I and the father are one.

[Kenny]

Kenny, if you check carefully, you will see that the ‘making him equal with God’ is an ADDED TEXT.

There is no belief in ANY CULTURE that says that a Child is equal to his Parent.

And how could there ever be such an absurdity?

You have the point in that there is not belief that a child is equal to his parent - in other words, he was God because a child is not equal to his parent.

If there was any misunderstanding in the texts, then it become very clear when it was written, "In the beginning was The Word, The Word was with God, The Word was God - and The Word was made flesh.

What throws us in a loop is our understanding of what is meant that Jesus was begotten of God and when and how that term is/was correctly applied.

 

[Soapy]

You have the point in that there is not belief that a child is equal to his parent - in other words, he was God because a child is not equal to his parent.

If there was any misunderstanding in the texts, then it become very clear when it was written, "In the beginning was The Word, The Word was with God, The Word was God - and The Word was made flesh.

What throws us in a loop is our understanding of what is meant that Jesus was begotten of God and when and how that term is/was correctly applied.

Kenny, Jesus was begotten of God when God said to him:

• “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11)
• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:5)

What context do you detect from the Hebrews verse? Is this not what a male adult would say to a male child as an ADOPTION DECLARATION?

This is a SPIRITUAL ADOPTION. It is not related to BIRTH or CREATION.

There are many examples of ‘Adoptions’ in the scriptures. Paul, for instance, BEGOT the runaway slave, ONESIMUS (Philemon 1).

And why did Paul do this?

Because Onesimus SO PLEASED Paul in carrying out everything that Paul taught, commanded, directed, asked of Onesimus….:

• Reminder Pointer: ‘You are my Son, Onesimus, in whom I am well pleased!’

And on the day Paul BEGOT Onesimus:

• ‘Onesimus, I have become a Father to you; and you have become a Son to me!’

See the parallel?

This is what it is to be ‘Begotten’.

Oh, and that John 1:1 thing… No! It is speaking of the Spirit of God. God spoke His word and it was done:

1. “Let there be light!” and so it was
2. “Let there be waters … “ and so it was
3. “Let the earth bring forth… “ and so it was

In fact, there was nothing created that was created that did not come from the mouth of God!

The term ‘God’ is a dual use word… It means

• ‘Mighty one’,
• ‘Greatest of all; Almighty’,
• ‘Heroic one’
• ‘Most Majestic one’

It is also a TITLE given to one who fits the bill:

• The Deity of the Jews (in fact all deities) is ENTITLED ‘[The] God [OF]….’

To the Jews, their Deity is the One God who created all things. To other belief systems there are many deities (and thus many Gods).

The title ‘God’ is therefore not exclusive to Jews. Nor is the title exclusive to a religious context:

• ‘A Judge is GOD in his courtroom’
• ‘A Principal is GOD in his School’
• ‘A Lion is considered the GOD of the animal kingdom’

Therefore, John 1:1 reads:

• “In the beginning was the word of God’ (context: The deity of the Jews)
• ‘And the word was with God’ (context: The word came from God: ‘Let there be light!’)
• ‘And the word was God’ (Context: The word the God of the Jews spoke WAS A MIGHTY / AN HEROIC / AN ALMIGHTY / A MAJESTIC WORD)

But also, Jesus was TAUGHT BY this deity GOD of the Jews… and what he was taught he RE-SPOKE to humanity:

• “The words you hear me speak ARE NOT MINE BUT THOSE OF HIM WHO SENT ME’
• “My Will is to do the Will of him who sent me!” (John 4:34 / John 6:38)

Jesus, at no time, EVER claimed to have created anything.

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, Jesus was begotten of God when God said to him:

• “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11)
• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:5)

What context do you detect from the Hebrews verse? Is this not what a male adult would say to a male child as an ADOPTION DECLARATION?

This is a SPIRITUAL ADOPTION. It is not related to BIRTH or CREATION.

There are many examples of ‘Adoptions’ in the scriptures. Paul, for instance, BEGOT the runaway slave, ONESIMUS (Philemon 1).

And why did Paul do this?

Because Onesimus SO PLEASED Paul in carrying out everything that Paul taught, commanded, directed, asked of Onesimus….:

• Reminder Pointer: ‘You are my Son, Onesimus, in whom I am well pleased!’

And on the day Paul BEGOT Onesimus:

• ‘Onesimus, I have become a Father to you; and you have become a Son to me!’

See the parallel?

This is what it is to be ‘Begotten’.

Oh, and that John 1:1 thing… No! It is speaking of the Spirit of God. God spoke His word and it was done:

1. “Let there be light!” and so it was
2. “Let there be waters … “ and so it was
3. “Let the earth bring forth… “ and so it was

In fact, there was nothing created that was created that did not come from the mouth of God!

The term ‘God’ is a dual use word… It means

• ‘Mighty one’,
• ‘Greatest of all; Almighty’,
• ‘Heroic one’
• ‘Most Majestic one’

It is also a TITLE given to one who fits the bill:

• The Deity of the Jews (in fact all deities) is ENTITLED ‘[The] God [OF]….’

To the Jews, their Deity is the One God who created all things. To other belief systems there are many deities (and thus many Gods).

The title ‘God’ is therefore not exclusive to Jews. Nor is the title exclusive to a religious context:

• ‘A Judge is GOD in his courtroom’
• ‘A Principal is GOD in his School’
• ‘A Lion is considered the GOD of the animal kingdom’

Therefore, John 1:1 reads:

• “In the beginning was the word of God’ (context: The deity of the Jews)
• ‘And the word was with God’ (context: The word came from God: ‘Let there be light!’)
• ‘And the word was God’ (Context: The word the God of the Jews spoke WAS A MIGHTY / AN HEROIC / AN ALMIGHTY / A MAJESTIC WORD)

But also, Jesus was TAUGHT BY this deity GOD of the Jews… and what he was taught he RE-SPOKE to humanity:

• “The words you hear me speak ARE NOT MINE BUT THOSE OF HIM WHO SENT ME’
• “My Will is to do the Will of him who sent me!” (John 4:34 / John 6:38)

Jesus, at no time, EVER claimed to have created anything.

I'm not saying there aren't different applications like unto examples you have given such as Onesimus.

Except your viewpoints violates John 1:1; Phil 2; Thomas declaration; Emmanuel title and so many more in reference to Jesus... so let's look at it differently where there is harmony in all scriptures:

It was declared way before your references:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, You are My Son; this day [I declare] I have begotten You.

As a God that calls those things that be no as though they were until you see what He said, it isn't always the moment He says it that declares that it was accomplished.

Notice what Revelation says: Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

He was "begotten" AFTER he died.

There are so many reasons why it had to be God (not to mention all the times that it was mentioned that he was God).

As I have mentioned so many times, Jesus is parenthetical to The Word and the risen King. The problem you are seeing is when you try to compare when The Word became flesh and not who he was from the beginning.

 

[Soapy]

I'm not saying there aren't different applications like unto examples you have given such as Onesimus.

Except your viewpoints violates John 1:1; Phil 2; Thomas declaration; Emmanuel title and so many more in reference to Jesus... so let's look at it differently where there is harmony in all scriptures:

It was declared way before your references:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, You are My Son; this day [I declare] I have begotten You.

As a God that calls those things that be no as though they were until you see what He said, it isn't always the moment He says it that declares that it was accomplished.

Notice what Revelation says: Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

He was "begotten" AFTER he died.

There are so many reasons why it had to be God (not to mention all the times that it was mentioned that he was God).

As I have mentioned so many times, Jesus is parenthetical to The Word and the risen King. The problem you are seeing is when you try to compare when The Word became flesh and not who he was from the beginning.

I don’t see that the Revelation verse says anything about what we are discussing.

And the verse in Psalms is a PROPHECY which is to David, but also to the coming Christ. It is to furnish what scripture says: ‘God says it BEFORE it is so no one can say otherwise’ (Psalm 33:9, paraphrased, which also applies to John 1:1 -‘God spoke it and it was!’)

The ‘Emmanuel’ title. What of it? A country is under attack by an enemy (Ukraine by Russia). The king (or President) of a mighty country sends aid to the beleaguered country. The people are extremely grateful and say:

• ‘[America] is with us!’

You are saying that the aid that is sent IS AMERICA???

No! It is the SPIRIT, the POWER, the ESSENCE of the American spirit that is there… the defence (or offence) weaponry.

So too, Jesus is there as the power of God (the spirit of God IN HIM: the Holy Spirit of God!)

God said that he would send a saviour. The people were looking out for that saviour while under the oppression of the Roman overlords. Then, suddenly, the saviour SENT BY GOD is there. The people are ecstatic and call out: ‘Glory to God: God is with us!’

Jesus does not glorify in the name: ‘Emmanuel’ because he, at no time, usurps the authority of ‘Him who sent me!’

 

[Kenny]

I don’t see that the Revelation verse says anything about what we are discussing.

And the verse in Psalms is a PROPHECY which is to David, but also to the coming Christ. It is to furnish what scripture says: ‘God says it BEFORE it is so no one can say otherwise’ (Psalm 33:9, paraphrased, which also applies to John 1:1 -‘God spoke it and it was!’)

The ‘Emmanuel’ title. What of it? A country is under attack by an enemy (Ukraine by Russia). The king (or President) of a mighty country sends aid to the beleaguered country. The people are extremely grateful and say:

• ‘[America] is with us!’

You are saying that the aid that is sent IS AMERICA???

No! It is the SPIRIT, the POWER, the ESSENCE of the American spirit that is there… the defence (or offence) weaponry.

So too, Jesus is there as the power of God (the spirit of God IN HIM: the Holy Spirit of God!)

God said that he would send a saviour. The people were looking out for that saviour while under the oppression of the Roman overlords. Then, suddenly, the saviour SENT BY GOD is there. The people are ecstatic and call out: ‘Glory to God: God is with us!’

Jesus does not glorify in the name: ‘Emmanuel’ because he, at no time, usurps the authority of ‘Him who sent me!’

the application is that he was "begotten" after he died. Before He was The Word = God

Yes God would send a Savior, Jesus and God is the Savior et al:

1-God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14) Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12)

2-God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22) Jesus Christ (the Lamb)is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22)

3-God is the first and the last (Is 44:6, 48:12) Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 22:13)

4-God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6) Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13)

5-Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21) Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20)

6-God is our hope (Ps 71:5) Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:11)

7-God is eternal(Deut 33:27) Jesus is eternal (Is 9:6, Heb 1:10-11)

8-God will come with the holy ones (Zech 14:5) Jesus will come with the holy ones (1Thess 3:13)

9-Only God is our savior (Is 43:11) Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1)

10-God is the creator of the universe (Is 44:24, Jer 27:5) Jesus is (Jn 1:3)

11-To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Is 45:22-23) To Jesus (Phil 2:10-11)

12-God is the same and His years will have no end (Ps 102:27) Jesus is the same and His years will have no end (Heb 1:12)

13-God is immutable (Mal 3:6) Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8)

14-God is over all (Ps 97:9) Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31)

15-The spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9) The spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6)

16-God is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (Is 8:14) Jesus is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8)

17-God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1) Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20)

18-God is our Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3) Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14)

19-God is our only rock (Is 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22) Jesus is our rock (1Cor 10:4)

20-No one can snatch us out of Gods hand (Deut 32:39) No one can snatch us out of Jesus hand (Jn 10:28)

21-God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3) Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-69)

22-God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12) Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12)

23-God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12) Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19)

24-Gods words will stand forever (Is 40:8) Jesus words will stand forever (Mt 24:35)

25-God is the eternal light (Is 60:19) Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:3)

26-God seeks to save the lost (Ez 34:16) Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10)

27-Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1) Paul is a slave of Christ (Rom 1:1)

28-God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1) Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21)

29-God is our guide (Ps 48:14) Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79)

30-God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2) Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26)

31-God is called God (Is 44:8) Jesus is called God (Jn 20:28)

32-God is the king of Israel (Is 44:6) Jesus is the king of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:19)

33- God is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13)

34- God is the king of Kings (1 Tim 5:15-16) Jesus is the King of Kings (Rev 17:14)

35- God is Lord over all ( Gal 4:6 ) and Jesus is Lord over all ( Rom 10:12 )

You can't separate the two - They are part of the Godhead with the Holy Spirit

 

[Soapy]

the application is that he was "begotten" after he died. Before He was The Word = God

Yes God would send a Savior, Jesus and God is the Savior et al:

1-God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14) Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12)

2-God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22) Jesus Christ (the Lamb)is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22)

3-God is the first and the last (Is 44:6, 48:12) Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 22:13)

4-God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6) Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13)

5-Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21) Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20)

6-God is our hope (Ps 71:5) Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:11)

7-God is eternal(Deut 33:27) Jesus is eternal (Is 9:6, Heb 1:10-11)

8-God will come with the holy ones (Zech 14:5) Jesus will come with the holy ones (1Thess 3:13)

9-Only God is our savior (Is 43:11) Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1)

10-God is the creator of the universe (Is 44:24, Jer 27:5) Jesus is (Jn 1:3)

11-To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Is 45:22-23) To Jesus (Phil 2:10-11)

12-God is the same and His years will have no end (Ps 102:27) Jesus is the same and His years will have no end (Heb 1:12)

13-God is immutable (Mal 3:6) Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8)

14-God is over all (Ps 97:9) Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31)

15-The spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9) The spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6)

16-God is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (Is 8:14) Jesus is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8)

17-God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1) Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20)

18-God is our Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3) Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14)

19-God is our only rock (Is 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22) Jesus is our rock (1Cor 10:4)

20-No one can snatch us out of Gods hand (Deut 32:39) No one can snatch us out of Jesus hand (Jn 10:28)

21-God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3) Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-69)

22-God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12) Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12)

23-God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12) Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19)

24-Gods words will stand forever (Is 40:8) Jesus words will stand forever (Mt 24:35)

25-God is the eternal light (Is 60:19) Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:3)

26-God seeks to save the lost (Ez 34:16) Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10)

27-Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1) Paul is a slave of Christ (Rom 1:1)

28-God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1) Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21)

29-God is our guide (Ps 48:14) Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79)

30-God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2) Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26)

31-God is called God (Is 44:8) Jesus is called God (Jn 20:28)

32-God is the king of Israel (Is 44:6) Jesus is the king of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:19)

33- God is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13)

34- God is the king of Kings (1 Tim 5:15-16) Jesus is the King of Kings (Rev 17:14)

35- God is Lord over all ( Gal 4:6 ) and Jesus is Lord over all ( Rom 10:12 )

You can't separate the two - They are part of the Godhead with the Holy Spirit

You can't separate the two - They are part of the Godhead with the Holy Spirit

Now that is an interesting aspect relating to your belief and the kind you are taking…

Jesus said, while on the cross:

• ‘“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).’(Matt 27:46)

Hmmm…. Seems like you are wrong - or at least only right that ‘You (personal human) cannot separate them!’ BUT GOD can separate himself from Jesus!!!?

Oh, what did I just say: ‘GOD…’ can separate Himself from … himself? Now that’s a sure impossibility and great absurdity!

As for the rest of your claims… No! You have them in the wrong view:
There are many who are kings:

• David was a king
• Solomon was a king
• Xerxes was a king
• Saul was a kings

These were all earthly kings.
God is SPIRIT KING over all these EARTHLY kings
Jesus BECOMES EARTHLY king over all EARTHLY kings… But GOD is still king over ALL EARTHLY KINGS.

• many who are Lords

(Same as with kings)
In this context, GOD IS KING and Jesus is Lord. King is greater than Lord: ‘My Father is greater than I’!

• many who are saviours

The Good Samaritan was a Saviour; Moses was a Saviour; Joseph was a Saviour…
An emergency controller heats off a crisis and sends an emergency worker to deal with the situation.

When the situation is dealt with who was the saviour?

Were they the same person?

 

[Kenny]

Jesus said, while on the cross:

• ‘“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).’(Matt 27:46)

Hmmm…. Seems like you are wrong - or at least only right that ‘You (personal human) cannot separate them!’ BUT GOD can separate himself from Jesus!!!?

you might have missed what I said since there is so much posted...

As I have mentioned so many times, Jesus is parenthetical to The Word and the risen King. The problem you are seeing is when you try to compare when The Word became flesh and not who he was from the beginning.

Emphasis mine.

If you read Phillipians 2 and John 1, you will see that when The Word became flesh, he came in the form and essence of man... the last Adam. He emptied himself of his God attributes.

I would never tell God what He can and cannot do. Just because a human's mind can't wrap itself around a concept doesn't make God's word of non-effect.

David spoke to his soul in Psalm 103. I speak to my body. Isaiah''s, Paul's and John's spirit left their body when the went to the third heaven (the presence of God) - I have no problem understanding the concept.

Only God can absorb man's bankruptcy and remain solvent. An angel cannot redeem man.

God is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13)

Only God can be the Alpha and Omega - it isn't a shareable title.

 

[Soapy]

you might have missed what I said since there is so much posted...



Emphasis mine.

If you read Phillipians 2 and John 1, you will see that when The Word became flesh, he came in the form and essence of man... the last Adam. He emptied himself of his God attributes.

I would never tell God what He can and cannot do. Just because a human's mind can't wrap itself around a concept doesn't make God's word of non-effect.

David spoke to his soul in Psalm 103. I speak to my body. Isaiah''s, Paul's and John's spirit left their body when the went to the third heaven (the presence of God) - I have no problem understanding the concept.

Only God can absorb man's bankruptcy and remain solvent. An angel cannot redeem man.

God is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13)

Only God can be the Alpha and Omega - it isn't a shareable title.

God is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13)

Only God can be the Alpha and Omega - it isn't a shareable title.

There are an infinite ‘Alpha and Omega’s.

Alpha and Omega just means the same as ‘First and Last’; the ONLY ONE.

I know many people who the ‘Alpha and Omega’ / ‘First and Last’ of children of their parents.

In an invention, the inventor is the first and last to create that invention!!

Anything that is a one-off entity is the ‘Alpha and Omega’, the ‘First and Last’… the ONLY ONE!

• YHWH is the Christian / Jewish ONLY GOD: “Hear, O Israel, YHWH is your ONLY GOD’
• God is creator: Father of his creation. His is the ONLY CREATOR

• Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is completely sinless, holy, and righteous
• Jesus is the ONE ONE anointed with the fullness of God’s holy Spirit
• Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is Son of God
• Jesus is the ONLY ONE who has been resurrected from the dead

If Jesus is God and yet BECAME MAN then that breaks the law that ‘God is immutable’.

If Jesus is God and gave up his Godly attributes then he is NO LONGER GOD!!

“Only God can absorb man's bankruptcy and remain solvent. An angel cannot redeem man.”… This has nothing to do with the discussion. No one ever claimed such an absurdity: Angels do not require forgiveness nor do forgiveness. An wrong done to an angel is a wrong done to Him who sent the angel: Almighty God: YHWH; The Father.

Jesus told the people that ‘MAN CAN FORGIVE HIS BROTHER’. It is a trinitarian nonsense to say that man cannot forgive sin. We are all called to forgive our fellow man - it us part of ‘Love thy neighbour’!

• If your fellow sins against you then you can forgive him…

• If you sin against God then it is for GOD to forgive you…

The gist of this is that it is the one that is being sinned against who has the power to forgive the sinner.

David spoke to ENCOURAGE HIMSELF (his Soul) in praising God. It is not your BODY that sins nor does the praising. The body is just a vehicle which is controlled / steered / directed in its actions BY THE SOUL - the PERSON who owns it.

‘Telling God what to do’…. Who brought that up?

Seems you easily stray from the discussion into things if insignificance in an attempt to distract and mislead. Bad form!!

 

[Kenny]

There are an infinite ‘Alpha and Omega’s.

Alpha and Omega just means the same as ‘First and Last’; the ONLY ONE.

I know many people who the ‘Alpha and Omega’ / ‘First and Last’ of children of their parents.

No. You are making up statements. You never hear of your statements.\

Sounds more like you don't want them to be the same

Anything that is a one-off entity is the ‘Alpha and Omega’, the ‘First and Last’… the ONLY ONE!

1. YHWH is the Christian / Jewish ONLY GOD: “Hear, O Israel, YHWH is your ONLY GOD’
2. God is creator: Father of his creation. His is the ONLY CREATOR
3. Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is completely sinless, holy, and righteous
4. Jesus is the ONE ONE anointed with the fullness of God’s holy Spirit
5. Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is Son of God
6. Jesus is the ONLY ONE who has been resurrected from the dead

If Jesus is God and yet BECAME MAN then that breaks the law that ‘God is immutable’.

1. Eloyhim - plural but still one God. I am plural (spirit, soul and body) but still one person
2. God is creator - by Jesus were all things created and without him was nothing created
3. Yes as is the Father, sinless, holy and righteous
4. Yes
5. Yes, because he came as man.
6. Yes, because he absorbed our sin and paid for our sin

If Jesus is God and gave up his Godly attributes then he is NO LONGER GOD!!

No. No more than if I were a billionaire heir and gave up all my billions did I cease being who I am.

Only God can absorb man's bankruptcy and remain solvent. An angel cannot redeem man.”… This has nothing to do with the discussion. No one ever claimed such an absurdity: Angels do not require forgiveness nor do forgiveness. An wrong done to an angel is a wrong done to Him who sent the angel: Almighty God: YHWH; The Father.

It is part of the discussion. It is why The Word (God) had to become flesh

Jesus told the people that ‘MAN CAN FORGIVE HIS BROTHER’. It is a trinitarian nonsense to say that man cannot forgive sin. We are all called to forgive our fellow man - it us part of ‘Love thy neighbour’!

• If your fellow sins against you then you can forgive him…

• If you sin against God then it is for GOD to forgive you…

The gist of this is that it is the one that is being sinned against who has the power to forgive the sinner.

David spoke to ENCOURAGE HIMSELF (his Soul) in praising God. It is not your BODY that sins nor does the praising. The body is just a vehicle which is controlled / steered / directed in its actions BY THE SOUL - the PERSON who owns it.

‘Telling God what to do’…. Who brought that up?

Seems you easily stray from the discussion into things if insignificance in an attempt to distract and mislead. Bad form!!

and?

Perhaps the bigger question is why is it that you don't want it to be God? It was necessary for God to become the last Adam as man.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..It is why The Word (God) had to become flesh

I think you refer to Logos..

Logos became a technical term in Western philosophy beginning with Heraclitus (c.  535 – c.  475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge
...
Within Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c.  20 BC – c.  50 AD) integrated the term into Jewish philosophy. Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word") and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within").
Logos - Wikipedia

The Christian concept of Logos, is derived from Philo.
It is pure Philosophy.
..not something that religion should be based on.
Jesus did not mention anything about a Logos.

 

[Kenny]

I think you refer to Logos..

Logos became a technical term in Western philosophy beginning with Heraclitus (c.  535 – c.  475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge
...
Within Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c.  20 BC – c.  50 AD) integrated the term into Jewish philosophy. Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word") and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within").
Logos - Wikipedia

The Christian concept of Logos, is derived from Philo.
It is pure Philosophy.
..not something that religion should be based on.
Jesus did not mention anything about a Logos.

So... "logos" was made flesh?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So... "logos" was made flesh?

According to the author of John .. but notice he does not quote Jesus .. it is merely his own philosophical ramblings.

I prefer the version in Genesis..
"In the beginning..
...
..and God saw that it was good.."

 

[Kenny]

According to the author of John .. but notice he does not quote Jesus .. it is merely his own philosophical ramblings.

I prefer the version in Genesis..
"In the beginning..
...
..and God saw that it was good.."

Yes... God saw that it was good!

But since everything is by the witness of two and three.... I stand on my position.

Besides... as Jesus said about himself, before Abraham was I AM (and not I was)

 

[Soapy]

So... "logos" was made flesh?

The word of God put on flesh…. It means that what God spoke became true… came to fruition.

God said he would send a saviour… and in the course of time His word (that He would send a saviour) came to be!

 

[Soapy]

No. You are making up statements. You never hear of your statements.\

Sounds more like you don't want them to be the same

1. Eloyhim - plural but still one God. I am plural (spirit, soul and body) but still one person
2. God is creator - by Jesus were all things created and without him was nothing created
3. Yes as is the Father, sinless, holy and righteous
4. Yes
5. Yes, because he came as man.
6. Yes, because he absorbed our sin and paid for our sin

No. No more than if I were a billionaire heir and gave up all my billions did I cease being who I am.

It is part of the discussion. It is why The Word (God) had to become flesh

and?

Perhaps the bigger question is why is it that you don't want it to be God? It was necessary for God to become the last Adam as man.

Perhaps the bigger question is why is it that you don't want it to be God? It was necessary for God to become the last Adam as man.

‘God became man’??

So, let me see: God became man as Jesus? Is that right?

So since the Father is God, the Father became man, too! Yes?

And the trinity spirit of God also became man! Yes?

It is part of the discussion. It is why The Word (God) had to become flesh

The word of God becoming flesh is about the word of God coming to fruition. The culmination of the prophesied that God would send a saviour: a LAST ADAM!

No. No more than if I were a billionaire heir and gave up all my billions did I cease being who I am.

No! It is the being a billionaire and heir that is given up! It is the BEING GOD that is given up in respect of the debate point. Therefore you WOULD NO LONGER BE A BILLIONAIRE NOR AN HEIR…. Jesus would NO LONGER BE GOD!
(You chose a very bad analogy… indeed there is no analogy that works because the premise is WRONG… making your whole argument WRONG!)

And you know you are wrong!

 

[Kenny]

The word of God put on flesh…. It means that what God spoke became true… came to fruition.

God said he would send a saviour… and in the course of time His word (that He would send a saviour) came to be!

OK... if that is what you believe. I didn't know that The Word was God meant that every word God speaks is God Himself.

 

[Kenny]

‘God became man’??

So, let me see: God became man as Jesus? Is that right?

So since the Father is God, the Father became man, too! Yes?

Yes, God became man. It was the only legal way for God to redeem man since God gave the world and dominion over it to man.

The thief entered illegally, but God entered legally. He is the Good Shepherd (Psalm 23) even as Jesus is the Good Shepherd.

Are you amazed that God's wisdom and understanding is higher than our wisdom? And His ways higher than our ways?

And the trinity spirit of God also became man! Yes?

Is your spirit in your body? But it isn't your body?

The word of God becoming flesh is about the word of God coming to fruition. The culmination of the prophesied that God would send a saviour: a LAST ADAM!

Not "The word of God" but "The word WITH God and WAS God"

 

[metis]

Yes, God became man. It was the only legal way for God to redeem man since God gave the world and dominion over it to man.

How about the possibility of Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the essence* of God?

*es·sence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   synonyms:
   quintessence · soul · spirit · ethos · nature · life · lifeblood · core · heart · center · crux · nub · nucleus · kernel · marrow · meat · pith · gist · substance ·
   [more]
   • philosophy
     a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

 

[Kenny]

How about the possibility of Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the essence* of God?

*es·sence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   synonyms:
   quintessence · soul · spirit · ethos · nature · life · lifeblood · core · heart · center · crux · nub · nucleus · kernel · marrow · meat · pith · gist · substance ·
   [more]
   • philosophy
     a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

Hmmmm... interesting... something to chew on....

Can you PM me with more on how this might be?

 

[Soapy]

OK... if that is what you believe. I didn't know that The Word was God meant that every word God speaks is God Himself.

That’s because it isn’t ‘HIM’… it is HIS word.

And HOS word is ALMIGHTY!!!

I showed you that ‘God’ means:

• Almighty
• Heroic
• Glorious
• Majestic
• All Powerful

It is a TITLE and an SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE.

Thus saying that ‘The word of God is God’ is perfectly understandable:

• The word of THE GOD (title) is GOD (almighty, all powerful, Majestic, glorious)

The ‘The God’ is properly expanded to: ‘The God OF the Jews’. A title needs a context to be fully appreciated. But because, in the New Testament, all references to the PERSON holding the title being spoken of is THE GOD OF THE JEWS, it can very reasonably by downgraded to just ‘GOD’ without the context. Notice that when ANOTHER ‘GOD’ is spoken of, there is always the context added:

• ‘The God OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS’: Satan
• ‘The God OF THIS AGE…’ : Satan
• ‘The SON OF [the God of the Jews]’: Jesus Christ
• ‘The Spirit OF [the God of the Jews]’: YHWH’s spirit

It goes without saying that it would be extremity’s exaggeration and aggravation to continually be saying: ‘The God of the Israelites: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’.