friday evening. The prayer that is said over the lighted candles is the same as that Hannukah prayer you posted, except the final word you would be saying is "Shabbat" instead of "Hannukah."

Wishing you peace. Shalom.

 

[Harel13]

I have been trying to put together something reasonable about the label "secular Jew." I think it is a poor choice of English words but it reflects a title from the Hebrew of Chiloni. The root idea is "chol" which is loosely defined as (in modern Hebrew) "secular, profane; weekday". Clearly even that word has a wide range of meanings, as does the English word "secular." It also sets up a binary opposition, making Chiloni the opposite of Dati ("religious" but again, that's not a great word). In a more biblical usage, chol is separate from kodesh ("holy") and that colors the current usage making it more of an epithet.

To my very limited mind, a secular Jew is one who does not engage in the ritualistic and even belief-based identity as a Jew, but subscribes to an ethnic/historical/geneological connection, linked to a heritage and culture but not the codified or institutionalized spiritual expression. But that's just off the cuff.

Technically dat means law, so dati means law-abiding. But most people don't think about it that way, because the world has gotten used to Western definitions.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So sorry you had such a bad experience with your stepfather. Wishing you peace. Shalom.

Thanks.

Hopefully you can meet some other Jews who can perhaps provide you with a better image of Judaism.

Thanks again, but I'm long since past that. In fact, though I was once ashamed of it, I'm proud of my Jewish cultural heritage now. How did Jews win so many Nobel prizes?

I'm proud of that ethic. My mother was a Roosevelt-era New Your Jewish liberal. She took the option of no college off the table. It was never a consideration. My college diploma was a given, and it didn't hurt me any imbibing that, nor her admonitions to pick a profession like law or medicine.

And she was at the liberal vanguard. She got a divorce from my conservative (and bigoted) atheist Jewish father at a time when my young friends would all ask, "What's a divorce?"

And her third husband was a black man when nobody else was doing that, and when walking into a restaurant garnered glares of disapproval. She worked in Watts during the riots at the WLCAC: Home - WLCAC .

You know, that Hannukah prayer you remember can be helpful if you should ever decide to welcome into your home the gentle peace and calm that comes from the lighting of a pair of Shabbat candles on a Friday evening. The prayer that is said over the lighted candles is the same as that Hannukah prayer you posted, except the final word you would be saying is "Shabbat" instead of "Hannukah."

Yes, thanks, I've heard it spoken that way, too, but prayer isn't part of my life. I just have a good memory, or wouldn't know it any longer.

Speaking of which, I think I remember the first two words of my haftorah - "Anoche, anoche" (pronounced ah-no-KEY, I believe). Does that mean anything to you? It was on September 9, 1967, if that helps identify the torah reading for the day.

 

[Harel13]

Speaking of which, I think I remember the first two words of my haftorah - "Anoche, anoche" (pronounced ah-no-KEY, I believe). Does that mean anything to you? It was on September 9, 1967, if that helps identify the torah reading for the day.

That's the opening of the haftarah of Parashat Shoftim (and yes, a Hebrew-secular calender verifies that the date matches). My dad also had his bar mitzvah that Shabbat (though over a decade after you).

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

That's the opening of the haftarah of Parashat Shoftim (and yes, a Hebrew-secular calender verifies that the date matches). My dad also had his bar mitzvah that Shabbat (though over a decade after you).

Thank you very much for that. I looked at the link but didn't find the words I remembered. I'm thinking that I'll recognize all of it if I see it transliterated (I don't read Hebrew well any more and never did speak it). I think I memorized it then. Do you know how I can find that?