How you can have free will without the option to sin

[The Transcended Omniverse]

God could have created the universe and his human creations any way he wanted to. There is one way he could have done it and it would have been the far better way. That would be to have made his human creations perfect sinless beings where they are incapable of sinning. They would not have the option to sin. This would not be taking away their free will and I am going to explain.

If you had someone who worked at McDonalds and they had some horrible item on that menu which would be an option that a customer could choose, that item does not belong and should be removed from the menu. Removing this item would not take away the customer's free will. The customer can still freely choose any of the other good items on that menu.

Why have that item on the menu in the first place then? If it's to teach a lesson for wrongdoing, then I think this is absurd and asinine and I will also explain. If you had a patient and the life lesson to be learned is to avoid cancer, then avoiding cancer is what is important. Therefore, there would be no reason to inflict cancer upon this patient or to give him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer.

In that same sense, it would be asinine and absurd for a God to endow the capacity for sin upon his human creations just so that they can learn to not sin when avoiding sin was what was important to begin with. That is no different than giving a patient cancer or giving him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer just so that he/she can learn how important it was for him/her to avoid cancer.

Therefore, I think it is cruel and unloving for a God to bestow the capacity for sin upon his human creations since this is what is resulting in them going to hell, being punished, etc. Many people are blind and accept God's actions and judgments as holy, righteous, etc. But God's moral nature should be judged on the basis of how you would judge the moral nature of your mother, father, or anyone else.

In other words, if it is unloving and unjust for a certain person or parent to make a certain judgment or do a certain deed, then that can be projected onto God as well. So if he carries out those same judgments and actions, then that also makes him unloving and unjust.

Just because God did it does not make it right. Therefore, I would ask you to imagine for a moment that your mother or father performs the same acts, deeds, and judgments as God. Wouldn't that make him/her an unloving and unjust parent then? I think it would.

Lastly, your brain has different capacities. You have, for example, the capacity to send signals to your body and make yourself move. Therefore, removing the option to sin would be no different. It would be like taking away the brain's capacity to send signals to your body and make you move (aka paralysis). Another example would be that some people in the world are so loving and caring that they are incapable of hating others. So we can clearly see how certain attributes of our personality can be incapacitated. Therefore, if the same can be done for these types of situations, then the same thing can be done in the situation of sin as well.

 

[Fool]

God could have created the universe and his human creations any way he wanted to. There is one way he could have done it and it would have been the far better way. That would be to have made his human creations perfect sinless beings where they are incapable of sinning. They would not have the option to sin. This would not be taking away their free will and I am going to explain.

If you had someone who worked at McDonalds and they had some horrible item on that menu which would be an option that a customer could choose, that item does not belong and should be removed from the menu. Removing this item would not take away the customer's free will. The customer can still freely choose any of the other good items on that menu.

Why have that item on the menu in the first place then? If it's to teach a lesson for wrongdoing, then I think this is absurd and asinine and I will also explain. If you had a patient and the life lesson to be learned is to avoid cancer, then avoiding cancer is what is important. Therefore, there would be no reason to inflict cancer upon this patient or to give him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer.

In that same sense, it would be asinine and absurd for a God to endow the capacity for sin upon his human creations just so that they can learn to not sin when avoiding sin was what was important to begin with. That is no different than giving a patient cancer or giving him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer just so that he/she can learn how important it was for him/her to avoid cancer.

Therefore, I think it is cruel and unloving for a God to bestow the capacity for sin upon his human creations since this is what is resulting in them going to hell, being punished, etc. Many people are blind and accept God's actions and judgments as holy, righteous, etc. But God's moral nature should be judged on the basis of how you would judge the moral nature of your mother, father, or anyone else.

In other words, if it is unloving and unjust for a certain person or parent to make a certain judgment or do a certain deed, then that can be projected onto God as well. So if he carries out those same judgments and actions, then that also makes him unloving and unjust.

Just because God did it does not make it right. Therefore, I would ask you to imagine for a moment that your mother or father performs the same acts, deeds, and judgments as God. Wouldn't that make him/her an unloving and unjust parent then? I think it would.

the veil, or the contrast of form to it's surrounding, creates the illusion of separateness. a hole is defined by the material that defines it. They are basically energy with varying levels of density.

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.


the name reveals the impermeability of form. the formless is the substance of all mutable forms. the paradox is that all forms are finite and have substance of no form, or no thingness.


confusion is created by difference of form, and the illusion of separateness, because other self is not recognized as the Infinite I that i am. I and the Father are ONE.


Colossians 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

 

[bobhikes]

Sin is an determined act against your moral knowledge of Good. You know when you are sinning and still chose to do so. You can't accidentally sin. How can God remove this without removing choice?

For example fornicating with your married neighbor is a sin for most of us. Your going to have married neighbors in life should god take away the ability to fornicate with anyone but the person you marry and how does God do this?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Sin is an determined act against your moral knowledge of Good. You know when you are sinning and still chose to do so. You can't accidentally sin. How can God remove this without removing choice?

For example fornicating with your married neighbor is a sin for most of us. Your going to have married neighbors in life should god take away the ability to fornicate with anyone but the person you marry and how does God do this?

This can be done and I will explain. Your brain has different capacities. You have, for example, the capacity to send signals to your body and make yourself move. Therefore, removing the option to sin would be no different. It would be like taking away the brain's capacity to send signals to your body and make you move (aka paralysis). Another example would be that some people in the world are so loving and caring that they are incapable of hating others. So we can clearly see how certain attributes of our personality can be incapacitated. Therefore, if the same can be done for these types of situations, then the same thing can be done in the situation of sin as well.

 

[bobhikes]

This can be done and I will explain. Your brain has different capacities. You have, for example, the capacity to send signals to your body and make yourself move. Therefore, removing the option to sin would be no different. It would be like taking away the brain's capacity to send signals to your body and make you move (aka paralysis). Another example would be that some people in the world are so loving and caring that they are incapable of hating others. So we can clearly see how certain attributes of our personality can be incapacitated. Therefore, if the same can be done for these types of situations, then the same thing can be done in the situation of sin as well.

In my opinion if you can't act you do not have choice. Just because you think of something does not mean you are going to do it. In my opinion the inability to act on my thoughts would be a worse option for a God to use.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

In my opinion if you can't act you do not have choice. Just because you think of something does not mean you are going to do it. In my opinion the inability to act on my thoughts would be a worse option for a God to use.

But you would be able to choose only those types of acts and deeds that God wants and that is what matters here. Go back to my cancer analogue. It would be asinine and absurd to bestow a completely worthless capacity upon his human creations that results in them rebelling and going to hell. Why would it not not be more loving to save them from hell by a far more effective means by removing their capacity to sin as opposed to the means he has used which would be the sacrifice of Jesus and all this other nonsense?

 

[Kemosloby]

God could have created the universe and his human creations any way he wanted to. There is one way he could have done it and it would have been the far better way. That would be to have made his human creations perfect sinless beings where they are incapable of sinning. They would not have the option to sin. This would not be taking away their free will and I am going to explain.

If you had someone who worked at McDonalds and they had some horrible item on that menu which would be an option that a customer could choose, that item does not belong and should be removed from the menu. Removing this item would not take away the customer's free will. The customer can still freely choose any of the other good items on that menu.

Why have that item on the menu in the first place then? If it's to teach a lesson for wrongdoing, then I think this is absurd and asinine and I will also explain. If you had a patient and the life lesson to be learned is to avoid cancer, then avoiding cancer is what is important. Therefore, there would be no reason to inflict cancer upon this patient or to give him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer.

In that same sense, it would be asinine and absurd for a God to endow the capacity for sin upon his human creations just so that they can learn to not sin when avoiding sin was what was important to begin with. That is no different than giving a patient cancer or giving him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer just so that he/she can learn how important it was for him/her to avoid cancer.

Therefore, I think it is cruel and unloving for a God to bestow the capacity for sin upon his human creations since this is what is resulting in them going to hell, being punished, etc. Many people are blind and accept God's actions and judgments as holy, righteous, etc. But God's moral nature should be judged on the basis of how you would judge the moral nature of your mother, father, or anyone else.

In other words, if it is unloving and unjust for a certain person or parent to make a certain judgment or do a certain deed, then that can be projected onto God as well. So if he carries out those same judgments and actions, then that also makes him unloving and unjust.

Just because God did it does not make it right. Therefore, I would ask you to imagine for a moment that your mother or father performs the same acts, deeds, and judgments as God. Wouldn't that make him/her an unloving and unjust parent then? I think it would.

Lastly, your brain has different capacities. You have, for example, the capacity to send signals to your body and make yourself move. Therefore, removing the option to sin would be no different. It would be like taking away the brain's capacity to send signals to your body and make you move (aka paralysis). Another example would be that some people in the world are so loving and caring that they are incapable of hating others. So we can clearly see how certain attributes of our personality can be incapacitated. Therefore, if the same can be done for these types of situations, then the same thing can be done in the situation of sin as well.

Free will is a human invention. God doesn't say we have free will. He says we are slaves to one master or another, but if we choose to be slaves to righteousness we are free indeed.

My interpretation. Do right and God won't bother you.

 

[bobhikes]

But you would be able to choose only those types of acts and deeds that God wants and that is what matters here. Go back to my cancer analogue. It would be asinine and absurd to bestow a completely worthless capacity upon his human creations that results in them rebelling and going to hell. Why would it not not be more loving to save them from hell by a far more effective means by removing their capacity to sin as opposed to the means he has used which would be the sacrifice of Jesus and all this other nonsense?

If I can only chose what god wants I do not have choice. What is far better is just removing hell. You have the choice to follow God and go to heaven or not and die. God would never need a hell, God would take the best and let the others die. Its like a toy you no longer want you throw it away. You don't break the fingers glue them back on and break them again everyday. God needs to get rid of Hell

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

If I can only chose what god wants I do not have choice. What is far better is just removing hell. You have the choice to follow God and go to heaven or not and die. God would never need a hell, God would take the best and let the others die. Its like a toy you no longer want you throw it away. You don't break the fingers glue them back on and break them again everyday. God needs to get rid of Hell

You would have choice. It would just be limited only to those acts that God wants. You would only be able to choose any type of act or deed that God wants. Go back to my analogue with the menu.

 

[bobhikes]

You would have choice. It would just be limited only to those acts that God wants. You would only be able to choose any type of act or deed that God wants. Go back to my analogue with the menu.

I understand your concept but I disagree that it allows choice. Fortunately God made the world as is, so I can use my choice and disagree.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I understand your concept but I disagree that it allows choice. Fortunately God made the world as is, so I can use my choice and disagree.

Let me put it this way. So let me ask you this. If you were playing a videogame and you had a character where you could choose any type of clothing for him/her. You could either choose any type of villain outfit or any heroic outfit for him/her. If all the villain outfits were removed, then you would only be left with the heroic outfits to choose from. So does that mean you have no choice then? This makes no sense to me. You clearly still have a choice. You can still choose any heroic outfit you want. Therefore, why would't that also apply to this whole idea of sin as well where the option to sin has been removed, but you can still choose any type of act or deed that God wants?

 

[bobhikes]

Let me put it this way. So let me ask you this. If you were playing a videogame and you had a character where you could choose any type of clothing for him/her. You could either choose any type of villain outfit or any heroic outfit for him/her. If all the villain outfits were removed, then you would only be left with the heroic outfits to choose from. So does that mean you have no choice then? This makes no sense to me. You clearly still have a choice. You can still choose any heroic outfit you want. Therefore, why would't that also apply to this whole idea of sin as well where the option to sin has been removed, but you can still choose any type of act or deed that God wants?

But I don't want a heroic outfit.

Here's how I see it.

First off pain is not bad it is a warning to you. 6 months, 1 year, 10years of pain is nothing compared to eternal bliss. ----- We live in the now so it seems terrible to us.
Suffering is a choice, even in the most extreme circumstances you don't have to suffer. You choose to suffer. -------- When you are in pain its hard to choose not suffering.
Disasters, Diseases ... etc are challenges for you to overcome, not evil. --------- Challenges allow you to show your worth and learn remorse.
Death is not evil even if it is of a young person. If you lived without sin you will be rewarded eternally. ----- Death is only a finality if you are not worthy
Sin is Doing something you recognize as wrong purposefully not some directive from a holy book. If a 5 year old breaks a parents item purposely because they are mad that is a sin
Sins can be forgiven if you show remorse. When the child says I'm sorry and cry's, the sin is forgiven.
Choice is a necessity to show that you are worth eternal life.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

But I don't want a heroic outfit.

Here's how I see it.

First off pain is not bad it is a warning to you. 6 months, 1 year, 10years of pain is nothing compared to eternal bliss. ----- We live in the now so it seems terrible to us.
Suffering is a choice, even in the most extreme circumstances you don't have to suffer. You choose to suffer. -------- When you are in pain its hard to choose not suffering.
Disasters, Diseases ... etc are challenges for you to overcome, not evil. --------- Challenges allow you to show your worth and learn remorse.
Death is not evil even if it is of a young person. If you lived without sin you will be rewarded eternally. ----- Death is only a finality if you are not worthy
Sin is Doing something you recognize as wrong purposefully not some directive from a holy book. If a 5 year old breaks a parents item purposely because they are mad that is a sin
Sins can be forgiven if you show remorse. When the child says I'm sorry and cry's, the sin is forgiven.
Choice is a necessity to show that you are worth eternal life.

But that all goes back to my cancer analogue. If cancer is the problem to be avoided in the first place, then it would be asinine and absurd to give this patient cancer or to give him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer when there was the solution there all along for this patient to not have cancer and to not have this capacity to begin with. This would also apply to sin. Since sin is the problem to be avoided in the first place, then there is no reason to give us the capacity for it. There is no need to prove oneself worthy when God could have made us perfect beings all along where we are all already worthy.

 

[Skwim]

How you can have free will without the option to sin

Evidently god thought it's possible because he created A&E with the idea they would not disobey him, eat the apple, and bring sin into the world. As I see it from the Christian standpoint, his vision for the future was a world populated by sinless, free willed homo sapiens.


.

 

[bobhikes]

But that all goes back to my cancer analogue. If cancer is the problem to be avoided in the first place, then it would be asinine and absurd to give this patient cancer or to give him/her the capacity to be inflicted with cancer when there was the solution there all along for this patient to not have cancer and to not have this capacity to begin with. This would also apply to sin. Since sin is the problem to be avoided in the first place, then there is no reason to give us the capacity for it. There is no need to prove oneself worthy when God could have made us perfect beings all along.

God is an infinite Being with vast knowledge and vast powers. If God wanted a copy boom there's a copy. God want something that could be its own entity, not another version of God. Something that has all its own feelings experiences, view points. Someone God could debate with. God wants an equal but individual. God can not make that directly to be individual you have to have choice to be a god you better be worthy.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

God is an infinite Being with vast knowledge and vast powers. If God wanted a copy boom there's a copy. God want something that could be its own entity, not another version of God. Something that has all its own feelings experiences, view points. Someone God could debate with. God wants an equal but individual. God can not make that directly to be individual you have to have choice to be a god you better be worthy.

But if you are punished with flames that are either eternal or destroy your soul, then I think it would be more all just and more loving to have created human beings as copies of God rather than giving them the option to sin.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Evidently god thought it's possible because he created A&E with the idea they would not disobey him, eat the apple, and bring sin into the world. As I see it from the Christian standpoint, his vision was a world populated by sinless, free willed homo sapiens.


.

Then that would have to mean that God is not all knowing since if he thought that they would not disobey him, then this means he cannot see into the future and he does not know everything about his creations. Also, why not just remove the apple from plain sight to someplace safe where Adam and Eve could not get to it?

 

[bobhikes]

But if you are punished with flames that are either eternal or destroy your soul, then I think it would be more all just and more loving to have created human beings as copies of God rather than giving them the option to sin.

So in your world you just want copies of yourself. Mirror images to look at for eternity. We disagree, this is not what I want or based on how the world is set up what I believe god wants.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

So in your world you just want copies of yourself. Mirror images to look at for eternity. We disagree, this is not what I want or based on how the world is set up what I believe god wants.

Then he is wanting something that makes him not all loving and not all just. He prefers to set up the world and his creation in such a way that they are at risk of being doomed to punishment and hellfire. But a way that does not pose those risks would denote a God who is truly all loving and all just.

 

[bobhikes]

Then he is wanting something that makes him not all loving and not all just. He prefers to set up the world and his creation in such a way that they are at risk of being doomed to punishment and hellfire. But a way that does not pose those risks would denote a God who is truly all loving and all just.

I'm OK with that. Humans want things to be all loving and just. Look at the world is it all loving and just, how many years, prophets, saints and humans have had it this way. As far as I know only 2 humans ever lived in the world you want and they sinned anyway.