I almost choked to death on pizza!

[TagliatelliMonster]

And, yet, the issue is not chewing your food before swallowing...

It's not, as has already been addressed. Yet you continue to repeat this falsehood.

But even if I'ld ignore the mistake and assume your statement to be true. Then still it is very bad design.

Let's draw an analogy.
An engineer at Microsoft is in charge of the disc drive in Xbox. The way he designs it, it works fine if you put the blue ray in with the right side up. If you put it in in reverse, the Xbox will explode violently and kill you if you stand to close.

Do you think Microsoft, or this engineer, would get away with "the issues is not that the xbox can explode... the issue is that you guys need to put the disc in with the right side up."?


In reality it would never get that far.
Because authorities wouldn't allow that xbox to be sold.
In reality it would never even get that far either.
Because quality control at microsoft will fire the guy faster then he can say "sorry I'll fix it".

Which bring us back to a full circle... is crashing your car driving 150 mph around a corner a design problem or a improper utilization problem.

Case solved.

Not so much "case solved" as "head launched firmly into the ground"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And, yet, no one has come up with a better model

Dolphins.

No... I believe we have the best engineering model possible.

Only because this is a requirement in your religious belief, which requires you to believe that god created everything and that god is perfect and that therefor everything is perfect.

There is no reasoning or well thought out argument here.

All there is, is a priori assumption.

This is a classic case of trying to paint the bullseye around the arrow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evolution cheated you, too. Why didn’t humans keep the gills or holes in their necks?

Because it takes energy to maintain structures. Critters that do not waste energy on gills do better on land than critters with both lungs and gills.

 

[Kenny]

In my opinion (something I, at least, am entirely willing to admit and put forth, unlike some people), you are supporting a less than desirable model, and I am trying to persuade you to see my side. That's why we're having the conversation at all, isn't it? You have your side to go to bat for (albeit a side with very little in the way of observational support), and I have mine. What did you think was going on here? I understand that you think in absolutes - like "Ken is right, and what he believes is true, and anyone who believes otherwise is against the truth" but some of us do understand that it is the most accurate model we can choose from that is the best that we can go with at any moment. You don't get it. I understand, as you have made that abundantly clear. Abundantly. It isn't in any way admirable, but it is, at the very least, clear.

OK... it didn't sound like an opinion. I'm find with you having a viewpoint.

I have no problem with being wrong... I just don't see a viable alternative.

And what "purpose" is that for humans, Ken? You've got this all figured out, have you? Even you just talking in terms of humans having "a purpose" is ridiculous.

Why not?

Have you no imagination? Perhaps your God doesn't either?

I have a great imagination. And, apparently, God does too. Have you seen the variety of all that we see.

 

[tas8831]

This is truly horrendous...

... the magisterium of the Church teaches about original sin, which proceeds from a sin truly committed by one Adam, and which is transmitted to all by generation, and exists in each one as his own." (Humani Generis, 1950)

And concerning animals I hold that death entered material creation through humanity...

So is demonstrated even a corruption of the other animals through us.

Now if this is in fact false and they, including our Church, are all in error, I'd like a demonstration of this ...

If it is not obvious that the notion of eternal punishment - to include non-humans - for the 'sins' of the first dust-man is a horrific, sickening, illogical, immoral act, then no 'demonstration' would suffice.

I truly believe that such beliefs are the result of some mass delusion or mass mental illness. This is truly repulsive to me.

 

[tas8831]

Evolution cheated you, too. Why didn’t humans keep the gills or holes in their necks?

Why would they?
If the Designer was so great, why aren't we all able to fly and go under water and be smart?

 

[Kenny]

You asked for an engineering solution and two pipes is the solution. Moving the goal post to new problems does not negate that solution. A designer starting from scratch would engineer it so there was no problem.

No... when you engineer a product, you look at possible situations that would make it not workable.

If you don't consider the difficulties of two pipes then it would be like saying "these are great engineering possibilities for airplanes"

 

[ratiocinator]

No... when you engineer a product, you look at possible situations that would make it not workable.

Except you haven't shown that it's not workable, you've just brought up another problem with the current bad design (that our noses get blocked up when we get certain viral infections).

 

[Firelight]

Why would they?
If the Designer was so great, why aren't we all able to fly and go under water and be smart?

Did you read the OP? To have a secondary way to breathe and keep from choking to death! Evolution is supposed to provide what the organism needs in order to survive.

Your second question is irrelevant to choking to death.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Did you read the OP? To have a secondary way to breathe and keep from choking to death! Evolution is supposed to provide what the organism needs in order to survive.

No, that's not exactly what evolution is about.

Having said that, there are many "problems", from a "design" point of view, with the human body plan. None of them are to such gravity that it inhibits the propagation of the species.

It's only a minority that chokes to death on food.
Not nearly enough to make it a selective pressure big enough for evolutionary mechanisms to act on it.

 

[Lain]

This is truly horrendous...

If it is not obvious that the notion of eternal punishment - to include non-humans - for the 'sins' of the first dust-man is a horrific, sickening, illogical, immoral act, then no 'demonstration' would suffice.

I truly believe that such beliefs are the result of some mass delusion or mass mental illness. This is truly repulsive to me.

There is no eternal punishment for non-humans (referring to the irrational animals). But your opinion has been noted.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did you read the OP? To have a secondary way to breathe and keep from choking to death! Evolution is supposed to provide what the organism needs in order to survive.

Your second question is irrelevant to choking to death.

Nope, that is not what evolution does. Evolution has to build on what already exists. That can result in some very bad engineering.

A designed product can avoid all of those problems by starting over from scratch. Evolution cannot do that. Creationists believe in a very poor designer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no eternal punishment for non-humans (referring to the irrational animals). But your opinion has been noted.

In the Adam and Eve myth animals suffered too. Many Christians do not understand it. There was no death among other animals either before the "fall".

 

[Lain]

In the Adam and Eve myth animals suffered too. Many Christians do not understand it. There was no death among other animals either before the "fall".

I do understand that, it is a point I believe I made in this very thread, and if not just yesterday I made a long post arguing this point against another Christian who was denying it on another forum. I fully believe there was no death in plants, cells, the irrational animals, before the Fall. I am just saying that their suffering is not eternal, it has an end, and they will be recapitulated to never die or suffer again when the sons of God are glorified, as St. Paul says:

"For the eagerly expecting creation awaits eagerly the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation has been subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its servility to decay, into the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans together and suffers agony together until now. Not only this, but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves while we await eagerly our adoption, the redemption of our body."

When I see factory farming, wild animal suffering, pollution, I think "look at what we've done, how evil we are that those who do not even sin suffer because of us."

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do understand that, it is a point I believe I made in this very thread, and if not just yesterday I made a long post arguing this point against another Christian who was denying it on another forum. I fully believe there was no death in plants, cells, the irrational animals, before the Fall. I am just saying that their suffering is not eternal, it has an end, and they will be recapitulated to never die or suffer again when the sons of God are glorified, as St. Paul says:

"For the eagerly expecting creation awaits eagerly the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation has been subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its servility to decay, into the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans together and suffers agony together until now. Not only this, but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves while we await eagerly our adoption, the redemption of our body."

When I see factory farming, wild animal suffering, pollution, I think "look at what we've done, how evil we are that those who do not even sin suffer because of us."

Animal life cannot exist without death. And we know that there was death for more than a billion years before people showed up.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

OK... it didn't sound like an opinion. I'm find with you having a viewpoint.

I have no problem with being wrong... I just don't see a viable alternative.

You know... the fact that you can't "see a viable alternative" isn't lack of imagination - You're right. It is a stark inability to give even one inch to the idea that maybe it isn't designed the best it could be. You're not even willing to entertain the thought specifically because of who you believe the "Designer" to be. That is pure, unadulterated bias.

Why not?

Why not what? Why not consider that human beings have a "purpose?" The only "purpose" I feel one can objectively assign to humans is procreation. Outside of that, what can you possibly point to as a universal purpose to a human being having been born? Granted, some people don't even go on to procreate, but I don't think that affects the idea that a human being born is born with an assumption that they live and produce more life. The entire system we can observe is bent toward this goal/idea. Live long enough to create more of your kind. It is seen everywhere, and I believe that every positive adaptation can be boiled down to having been reached for that same exact "purpose." But beyond that? Is everyone meant to "follow the plan" Ken? What is the plan? How can we gain access to it to make sure we're on track? I'm sure you have answers for all of this - but they have ZERO ties to any demonstrable aspect of reality. You can't witness or observe anything you'd bring to the table for this except as an abstract, twice or more removed from the actual subject matter one CAN observe. It's just ridiculous.

 

[tas8831]

Did you read the OP?

Yes - did you? If so, what did your question:

"Why didn’t humans keep the gills or holes in their necks?"

have to do with it?

Besides unwittingly admitting that you are clueless re: the development of the pharyngeal apparatus?

To have a secondary way to breathe and keep from choking to death!

How would gills help that?

Evolution is supposed to provide what the organism needs in order to survive.

I thought organisms were supposed to have perfect Design via Jesus?

Your second question is irrelevant to choking to death.

But it is pertinent to your implications, no?

 

[tas8831]

There is no eternal punishment for non-humans (referring to the irrational animals).

A large swath of humanity is made up of irrational animals. They tend to go to political rallies.

But your opinion has been noted.

Ah, so you accept the grotesque immorality or the concept of original sin.

That is a start, I suppose.

 

[KWED]

Yes, I believe in intelligent design. I also believe that man, sometimes, can be so ignorant as to violate simple truths that intelligence has designed to prevent hurt.
How Many Times Should You Chew Your Food?

So god deliberately designed the human body with a fatal flaw intended to weed out lazy, hurried or distracted people, and small children, with a pretty unpleasant death?
Sounds legit.

 

[tas8831]

I do understand that, it is a point I believe I made in this very thread, and if not just yesterday I made a long post arguing this point against another Christian who was denying it on another forum. I fully believe there was no death in plants, cells, the irrational animals, before the Fall. I am just saying that their suffering is not eternal, it has an end, and they will be recapitulated to never die or suffer again when the sons of God are glorified, as St. Paul says:

"For the eagerly expecting creation awaits eagerly the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation has been subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its servility to decay, into the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans together and suffers agony together until now. Not only this, but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves while we await eagerly our adoption, the redemption of our body."

When I see factory farming, wild animal suffering, pollution, I think "look at what we've done, how evil we are that those who do not even sin suffer because of us."

Sounds like gibberish.