I and the father are one.

[YoursTrue]

Let’s hear (read) what Muffled comes up with - gonna be very interesting specially as I have already pointed out their favourite false strategy!!

I can't see that if the two are one it's like playing ping pong, as if one bats the ball to the other and asks and the other answers and vice versa.

 

[Soapy]

I can't see that if the two are one it's like playing ping pong, as if one bats the ball to the other and asks and the other answers and vice versa.

But sooner or later one misses or hits the net.

In between, watch out for the ‘spin’ that the trinitarian puts on the ball!

 

[rational experiences]

One. Number 1.

Notice a word is not a number?

The teaching.

Science doing evil against gods stone rock were men using numbers.

All men were babies as never could you ever be first our first father human now.

A son baby is as one with father man in one body.

As baby body becomes a father man.

Question as philosophy is involved in their using theoried....

How did you leave either body when you are both in one body?

Harmed life body of adult losing babies genesis health was his answer....no man is God.

As one God was rock first.

Word one not number 1.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The following is from a Shiite brother (not me):

Salaam Aleikum,

Famous Gospel verse from John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

But it does not stop here, the most crucial part is the next verses where Jesus (عليه السلام) will clarify what does he mean by it.

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

- Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.

I and The Father are one

This is equivalent in the Qur'an when God says:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80

Your friend was not misguided nor was he misled, nor does he speak out of personal desire. It is but an inspiration being inspired. 53:2-4

Another interesting to notice is the how Jews reacted on the matter. They almost right away took the stone and wanted to kill him, because they thought that he is saying that Jesus and God are One in Essence. Jesus denies it and explained them by referring the psalms 82:6 which is understood by jews clearly.

Qur'an want to clarify and make sure that Psalms 82:6 does not mean to take it literally but as in figurative:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

Also, keep in mind, the Koine Greek language in which this was written, did not have the indefinite articles “a” or “an” as in English. So it could be rendered that they were saying to Jesus, ‘you make yourself “a” god.’ (No definite article is quoted there, No “you make yourself THE God”.)

And apparently ‘a god’ is what those Jews meant, because Jesus’ counter reply was to quote Ps. 82:6, referring to where others were called “gods.” Not THE God.
Otherwise, Jesus’ counter argument would have no meaning. It would not apply.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The following is from a Shiite brother (not me):

Salaam Aleikum,

Famous Gospel verse from John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

But it does not stop here, the most crucial part is the next verses where Jesus (عليه السلام) will clarify what does he mean by it.

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

- Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.

I and The Father are one

This is equivalent in the Qur'an when God says:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80

Your friend was not misguided nor was he misled, nor does he speak out of personal desire. It is but an inspiration being inspired. 53:2-4

Another interesting to notice is the how Jews reacted on the matter. They almost right away took the stone and wanted to kill him, because they thought that he is saying that Jesus and God are One in Essence. Jesus denies it and explained them by referring the psalms 82:6 which is understood by jews clearly.

Qur'an want to clarify and make sure that Psalms 82:6 does not mean to take it literally but as in figurative:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

Regarding John 10:30…
Jesus later explained what he meant by saying “one”, @ John 17:20-22.

 

[Soapy]

Also, keep in mind, the Koine Greek language in which this was written, did not have the indefinite articles “a” or “an” as in English. So it could be rendered that they were saying to Jesus, ‘you make yourself “a” god.’ (No definite article is quoted there, No “you make yourself THE God”.)

And apparently ‘a god’ is what those Jews meant, because Jesus’ counter reply was to quote Ps. 82:6, referring to where others were called “gods.” Not THE God.
Otherwise, Jesus’ counter argument would have no meaning. It would not apply.

I am confused here:

Who is claiming that Jesus called himself ‘The God’, the One God believed on by the Jews?

Or is it that the Jews somehow believed that the ‘Son of A GOD’ is ‘A GOD’?

I cannot see the former can in any way be what the Jews were saying. These were staunch and fierce believers in the God of their ancestors who declared himself as their ONLY GOD. It could never be that these Jews foresaw a BINITY in their ONE GOD whereby God is both ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ (unlike TRINITY which includes a third person: the Spirit of God which introduces a further contradiction in that there is ‘a Spirit of God’, ‘a Son of God’ BUT NOT ‘a Father of God’!!)

What I see is what I hear being said: Jesus explains that ‘Son of God’ is one who does the works of God… which is what he is doing! That ‘Sons’ of God means what the term ‘God’ means : ‘Mighty in power’. And so we’re those who head the word of God and do that word: namely the holy Prophets and the angels (angels, we know already, are called ‘Sons of God’ yet are not cursed by Jews as being blasphemous!)

In my view, Jesus explains to the Jews that (as I said before) a ‘Son of God’ does the works of God. Holy Angels absolutely do the works of God and are therefore referred to as ‘Sons of God’. Jesus says that if the Jews are not going to believe that ‘God is his Father’ (making him a Son of God*) then at least believe that he is ‘a son of God’ by virtue of him ‘Doing the works of God’ (which the Jews acknowledge that he IS doing!)

Further, scriptures also says that ‘All who are led by the spirit of God are children of God’… That says the same thing as ‘Being Sons of God for doing the works of God’!

Moreover, think think think… what is the MEANING of the word, “God”. Plough that back into the argument and you will see that the claim of Jesus being ‘GOD’ (and ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH, at that) makes no sense and is clearly a fallacy designed to claim a ‘Binity’ in the one God (again, I say, there is no hint of a third person in anything Jesus ever says nor what the Jews ever claimed so it must be asked how and where a third person got excluded in Jesus’utterings (E.g. “I and the Father are one”, ‘You [Father] are the only true God”, “I am going to the Father”, “Father, why have you abandoned me”, scriptures: ‘Seated at the right hand of power … at the right hand of the Father’…..)

 

[Muffled]

No!

God is a SPIRIT BEING. Even a Spirit Being has a SPIRIT of itself.

You are pandering to the temptation of the way scripture translators mistranslated certain words to cause confusion.

A ‘Spirit Being’: ‘God’ and ‘Angels’ are NONE PHYSICAL, IMMATERIAL, ENTITIES.. Spirit persons.

The manner of their BEHAVIOUR, thoughts, actions, Will, character, mood, emotion, attitude… is their SPIRIT.

I cannot understand how or why you are muddling the two meanings.

God sends His Will out into the world so whomever accepts it and holds to it will receive his grace.This is the SPIRIT OF GOD!

How can you confuse THE SPIRIT OF GOD with GOD being SPIRIT?

Nah! You just joshing!!!

I believe you make it sound like a spirit can have another separate spirit and that is not the case with God. The expression Spirit of God is used in the Bible but I suspect that is used for identity to differentiate between God and other spirits.

I believe I do no such thing. I understand scripture as the Holy Spirit guides me. Can you say the same?

I believe I do not see it that way. Spirit and spirits have attributes. I do believe intelligence is the main attribute.

I believe I am rational and you are confused. For a person who believes God is one you sure are working hard to make Him two.

 

[Muffled]

OK, let me try to understand this. When the son--Jesus--said the Father has given him authority, he means he's talking to himself? Or put another way, that he, Jesus (or the Father) gave the authority to himself?

I believe so. God does not share His authority.

 

[Muffled]

Bin there - dun that…. Titter….!
They answered that Jesus always had power and authority because he is the son and everything the Father has is his —- even before it was given to him - which they just said it wasn’t given to him….but jesus says it was!!!

I’ve said before (maybe not to you) but Trinitarians do not employ a feedback system in their arguments. A feedback system would show them exactly like above that they are out of sync with something they said before… No! It’s deliberate that they do this else they would have to admit they are in error!! So, in fact, they DO KNOW they are in error!

Yesterday I watched a video where a preacher was trying to answer a question about why we don’t pray to Jesus but to the Father only. His nut shell answer was that since Jesus is God when we pray to the Father we are praying through Jesus so Jesus hears our prayer - and concerning the Holy Spirit, well, HE PERSONALLY prays to [it]. No commitment there… no answer - Truth doesn’t dither - but he did. In fact, if you listened carefully, he doesn’t actually answer the question. He does what many wily people do, particularly politicians, he creates his own question and then answers that… you’re not supposed to notice, though!! If what he was saying was true then there would be no need to waysway the question!

I believe Jesus did not say when that authority was given but I am sure it was at conception.

 

[Soapy]

I believe you make it sound like a spirit can have another separate spirit and that is not the case with God. The expression Spirit of God is used in the Bible but I suspect that is used for identity to differentiate between God and other spirits.

I believe I do no such thing. I understand scripture as the Holy Spirit guides me. Can you say the same?

I believe I do not see it that way. Spirit and spirits have attributes. I do believe intelligence is the main attribute.

I believe I am rational and you are confused. For a person who believes God is one you sure are working hard to make Him two.

No! What is happening is that Satan is seeing that you are reading the truth and is distracting you with nonesense.

I know what I’m writing and what I believe and there is nothing in what I say or believe that makes God two… My whole ethos is about God being ONE… the Father, and the Father alone.

God, he SENDS HIS SPIRIT todo his Will often through an agency. In time to come you will see Surgeons sending ‘Bots’ into a body to carry out operations. The ‘Bot’ is carrying out the Will of the Surgeon. In other words, the Spirit of the surgeon is in the ‘Bot’!!

We can already see motor cars transporting people autonomously by the Will of its maker. The passenger(s) requests (A Request is a ‘Prayer’ - look it up!!) it take them to their desired destination but the vehicle operates in the manner it was designed by its maker. If the passenger tries to make the vehicle do something it should not do (deliberately crash or take an unviable route) the vehicle will say: ‘Sorry, I am designed to deliver you safely from your source pointing to your destination - safely and timely. I cannot do something - it’s against the Will of my maker - to do something that is harmful or incorrect!’.

In other words, the spirit of God (through whatever media) will only carry out the Will of God. Now, it is a crude but still valid sentence that says, ‘God carried out the act’ and ‘His Spirit carried out the act’. That does not mean that there are TWO PERSONS!!!

If a manager sends an order to stop production (or whatever you like!) and sends that order (THE SPIRIT OF HIM!!) via a Supervising floor manager to the staff. Is the order from TWO PERSONS?

No! It is the SPIRIT OF THE MANAGER working through the supervisor!!

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe so. God does not share His authority.

Sigh...

 

[Soapy]

I believe Jesus did not say when that authority was given but I am sure it was at conception.

Sigh!!

 

[Soapy]

Also, keep in mind, the Koine Greek language in which this was written, did not have the indefinite articles “a” or “an” as in English. So it could be rendered that they were saying to Jesus, ‘you make yourself “a” god.’ (No definite article is quoted there, No “you make yourself THE God”.)

And apparently ‘a god’ is what those Jews meant, because Jesus’ counter reply was to quote Ps. 82:6, referring to where others were called “gods.” Not THE God.
Otherwise, Jesus’ counter argument would have no meaning. It would not apply.

Please also try to understand that ‘[a] God’ just means like:

• ‘A Mighty One’
• ‘A Heroic figure’
• ‘One in Authority [within a related field]’

Thus we can say, like:

• ‘A Judge is God [in his own courtroom]’
• ‘A Father is God [within his own household]’
• ‘A Principal is God [in his own School]’

Thus, concerning the related fields of ‘Gods’, we have YHWH saying:

• ‘I am God of all whom are called Gods’

meaning that YHWH is the MIGHTIEST (Almighty) of all who are called Mighty. - The authority over all who are given Authority!

So you are right that the Jews did not claim that Jesus was claiming to be saying that he IS ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH.

In fact, that’s not even close to what Jesus said: and he told them what he said:

• ‘I only said that God is my Father’

which means the same as:

• ‘I am the Son of God’

which reflects against the Jews whom he called;

• ‘Sons of your Father [Satan / the Devil]’

If you read carefully you will see the DEFINITION that Jesus states:

• ‘I am doing the works of my Father’

and:

• ‘You are doing the works of YOUR Father!’

Here, the definition is not that the ‘Son’ is a procreated offspring, but a spiritual follower of the relevant ‘Father’.

Thus: ‘All who are led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God’ —> ‘All who are led by the spirit of Satan are Sons of Satan’…

The Trinitarians try to claim Jesus was saying that he is God on a FALSE BASIS that:

• ‘Making himself equal to God’

is a JEWISH BELIEF that a Son is EQUAL TO HIS FATHER………!!

I have asked for clarity, qualifying verses from the Christian scriptures (and the Old Testament in particular), writings that show this, anything….. and so far no one has shown any evidence that there ever was such a claim made by Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, or Christians….

It seems that the claim is made only as a failed vain attempt to put false words in the mouth of the Jews.

At the most, it would be Pagan… since many such ones claim they are ‘Gods’ born in flesh from their ethereal spirit God parents; like in Egyptian and Greek Mythology.

But worse if all, for me, is how anyone can claim that anyone is EQUAL to the one who gave them life and sustains them!!? Even Jesus states that:

• ‘The Father is greater than I!”
• ‘The things you see me do are because of the Father working in me!’
• ‘The words I say are not mine but those of Him [the Father] who sent me!’

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Please also try to understand that ‘[a] God’ just means like:

• ‘A Mighty One’
• ‘A Heroic figure’
• ‘One in Authority [within a related field]’

Thus we can say, like:

• ‘A Judge is God [in his own courtroom]’
• ‘A Father is God [within his own household]’
• ‘A Principal is God [in his own School]’

Thus, concerning the related fields of ‘Gods’, we have YHWH saying:

• ‘I am God of all whom are called Gods’

meaning that YHWH is the MIGHTIEST (Almighty) of all who are called Mighty. - The authority over all who are given Authority!

So you are right that the Jews did not claim that Jesus was claiming to be saying that he IS ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH.

In fact, that’s not even close to what Jesus said: and he told them what he said:

• ‘I only said that God is my Father’

which means the same as:

• ‘I am the Son of God’

which reflects against the Jews whom he called;

• ‘Sons of your Father [Satan / the Devil]’

If you read carefully you will see the DEFINITION that Jesus states:

• ‘I am doing the works of my Father’

and:

• ‘You are doing the works of YOUR Father!’

Here, the definition is not that the ‘Son’ is a procreated offspring, but a spiritual follower of the relevant ‘Father’.

Thus: ‘All who are led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God’ —> ‘All who are led by the spirit of Satan are Sons of Satan’…

The Trinitarians try to claim Jesus was saying that he is God on a FALSE BASIS that:

• ‘Making himself equal to God’

is a JEWISH BELIEF that a Son is EQUAL TO HIS FATHER………!!

I have asked for clarity, qualifying verses from the Christian scriptures (and the Old Testament in particular), writings that show this, anything….. and so far no one has shown any evidence that there ever was such a claim made by Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, or Christians….

It seems that the claim is made only as a failed vain attempt to put false words in the mouth of the Jews.

At the most, it would be Pagan… since many such ones claim they are ‘Gods’ born in flesh from their ethereal spirit God parents; like in Egyptian and Greek Mythology.

But worse if all, for me, is how anyone can claim that anyone is EQUAL to the one who gave them life and sustains them!!? Even Jesus states that:

• ‘The Father is greater than I!”
• ‘The things you see me do are because of the Father working in me!’
• ‘The words I say are not mine but those of Him [the Father] who sent me!’

Yes, I agree. If the Bible was trying to say that Jesus was equal to God, then it would have called them brothers.
It doesn’t.

 

[Soapy]

Yes, I agree. If the Bible was trying to say that Jesus was equal to God, then it would have called them brothers.
It doesn’t.

But that doesn’t work either since there can only be One Almighty God. And beside(s) him there is no other God.

There can be no ‘Brother King’ (Brother God).

The trinity believer says that Jesus is EQUAL to God but that is realistically illogical, theological impossible, and Scripturally diabolical.

 

[Kenny]

The following is from a Shiite brother (not me):

Salaam Aleikum,

Famous Gospel verse from John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

But it does not stop here, the most crucial part is the next verses where Jesus (عليه السلام) will clarify what does he mean by it.

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

- Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.

I and The Father are one

This is equivalent in the Qur'an when God says:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80

Your friend was not misguided nor was he misled, nor does he speak out of personal desire. It is but an inspiration being inspired. 53:2-4

Another interesting to notice is the how Jews reacted on the matter. They almost right away took the stone and wanted to kill him, because they thought that he is saying that Jesus and God are One in Essence. Jesus denies it and explained them by referring the psalms 82:6 which is understood by jews clearly.

Qur'an want to clarify and make sure that Psalms 82:6 does not mean to take it literally but as in figurative:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

Although you have interpreted this scripture right right your application that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh is wrong as it is wrong to mine one scripture at the expense of all other scriptures.

To be equal with God is to make oneself God as it was written:

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

and a host of other scriptures.

"Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91" This would be a misapplication of what actually happened not to mention that we are also "begotten of God"

 

[Kenny]

John 10:9 I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

"I am the gate" + "I give eternal life" + "I and The Father are one" = polytheism.

I wouldn't agree any more than I would say I am "polyperson".

I am a spirit, I have a soul and I live in a body. My body is me but it is different from the me of my spirit which is different from the me of my soul.

I am simply made in His image and in His likeness... a tri-part being.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am simply made in His image and in His likeness... a tri-part being.

..Are you sure you haven't got three eyes?
You seem to see everything in terms of a trinity.

 

[Soapy]

Although you have interpreted this scripture right right your application that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh is wrong as it is wrong to mine one scripture at the expense of all other scriptures.

To be equal with God is to make oneself God as it was written:

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

and a host of other scriptures.

"Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91" This would be a misapplication of what actually happened not to mention that we are also "begotten of God"

Kenny, if you check carefully, you will see that the ‘making him equal with God’ is an ADDED TEXT.

There is no belief in ANY CULTURE that says that a Child is equal to his Parent.

And how could there ever be such an absurdity?

 

[Kenny]

..Are you sure you haven't got three eyes?
You seem to see everything in terms of a trinity.

I call it the Godhead.

But, yes, I have spiritual eyes, physical eyes and mental (thinking) eyes