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I’m an American and I’m sad.

Nimos

Well-Known Member
We lost the war.
When I became an adult, I held anti war views and was against American troop presence abroad. I didn’t think we were the good guys.
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are.
Seeing all these Afghanis flee, seeing no women on the streets, seeing hundreds of people chasing that military airplane..... Seeing the Taliban in place of US. We lost the war, and it looks like it would’ve been better if we won. Perhaps we were the good guys.
There’s a lot of emotions. I’m sad. I’m ashamed my buddies went over there and I didn’t.
Americans (and allies), we lost the war. Are you saddened by it? I’m curious if there is a collective sadness in our countries, as we witness the trouble in Afghanistan. We all had a stake in the war.
Were we the good guys?
I read an interview with a danish soldier that was also there to help, who lost 4 friends I think it was. And his feeling about it was shame and pointlessness, I think he put it. They went there to help the Afghanis and to get rid of the Taliban and now everything is just, back to start or what to say. So he at least, gave the impression that he weren't to happy about it.

I do think most soldiers that go to war and do these things have a noble goal and hope that they will make a difference. But I personally couldn't do it, to me it smells to much of there being some other agenda, whether that is some power struggle, economic gain or whatever. I for the most part don't get the impression that its to help make the world a better place, that is just the excuse used to convince people, so they support it.

I respect the soldiers whos intentions are good for wanting to help, but I do think they for the most part are merely pawns in some big political none sense showdown.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are.

Agreed. It's been that way since WWII ended. This whole idea about patriotism, freedom and democracy is a ruse to get people to risk their lives for American business interests. It's the same thing I see women who want a man to kill their husband for them do, tugging on heartstrings with lies of beatings and rapes to work up some green young man to into a chivalous but violent frenzy. Works there, too. So, the soldier comes home missing a leg, and the young romantic fool goes to prison for life.

I’m ashamed my buddies went over there and I didn’t.

They were deceived, you weren't. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

Any attacks on American soil since 9/11?

Uh, yeah. There was just an American terrorist attack on the US Capitol. They're anticipating more domestic terrorism on 9/11.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Why do we want to change them, though? Let countries govern themselves however they like, as long as it's not threatening anyone else. Not every nation needs to be the USA.
I agree... not everyone need to be like the US and trying to build a US culture in a Middle Eastern culture is next to impossible.

However, and in IMV, it eventually comes back to us. Like WWI and WWII and as well as their (Islamic) view of Big and Little Satan (US and Israel)- evil doesn't stop being evil until it is forcibly stopped (unfortunately).

IMV, as we saw in the last effort, they are trying to usher in the final dominion of the Islamic faith through war. So in Afghanistan it will be "regroup, restock and attack the next country until they have final dominion.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Terrorism in the United States - Wikipedia

Islamist extremism
  • September 11 attacks, 2001
    • (New York City): Hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing 2,606 when the towers collapsed. More than 6,000 people were injured.
    • (Washington, DC): Nearly 200 people are killed when hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
    • (Shanksville, PA): Forty passengers are killed after hijackers attempt to steer a plane into the U.S. Capitol building.
  • June 1, 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting, (Little Rock, AR): A Man shoots a local soldier to death inside a recruiting center explicitly in the name of Allah.
  • November 5, 2009 Fort Hood shooting, Ft. Hood, Texas: A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah.
  • April 15, 2013 – Boston Marathon bombing (Boston, MA): Foreign-born Muslims detonate two bombs packed with ball bearings at the Boston Marathon, killing three people and causing several more to lose limbs.
  • September 25, 2014 – Vaughan Foods beheading incident, (Moore, OK): A Sharia advocate beheads a woman after calling for Islamic terror and posting an Islamist beheading photo.
  • July 16, 2015 Chattanooga shootings, Chattanooga, Tennessee: A Muslim commits a shooting spree at a recruiting center at a strip mall and a naval center, leaving five soldiers dead at the latter location.
  • November 4, 2015 – University of California, Merced stabbing attack by Islamist extremist
  • December 2, 2015 San Bernardino attack, San Bernardino, California: A couple opens fire at a Christmas party, leaving fourteen dead.
  • January 7, 2016 - Shooting of Jesse Hartnett, Philadelphia police officer Jesse Hartnett is ambushed by a gunman who later pledged allegiance to ISIS.
  • February 11, 2016 – Ohio restaurant machete attack by Islamist extremist
  • June 12, 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting, Orlando, Florida: Omar Mateen shoots and kills 49 people and injures 58 more at a gay bar, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history at the time.
  • November 28, 2016 – Ohio State University attack, Columbus, Ohio: A Somalian student, Abdul Artan, who came to the U.S. as a refugee, intentionally rammed a car into pedestrians on a busy campus sidewalk on Monday morning and then began slashing passers-by with a butcher knife, the authorities said, injuring 11 students and faculty and staff members.
  • October 31, 2017 – 2017 New York City truck attack, New York City: 29-year-old Sayfullo Habibullaevich Saipov rented a Home Depot pickup truck and intentionally drove it through a bicycle path. He crashed into a school bus and then exited the vehicle wielding look-a-like weapons. He was shot by NYPD. 8 people were killed and 12 were injured.
  • December 6, 2019 - Naval Air Station Pensacola shooting, Pensacola, Florida: A second lieutenant of the Saudi Royal Air Force training at the Naval Air Station in Pensacola opened fire in one of the classroom buildings killing 3 and wounding 8 others before being shot dead by responding police officers.
  • May 21, 2020 - Corpus Christi, Texas: At the Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Adam Alsahi crashed through a northern perimeter gate at NAS Corpus Christi, activating vehicle barriers. The driver then got out and opened fire before being shot and killed. A Navy police officer was shot but was protected by a ballistic vest. Alsahi had expressed support for terrorist networks including ISIS. The FBI announced the incident as terrorism-related.[211]
This one was especially bad...

June 12, 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting, Orlando, Florida: Omar Mateen shoots and kills 49 people and injures 58 more at a gay bar, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history at the time.
Note how many of these were lone shooters inspired by Al Qaida or ISIS/ISIL propaganda on the Internet, rather than acts of oganized terror cells as happened in Europe during the early 2000s. In many ways, I would argue, these cases are more typical of the general American culture of going postal rather than genuinely politically motivated terrorism.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
We lost the war.
When I became an adult, I held anti war views and was against American troop presence abroad. I didn’t think we were the good guys.
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are

You are correct.

We spent billions of dollars and countless lives in Iraq, and the mindset of the people there is no different now. They have their ways.
And we have no right trying to change them.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Note how many of these were lone shooters inspired by Al Qaida or ISIS/ISIL propaganda on the Internet, rather than acts of oganized terror cells as happened in Europe during the early 2000s. In many ways, I would argue, these cases are more typical of the general American culture of going postal rather than genuinely politically motivated terrorism.

I don't know if I'd just dismiss it as people going postal, as there does seem to be common themes. It does seem to be a home grown, cultural issue, though. This is why the idea of "fighting them on their shores so they don't come here" doesn't make any sense. 9/11 didn't happen because terrorists didn't fear us. It happened because we were cocky and got caught with our pants down. They exploited a weakness that we were too naive and arrogant to do something about even though we knew it could happen. Remember how airport security was pre 9/11 vs. post 9/11?

This situation isn't unique, and it's not limited to national security or terrorism. we don't address potential problems as a species until serious damage is done. We are reactionary creatures, even when we have sufficient foresight and know better. We did this with the River Thames. We did this with the Dust Bowl. We do this now with Climate change. We wait until a potential problem causes horrible, irreversible damage, and then we take measures to address the issue. Even if we know something bad will happen, we ride out our inaction as long as we can first.

Not too bright. o_O
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We lost the war.
When I became an adult, I held anti war views and was against American troop presence abroad. I didn’t think we were the good guys.
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are.
Seeing all these Afghanis flee, seeing no women on the streets, seeing hundreds of people chasing that military airplane..... Seeing the Taliban in place of US. We lost the war, and it looks like it would’ve been better if we won. Perhaps we were the good guys.
There’s a lot of emotions. I’m sad. I’m ashamed my buddies went over there and I didn’t.
Americans (and allies), we lost the war. Are you saddened by it? I’m curious if there is a collective sadness in our countries, as we witness the trouble in Afghanistan. We all had a stake in the war.
Were we the good guys?
I don't know what the solution is but I am hugely sad and somewhat ashamed to be an American who has left all those people behind. :(
Every time I watch the news I cry. :cry:
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
I've found it very helpful to listen to the voices of troops who were there. Here are some voices:

What Americans never understood or were never told about Afghanistan
I once upon a time was a member of the IC long since removed. I assist veterans like myself in navigating the VA for benefits many from Afghanistan.
The lie that has been and is still being told is there is a difference between the Taliban, ISIS and Al Queda. To put it in perspective that’s like saying there is a difference between the Proud Boys, KKK and 3%ers. The goals by all of them is the same to establish a Caliphate.

When we pushed the active fighters to Pakistan we see lines on a map and thought we were accomplishing something. We see distinctions between the groups that fundamentally don’t exist. We trained and gave arms to men that had/have no problem deceiving those that were intentionally ignorant about allegiances. The Afghan Army was always a paper army as long as we kept paying them. Were there some that had our interests in mind sure but never the majority and those tended to die in the fighting.

The Taliban and AQ/ISIS never really left they just changed uniform to appease us and wait knowing we would eventually leave. Our leaders never understood who they were dealing with. The reason everything seemed to fall so fast was it was never real in the first place. Once we “left” and stopped paying a huge chunk of the army just switched back into their old uniform now armed with all the guns and equipment we trained them with.

Afghanistan wasn’t lost it was never real to begin with and once you understand that everything else makes sense.


Boy howdy am I having a lot of feelings about Afghanistan today
I deployed there twice--once in 2008 and once in 2009-10
It was already obvious that the Taliban would sweep through the very instant we left
And here we are today


I know how bad the Taliban is. I know what they do to women and little boys. I know what they’re going to do to the interpreters and the people who cooperated with us, it’s awful, it’s bad, but we are leaving, and all I feel is grim relief.

This is what I remember:

I remember Afghanistan as a dusty beige nightmare of a place full of proud, brave people who did not ******* want us there. We called them Hajjis and worse and they were better than we were, braver and stronger and smarter.

I remember going through the phones of the people we detained and finding clip after clip of Bollywood musicals, women singing in fields of flowers. Rarely did I find anything incriminating.

I remember finding propaganda footage cut together from the Soviet invasion and our own Operation Enduring Whatever. I remember laughing about how stupid the Afghans were to not know we aren’t the Russians and then, eventually, realizing that I was the stupid one.

I remember how every year the US would have to decide how to deal with the opium fields. There were a few options. You could leave the fields alone, and then the Taliban would shake the farmers down and use the money to buy weapons. Or, you could carpet bomb the fields, and then the farmers would join the Taliban for reasons that, to me, seem obvious.

The third option, and the one we went for while I was there, was to give the farmers fertilizer as an incentive to grow wheat instead of opium poppy. The farmers then sold the fertilizer to the Taliban, who used it to make explosives for IEDs that could destroy a million dollar MRAP and maim everyone inside.

I remember we weren’t allowed to throw batteries away because people who worked on base would go through the trash and collect hundreds of dead batteries, wire them together so they had just enough juice for one charge, and use that charge to detonate an IED.

I remember the look on my roommate’s face after she got back from cutting the dead bodies of two soldiers out of an HMMWV that got blown up by an IED that I have always imagined was made with fertilizer from an opium farmer and detonated with a hundred thrown-out batteries.

I remember an Afghan kid who worked in the DFAC (cafeteria) who we called Cowboy. He always wore this cowboy hat and an “I’m with stupid” t-shirt someone had given him, always with a big smile, high school age.

Cowboy was a good student. His family, who all worked on base, was incredibly proud of him. He wanted to go to college in America. But there weren’t colleges that took Afghans, the education system was too ****. No program to help kids like him. I looked.

I wonder if he’s dead now, for serving us food and dreaming of something different.

But if Cowboy is dead then he died a long time ago, and if Cowboy is dead it’s our fault for going there in the first place, giving his family the option of trusting us when we are the least trustworthy people on the planet.

We use people up and throw them away like it’s nothing.

And now, finally, we are leaving and the predictable thing is happening. The Taliban is surging in and taking it all back. They were always going to do this, because they have a thing you cannot buy or train, they have patience and a bloody-mindedness that warrants more respect than we ever gave them.

I am Team Get The **** Out Of Afghanistan which, as a friend pointed out to me today, has always been Team Taliban. It’s Team Taliban or Team Stay Forever.

There is no third team.

And so I sit here, reading these sad ******* articles and these horrified social media posts about the suffering in Afghanistan and the horror of the encroaching Taliban and how awful it is that this is happening but I can’t stop feeling this grim happiness, like, finally, you *******, finally you have to face the thing Afghanistan has always been. You can’t keep lying to yourself about what you sent us into.

No more blown up soldiers. No more Bollywood videos on phones whose owners are getting shipped god knows where. No more hypocrisy.

No more pretending it meant anything. It didn’t.

It didn’t mean a ******* thing.

Afghanistan: The Taliban Victory in a Global Context
An Anti-Imperial Perspective from a Veteran of the US Occupation

Based on what I saw, US counterterrorism operations are chiefly about creating markets for US military technologies and products and securing resources for the US empire. For 20 years, we propped up local and regional warlords, giving them weapons, money, and arms so they wouldn’t attack our forces. We green-lit their death squads and called them the Afghan Local Police. Working at senior-echelon levels, I watched both ranking officers and junior soldiers scramble to pad their résumés in hopes of becoming mercenaries for the companies and agencies that were actually running the show. Generals made careers and went on to be employed by those companies or the Department of Defense/Intelligence Community. From Syria and Iraq to Yemen and all across Africa, throughout our 800 military bases, I do not know of a single military mission that is chiefly focused on creating peace and stability. . . .

Now that the occupation has ended, an entire generation of US military veterans will be forced to question what it was all for. All I can do is ask why it took them so long to arrive at that question. It was always evident, all around us.

Throughout my time in Afghanistan, we never controlled territory outside of our bases and outposts—and we often found the enemy inside of our own walls. The Taliban ran a successful counter-insurgency for twenty years. They maintained a shadow government, collected taxes, settled social, cultural, and economic disputes, and maneuvered and captured territory, biding their time all the while.

Why was the Taliban able to wait out the occupation and recapture power so easily?

The Taliban benefitted from the tribal and ethnic structures of Afghanistan, a complex web of allegiances and social and cultural bonds that US/NATO forces were never entirely able to understand. Afghanistan, like other nation-states of the former British Empire, was created without consideration of ethnic and religious demographics. . . .



Much more at the link. This has been 100 years in the making, the West did this, we have to be accountable.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
We lost the war.
When I became an adult, I held anti war views and was against American troop presence abroad. I didn’t think we were the good guys.
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are.
Seeing all these Afghanis flee, seeing no women on the streets, seeing hundreds of people chasing that military airplane..... Seeing the Taliban in place of US. We lost the war, and it looks like it would’ve been better if we won. Perhaps we were the good guys.
There’s a lot of emotions. I’m sad. I’m ashamed my buddies went over there and I didn’t.
Americans (and allies), we lost the war. Are you saddened by it? I’m curious if there is a collective sadness in our countries, as we witness the trouble in Afghanistan. We all had a stake in the war.
Were we the good guys?
It sucks, but it effects me none.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You are correct.

We spent billions of dollars and countless lives in Iraq, and the mindset of the people there is no different now. They have their ways.
And we have no right trying to change them.
How do you address the mindset that they will force the world to become Muslim or die?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We lost the war.

Technically speaking, that's not really true, unless people were thinking that it was America's intention to annex Afghanistan and make it a permanent US territory. That was never an option. It was yet another case where America won on the battlefield, but lost at the diplomatic table. The biggest losers in all of this would appear to be America's intelligence community, the same bunch who gave us the "black ops" and have made a bad name for themselves and given America a tainted reputation around the world.

This would be a good time to clean house in the CIA and the NSA, actually. The media and public might be looking for a scapegoat right now, and perhaps it's time to get rid of the malignant, rogue influences which have festered in our government since World War 2.

When I became an adult, I held anti war views and was against American troop presence abroad. I didn’t think we were the good guys.
American troops are victims of war, just as much as the Afghanis are.
Seeing all these Afghanis flee, seeing no women on the streets, seeing hundreds of people chasing that military airplane..... Seeing the Taliban in place of US. We lost the war, and it looks like it would’ve been better if we won. Perhaps we were the good guys.
There’s a lot of emotions. I’m sad. I’m ashamed my buddies went over there and I didn’t.
Americans (and allies), we lost the war. Are you saddened by it? I’m curious if there is a collective sadness in our countries, as we witness the trouble in Afghanistan. We all had a stake in the war.
Were we the good guys?

I don't really see the world in terms of "good guys" or "bad guys." I never really believed a lot of the propaganda about America, whether it's Manifest Destiny, American Dream, Arsenal of Democracy, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. However, strictly speaking, governments were designed to protect the interests of and carry out the will of their constituency - and most governments, in one or another, will attempt to justify their actions within this context.

The US military did manage to take out Bin Laden. I think it might have been better if they had captured him and took him to trial, as opposed to killing him outright. But either way, I guess you could say we "won" on that count, for whatever that was worth. That was the original reason for going in to Afghanistan in the first place. We should have pulled out right then and there. After that, there was no clear reason for staying, nor were there any clear objectives laid out as conditions for our withdrawal.

If America's goal was to establish a pro-US puppet government in Kabul, then that goal was not attained, so one could correctly say we "lost" on that point. But this game of using proxies and puppet governments to do our dirty work for us has got to stop. I think this past week has demonstrated that no one is fooled by our politicians' or other officials' BS anymore. They're not going to follow any puppet governments or believe any of the cheerleading propaganda that America is famous for. They fooled us, but we didn't fool any of them.

What I've tried to do is separate the politics and propaganda from "America," the country itself - the place where I was born and raised. We have a history - a lot of it good, a lot of it bad.

America wasn't really "defeated" in the strictest sense. Germany after World War 2 - that's what "defeated" would look like in my mind, but it's nothing like that for America. We still are here, and they're still over there. They're not coming here. If there's any threat to America, it probably comes from within.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Occupying another country rarely ever works in the long run as it's their country and they live there, thus not ours nor do we live anywhere near by. Yes, we had the right to attack their terrorist bases after 9-11, but we then went too far.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Technically speaking, that's not really true, unless people were thinking that it was America's intention to annex Afghanistan and make it a permanent US territory. That was never an option. It was yet another case where America won on the battlefield, but lost at the diplomatic table. The biggest losers in all of this would appear to be America's intelligence community, the same bunch who gave us the "black ops" and have made a bad name for themselves and given America a tainted reputation around the world.

This would be a good time to clean house in the CIA and the NSA, actually. The media and public might be looking for a scapegoat right now, and perhaps it's time to get rid of the malignant, rogue influences which have festered in our government since World War 2.



I don't really see the world in terms of "good guys" or "bad guys." I never really believed a lot of the propaganda about America, whether it's Manifest Destiny, American Dream, Arsenal of Democracy, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. However, strictly speaking, governments were designed to protect the interests of and carry out the will of their constituency - and most governments, in one or another, will attempt to justify their actions within this context.

The US military did manage to take out Bin Laden. I think it might have been better if they had captured him and took him to trial, as opposed to killing him outright. But either way, I guess you could say we "won" on that count, for whatever that was worth. That was the original reason for going in to Afghanistan in the first place. We should have pulled out right then and there. After that, there was no clear reason for staying, nor were there any clear objectives laid out as conditions for our withdrawal.

If America's goal was to establish a pro-US puppet government in Kabul, then that goal was not attained, so one could correctly say we "lost" on that point. But this game of using proxies and puppet governments to do our dirty work for us has got to stop. I think this past week has demonstrated that no one is fooled by our politicians' or other officials' BS anymore. They're not going to follow any puppet governments or believe any of the cheerleading propaganda that America is famous for. They fooled us, but we didn't fool any of them.

What I've tried to do is separate the politics and propaganda from "America," the country itself - the place where I was born and raised. We have a history - a lot of it good, a lot of it bad.

America wasn't really "defeated" in the strictest sense. Germany after World War 2 - that's what "defeated" would look like in my mind, but it's nothing like that for America. We still are here, and they're still over there. They're not coming here. If there's any threat to America, it probably comes from within.

So you mean America lost the "Battle"
However the "War" is not going America's way either.

But then who is actually the enemy?
Is it Islam or just some Islamic countries?
Is it China Or Russia.?
Why does America have so many enemies?
Does it need to be at war with the world to justify itself?
Trump's take was was America First and everyone else nowhere.
Biden must have some sort of List. based on his own prejudices. but seems little better.
 
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