Human ‘behavioural crisis’ at root of climate breakdown, say scientists

[icehorse]

Back when many scientists were saying that Einstein's theories were bunk a reporter asked Einstein what he thought of the fact that 50 scientists said he was wrong. He responded saying (I paraphrase) that it would only take one scientist to observe a physical natural phenomenon to prove him wrong, not 50.

If every single one of the hundreds of thousands of members all said that water was not wet, then instead of agreeing I would go to the sink, turn on the tap, put my hand under the tap, and if my hand was wet I wound not accept the Union's finding.

But that's me I guess...

Topsoil depletion is an existential threat. I'd say that analyzing the data we've collected and making projections is more than called for, no?

 

[Valjean]

The rich growing medium virgin soil provided is depleted with each planting and harvest. The soil biome of bacteria, fungi, nematodes and diverse larger organisms is being slowly sterilized. Our 'highly productive' farms are growing crops in chemically infused sand. Surrounding acreage is depleted of insects, birds and other interdependent organisms.

The planet's biome, maintained by the planet's biodiversity, sustains us, as well. The future welfare of humanity depends on the welfare of the planet. We plunder it at our peril.

 

[Valjean]

--and that's so easy to say and repeat as the mood strikes. Verifying the allegation w/ clear observations is a different matter altogether.

You imply I pulled all this out of my hat. I'm reporting fact. Google.

Right now the situation is one where our farming community has been using the same acreage for a hundred years while increasing production at lower prices. Simply repeating over and again the same old mantra about our somehow loosing topsoil will convince none beyond a tiny minority of true believers.

Topsoil is not acreage. Sterile acreage does not contribute to biodiversity. Our Spaceship Earth runs on biodiversity. The planet's biome is maintained by biodiversity.
Our focus solely on our own economy and needs ignores the big picture. We're part of a system, but we're bleeding it white. This isn't sustainable.

It doesn't matter. Even if we magically outlawed all food production and we switched to eating air, our not caring about observations means that the true believers would still be able to say we're depleting the topsoil.

What is it with this topsoil obsession? Depths are easily and frequently measured. Averages are decreasing; end of story. So are aquifer depths increasing, climate warming, ocean temps increasing and pH decreasing.

Green revolutions can yield short term bounty, but often at long term expense.

 

[Pete in Panama]

That's maybe .. but there is no scientist that can prove that topsoil does not decline
due to industrial farming.

..and it's not just about our generation, but about our children's and grandchildren's etc.

So the problem does not exist for us now but is in the future. My thinking is that this is how it always will be.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...What is it with this topsoil obsession? ...

For me it's not a big concern, if you want to drop it as being trivia then I'm more than willing to go along.

..Green revolutions can yield short term bounty, but often at long term expense.

That's like so much of the doom'n'gloom around, not for today but only a problem in the future.

Where it will remain forever.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's like so much of the doom'n'gloom around, not for today but only a problem in the future.

Where it will remain forever.

Basically, you are asserting that the predictions aren't worth a jot.
You clearly aren't aware of how near in the future that these things will happen.

For example, mankind is increasing their consumption of fossil fuels year-on-year,
yet they know that it is not sustainable.
I'm afraid that the consequences are only decades away .. and not billions of years in the future!

In fact, we are already experiencing an increasing rate of "climate disasters".

 

[exchemist]

For me it's not a big concern, if you want to drop it as being trivia then I'm more than willing to go along.

That's like so much of the doom'n'gloom around, not for today but only a problem in the future.

Where it will remain forever.

That may be so with the topsoil issue, I don't know the ins and out of that.

However with the climate change issue, it's already on top of us. I was reading only last week in the Financial Times about the soaring insurance premia, in some parts of the world, against fire, wind and flood. Some real estate is apparently now becoming uninsurable, due to increased risk - and the large payouts already made in the last few years.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Topsoil depletion is an existential threat. I'd say that analyzing the data we've collected and making projections is more than called for, no?

So what we got is that the data analysis and projections have yet to be made. Fine w/ me. I'd rather someone else paid for it tho.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Basically, you are asserting that the predictions aren't worth a jot....

They're fine as long as you don't wan't me to do anything about it. Hell, I can make projections too but w/o observations they're worthless. Show me observations that support the trend and we can talk.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...the climate change issue, it's already on top of us...

This is something that I'm getting from a lot of good people, tho a lot of good folks believe in astrology too. If you get a chance, please explain what part of the climate is changing world wide because of human abuse. Some say it's that man-made CO2 is causing a green house effect that's warming the earth 1.5C over the past 150 years. Is that your belief?

 

[exchemist]

This is something that I'm getting from a lot of good people, tho a lot of good folks believe in astrology too. If you get a chance, please explain what part of the climate is changing world wide because of human abuse. Some say it's that man-made CO2 is causing a green house effect that's warming the earth 1.5C over the past 150 years. Is that your belief?

Ask an insurer. That's why I mentioned the insurance industry. They are well aware of it and adjusting their premia accordingly.

 

[exchemist]

This is something that I'm getting from a lot of good people, tho a lot of good folks believe in astrology too. If you get a chance, please explain what part of the climate is changing world wide because of human abuse. Some say it's that man-made CO2 is causing a green house effect that's warming the earth 1.5C over the past 150 years. Is that your belief?

To supplement my previous reply, take a look at this: Climate Change and U.S. Property Insurance: A Stormy Mix

So the insurance industry “believes” in climate change, and if you look at the chart showing how insurance payouts have ballooned since the 1980s, it is clear why.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you get a chance, please explain what part of the climate is changing world wide because of human abuse..

If you don't know, then why haven't you bothered to find out?

It's like saying that you didn't know there was a speed-limit on a road.
i.e. ignorance is no excuse!

 

[icehorse]

So what we got is that the data analysis and projections have yet to be made. Fine w/ me. I'd rather someone else paid for it tho.

No, the projections HAVE been made, I gave you a link. As I recall, in places like Iowa, the projection is that the topsoil will be gone in about 60 years.

 

[Pete in Panama]

This is something that I'm getting from a lot of good people, tho a lot of good folks believe in astrology too. If you get a chance, please explain what part of the climate is changing world wide because of human abuse. Some say it's that man-made CO2 is causing a green house effect that's warming the earth 1.5C over the past 150 years. Is that your belief?

If you don't know, then why haven't you bothered to find out?

Huh. My question was whether this was your belief, and I'd have thought that the only way of finding out about your belief was to ask you. My first impulse is to ask you if there was some other way of finding out your belief but then we'd be back at my not bothering to find out again.

Whatever, cheers!

 

[Pete in Panama]

No, the projections HAVE been made, I gave you a link. As I recall, in places like Iowa, the projection is that the topsoil will be gone in about 60 years.

Most folks would not put much credence in such a projection. It's like saying that back in 1964 we had twice as much topsoil as we have now. Nobody would believe that. OK, so you could say that this is a sudden increase that started recently, but once again it's hard to believe.

 

[icehorse]

Most folks would not put much credence in such a projection. It's like saying that back in 1964 we had twice as much topsoil as we have now. Nobody would believe that. OK, so you could say that this is a sudden increase that started recently, but once again it's hard to believe.

Haha, well it won't matter what most folks think When it's gone, it's gone. That said, I know a lot of people prefer to avoid harsh realities like this.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Huh. My question was whether this was your belief..

I would have thought it was obvious..
What do most people believe about climate-change?

Is it not that it is caused by "human abuse" ?
..and that INCLUDES the burning of fossil fuels that cause imbalance of CO2, yes.
..and deforestation etc. etc.

 

[Valjean]

muhammad_isa said:
That's maybe .. but there is no scientist that can prove that topsoil does not decline due to industrial farming.

It doesn't take a scientist. It just takes a shovel and tape measure. People have been digging holes and trenches for centuries. The topsoil layer is clearly visible. Farmers use it to gauge the fertility of their soil.
We've had regional measurements as long as we've had farmers.

 

[Secret Chief]

"Farmers say they are losing crops to floods...

The provisional statistics are in line with long-term projections of warmer, wetter winters due to climate change.

The National Farmers' Union (NFU) says some farms in Lincolnshire are still underwater - and have been since October.

Provisional Met Office figures show it's been the eighth wettest winter on record for the UK overall."

Come on, it's just weather!

- England and Wales had warmest February on record