How you Percieve Christ of Nazareth

[horizon_mj1]

This is a question that i have had for some time now, and please do not be offended (i honestly do not want nor believe in out-right offending anyone). In the Bible all of Christ's teachings where of His Father, so why is it that Christ is worshiped over His Father. I realize that without the death of Christ on the Cross and His Resurrection we could not ask God for repentance according to Christianity; it just seems to me that if you kneel to the King before the battle is won then there is no-one to stand by the Kings side (not that this is necessarily needed). How is it that teachings of proper ways to worship God turned into the Teacher being the one worshiped? (Do not get me wrong, when the Prince is given His Crown of Glory I will be one of the first on my knees)

 

[Onkara]

This is a good question. I think the answer is in John's Gospel. Anyone?

 

[savagewind]

Luke 10:39 Martha had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said I believe Christ of Nazareth is The Word of God. To be worshiping God is to be intently occupied with what God says. What is your definition of "worship" as in "so why is it that Christ is worshiped over His Father?" If it means paying strict attention to what Christ will do, that might be wrong for a follower to do. I believe Christ of Nazareth accomplished what he set out to do. Now it is for us to accomplish our part. It is my opinion that accomplishing my part can only be done by the worship of The Father Yahweh but I must keep listening to The Son.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

For many Christians Jesus was his Fathers representative on earth.
The messages he brought and the lessons he gave us were from his father.
For Trinitarian Christians... To worshis Jesus, is the same as worshiping the father, both they together with the Holy spirit are One God.

However some Christians like my self tend more to a "Unitarian" View where they see God and the Holy spirit, as one and the same, in all but function, with Jesus as his son and our teacher.

Jesus always referred to himself as subordinate to God and I have no problem with that.

From the earliest Christian times Jesus was seen as more than "Just a man". Hovever for a monothiest society this created numerous problems, only solved by the convention of the Trinity.

I pray and worship God
I remember and give thanks for Jesus in the Eucharist.

I do not understand the true nature of Jesus any more than I understand the true nature of his father, God.
Neither of those lack of understandings limit their value for worship.

References in the Bible only give you what was understood by the Early Christians up to the third century. I do no believe that the Authors and editors struggled any less with the problem, than we do today. Nor do I believe that they were any more spiritual, learned or inspired than we might be today. However they did have a close relationship to the oral stories which were fewer generations old.

 

[horizon_mj1]

If it is in god in which you find Inspiration, then Inspiration is what you shall Find. Jesus of Nazareth was against anyone or anything being Worshiped before His Father; so why is it that this is acceptable throughout Christianity. Is this in no way going against initial Teachings of Christ in which so many claim to hold Sacred? Did Christ not state He was here to Share the Sacred Teachings of His Father.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

No one worships Jesus before his Father.

 

[InChrist]

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22-23

 

[horizon_mj1]

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22-23

Beautiful quote InChrist, it has been awhile since I have read this; it makes sense to me in a way how there can not be honor of one without the other after all Christ's two main goals were to teach humanity of His Father and to allow us to ask for forgiveness of our sins. Is it main stream belief that Christ is Judge now or that He will become Judge after the 2nd coming? One more question as well; is it believed by most Christians that there will be a Judgment Day or is it accepted that Judgment occurs post death?

 

[Breathe]

However some Christians like my self tend more to a "Unitarian" View where they see God and the Holy spirit, as one and the same, in all but function, with Jesus as his son and our teacher.

How common is this in the Anglican church? What about with "son" as meaning "servant", as opposed to biological, or does it have to be begotten?

 

[savagewind]

A servant is someone the owner uses and pays. A son is someone who is nurtured. A servant is not always loved. It is rare. In a perfect world a son is loved always.

 

[horizon_mj1]

One thing I have had difficulties with is how Jesus and God are perceived as the same person, but then it is Written that Jesus is the "son" of God. Could it be that the in integral belief system is mimicked through two different individuals; each being a separate entity working in unison?

 

[Shiranui117]

One thing I have had difficulties with is how Jesus and God are perceived as the same person, but then it is Written that Jesus is the "son" of God. Could it be that the in integral belief system is mimicked through two different individuals; each being a separate entity working in unison?

In order to understand this, one must first understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

Before we continue, the following two disclaimers need to be made:
1: When we Christians speak of the Trinity, we do NOT define it as God having schizophrenia or multiple-personality disorder; the Trinity is not God switching between three different "modes" or "masks."

2: When we Christians speak of the Trinity, we do NOT mean to say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three wholly separate entities. We do not have three Gods, but One. We do not hold the Mormon position of "Three persons united in purpose only."

Now that that's out of the way, here is the actual definition of what the Trinity is, courtesy of OrthodoxWiki.org:

Orthodox Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the Holy Trinity, the one God. Following the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers, the Church believes that the Trinity is three divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia). It is paradoxical to believe thus, but that is how God has revealed himself. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence (homoousios) and coeternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.
God is not an impersonal essence or mere "higher power," but rather each of the divine persons relates to mankind personally. Neither is God a simple name for three gods (i.e., polytheism), but rather the Orthodox faith is monotheist and yet Trinitarian. The God of the Orthodox Christian Church is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the I AM who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush.The source and unity of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus, the Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction. To try to comprehend unbegottenness (Father), begottenness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity, says the holy Gregory the Theologian, and so the Church approaches God in divine mystery, approaching God apophatically, being content to encounter God personally and yet realize the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend Him.
The primary statement of what the Church believes about God is to be found in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Now, to define those Greek terms that showed up in that quote:

-Hypostasis: A person.
-Ousia: An essence; i.e. that which makes an entity that particular entity; for example, the essence of Shiranui117 is different from the essence of horizon_mj.
-Homoousios: Of one essence.

In this case, since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all of the same Divine Essence, they all are one "being," each Person being fully God. It is not a case of 1/3+1/3+1/3=1, or of 1+1+1=3, but 1+1+1=1. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not just "parts" of God, but are each fully God in their own right. Three distinct Persons, yet one God. Distinct, yet not separate. United, yet not confused or mixed.

So yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of God, yet is also fully God Himself.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Me Myself]

I think you have an incorrect assumption when you say he is asked "over" his father.

you may say "more frequently" and that may depend on many factors and still be kinda of subjective... but it would be less obviously inaccurate

 

[Me Myself]

One thing I have had difficulties with is how Jesus and God are perceived as the same person, but then it is Written that Jesus is the "son" of God. Could it be that the in integral belief system is mimicked through two different individuals; each being a separate entity working in unison?

I see it like this: You get a chunk of Clay, and the clay forms a father and a son. Both are clay (god) but you still have the son being distinct to the father, yet they are both the same, because they are both God.

so both are clay, it´s just a different form, in a different " place" of the clay. It´s the clay expressing in two ways one next to the other. the son doesnt become less clay because it is formed as a son, likewise the father does not become less clay because it is formed as a father. Both are clay(god) in a different form.

 

[james2ko]

This is a question that i have had for some time now, and please do not be offended (i honestly do not want nor believe in out-right offending anyone). In the Bible all of Christ's teachings where of His Father, so why is it that Christ is worshiped over His Father. I realize that without the death of Christ on the Cross and His Resurrection we could not ask God for repentance according to Christianity; it just seems to me that if you kneel to the King before the battle is won then there is no-one to stand by the Kings side (not that this is necessarily needed). How is it that teachings of proper ways to worship God turned into the Teacher being the one worshiped? (Do not get me wrong, when the Prince is given His Crown of Glory I will be one of the first on my knees)

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.​

A loose analogy could liken the Father as the lone shareholder of heaven and earth and the Son as CEO.

 

[james2ko]

One thing I have had difficulties with is how Jesus and God are perceived as the same person, but then it is Written that Jesus is the "son" of God. Could it be that the in integral belief system is mimicked through two different individuals; each being a separate entity working in unison?

You are on the right track. Although most of Christianity embraces a trinitarian relationship, a careful study of scripture along with a closer look at church history reveals a binatarian relationship is in order.

 

[Shiranui117]

You are on the right track. Although most of Christianity embraces a trinitarian relationship, a careful study of scripture along with a closer look at church history reveals a binatarian relationship is in order.

I have seen arguments for this, but never solid proof. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Also, doesn't 2 Corinthians 3:17 directly disprove the Binitarian theory? " 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

 

[james2ko]

I have seen arguments for this, but never solid proof. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Also, doesn't 2 Corinthians 3:17 directly disprove the Binitarian theory? " 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

We believe 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers directly to Jesus Christ--not an additional personage. The term "spirit" is used in the sense of composition which other scriptures support (Joh 4:24; 1 Cor 15:45)

 

[Shiranui117]

We believe 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers directly to Jesus Christ--not an additional personage. The term "spirit" is used in the sense of composition which other scriptures support (Joh 4:24; 1 Cor 15:45)

Very well. What do you make of 2 Corinthians 13:14?
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen."

Why list the Holy Spirit apart from Father and Son, if the Holy Spirit is merely the active workings of the Father and the Son? Would that not be redundant?

Now, you mentioned the claim that the early Church was Binitarian. What do you make of references to the "Trinity" and "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in such works as the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and others? Trinity of the Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[james2ko]

Very well. What do you make of 2 Corinthians 13:14?"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen."list the Holy Spirit apart from Father and Son, if the Holy Spirit is merely the active workings of the Father and the Son? Would that not be redundant?

1. Greek term for communion is defined as:

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
1a) the share which one has in anything, participation
1b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy
1b1) the right hand as a sign and pledge of fellowship (in fulfilling the apostolic office)
1c) a gift jointly contributed, a collection, a contribution, as exhibiting an embodiment and proof of fellowship

We believe fellowship is listed as a quality of the Spirit--not a personage. This is consistent with the listing of particular qualities of the Father and Son--grace and love.

Now, you mentioned the claim that the early Church was Binitarian. What do you make of references to the "Trinity" and "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in such works as the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and others? Trinity of the Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Trinity of the Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

2. We do not consider the Didache as inspired prose. As you probably know the trinity was not formally adopted until after 325 A.D. the Council of Nicea. It was finally adopted, essentially as now commonly understood, by the 381 Council of Constantinople. As a matter of fact, Ignatius never mentioned the Holy Spirit as God in any of his writings and he was one of John's students.