I don't know what to think anymore

[sun rise]

...
Indeed it is. There is a lot of beauty bequeathed to us by Christian Europe. Too many atheists in their hostility to anything Christian, often miss out on some really beautiful culture.

I was deeply moved and even awe struck when I visited some beautiful basilicas and cathedrals during a trip to Italy in the early 1990's. And of course there's the beautiful paintings, sculpture and music inspired by religious belief.

Indeed. I'm not going to do anything out of whim right at this moment. It's just the longer I think about religion the less and less sense any of this is making. Call it cognitive dissonance, I seem to be quite susceptible to it. Perhaps because I'm the only one among the Catholics I know who actually thinks about the implications of the religion beyond Sunday morning lip service...

One of the reasons I'm not conventionally religious is the problem I have with much dogma. I believe that the highest law is Love, that God is Love and that a loving God could not condemn people to eternal punishment. People can and do learn lessons and that involves pain, even pain that seems like it will never end but objectively I believe it does end.

There's a round/prayer that is very meaningful to me and I pray for you: "May the long time sun shine upon you, all love surround you and the pure light within you guide your way on."

 

[Glaurung]

Secondly, you really don't sound like an atheist, you sound more like a theist than I ever was, and I generally call myself a theist on the forums.

I should also mention that I do not intend to imply that it's either hardline Catholicism or hardline materialism. It's just that I have strong doubts concerning the claims of Christianity as well as objections to certain aspects of Catholic moral thinking, which have more to do with scholastic aristotelianism than what is taught in the Bible.

 

[Desert Snake]

I should also mention that I do not intend to imply that it's either hardline Catholicism or hardline materialism. It's just that I have strong doubts concerning the claims of Christianity as well as objections to certain aspects of Catholic moral thinking, which have more to do with scholastic aristotelianism than what is taught in the Bible.

Seems like you're not a Catholic, may be another denomination is right for you?

 

[Glaurung]

Seems like you're not a Catholic, may be another denomination is right for you?

I'd be a bad Protestant (I went to a Protestant highschool) and I consider anything influenced by Calvinist thought as repugnant.

The only other real contender as far as Christian denominations go would be Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'd be a bad Protestant (I went to a Protestant highschool) and I consider anything influenced by Calvinist thought as repugnant.

The only other real contender as far as Christian denominations go would be Eastern Orthodoxy.

Ah. The 'issues' I would have with say, adhering to a typical protestant church would most likely be similar to the catholic issues.
Idk, there are quite a few denominations, however.

 

[sun rise]

Tlaloc,

I saw this article Spirituality: We all have unbelief at some point and thought of you.

“Sounds like you’re a ‘believing unbeliever.’” I said.

This time his quizzical look told me I’d caught him off guard. It was now my turn to “say more.”

“You want to believe, but you feel like your doubts are incongruent with your belief.”

“Do you think that I’m just hedging my bets?” he asked.

“Not at all,” I said. “It tells me that you are intellectually honest about your faith.”

His smile told me he’d finally found a minister who understood.

I understood because there are days when I am him. There are days I struggle to be that spot-on believer people expect a minister to be.

 

[Erebus]

The threat of Hell in of itself isn't compelling if you have no reason to believe that the threats have substance. If you haven't grown up in a religious context where the threat is emphasised, it can be hard to understand the fear that it can hold for someone in my circumstances. It's not rational but it's real nonetheless.

That's a fair point and something I hadn't really considered. Hell had no real place in my upbringing so obviously it's going to be easier for me to dismiss it. Hopefully it's something you'll be able to work through, Hell isn't a concept that does people much good.

Thanks.

My pleasure

 

[paarsurrey]

It's time to come clean and air out some of my recent thoughts.

Over the past few months, I've been dealing with a lot of internal conflict concerning the question of what I believe. As I have mentioned a few times, I was an atheist for the past five or so years.

Around late last year, I started to become incredibly existential. I felt that my life had little purpose or meaning and I had become quite nihilistic in my overall outlook on things. Combined with little social life and a resurfacing of a childhood OCD, I was on my way to mental wreck-ville.

For wider context, I grew up in a fairly devout and practising Catholic family, so the faith was quite engrained into me during my developmental years. Nonetheless, during my late adolescence I began to question certain things; starting with Catholic morality, the justifications for faith in what can't be substantiated, to ultimately the very existence of God himself. The domino chain began to crumble. Which eventually lead me into materialism and I became yet another conceited online atheist.

However, perhaps motivated by my growing existentialism and disenchantment with the communities I was a part of, I did something unusual. I read the Gospels.

Of course, this did not make a believer out of me immediately. But it set the course for further exploration of my childhood religion. And I found a lot of things to admire, from breathtaking art to Old Roman chants, it was something to be a part of.

However, as the months of my new found faith have gone by, the old doubts have begun to re-emerge. The biggest one that I just can't seem to put aside is the arbitrary nature of my belief.

Am I interested in Catholicism because I legitimately believe it to represent the true religion? The Church of Christ himself? Or did I just succumb to the strain of indoctrination and guilt that had built up over the years? Have I actually explored other religions? What if the Muslims are correct? Then am I going to hell anyway for professing the wrong religion? How am I supposed to know what happened in Jerusalem two-thousand years ago? Or whether Muḥammad and his revelations are what they claim to be? Is avoiding eternal hellfire really contingent on being fortunate enough to happen on the right religion? How is that even remotely fair?

Not to mention the constant guilt of sin I have to live with. Get a girlfriend? Lol, you may as well sign me over to hell as doing so would make it virtually impossible to avoid mortal sin. (not that I'm free of that anyway) But neither are most Catholics for that matter. The moral hypocrisy of many of my co-religionists (even in my own family) is an open secret. My sister is off to hell for co-habitation, and my parents for my father's vasectomy after my sister's birth. But they all go to church on Sunday! Of course, my wider family is much the same. Hell, as is most of the western Catholic world. But I'm the one who seems bothered by this disconnect.

So here I am back again at a crossroad with no idea where to go. Do I just give up on it as not worth the headache? But then again, if I'm wrong going to have a very bad eternity.

Not to mention the constant guilt of sin I have to live with.

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.
I don't understand one's guilt of sin. All Christian denominations (32000 + of them) believe that Jesus died on the Cross (actually Jesus was delivered in near-dead position from the Cross yet very much alive) for atonement of the sins of the Christians.

So, why should one worry? Please
At the most one has to make a confession of one's sin before a priest in the Church.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It's time to come clean and air out some of my recent thoughts.

Over the past few months, I've been dealing with a lot of internal conflict concerning the question of what I believe. As I have mentioned a few times, I was an atheist for the past five or so years.

Around late last year, I started to become incredibly existential. I felt that my life had little purpose or meaning and I had become quite nihilistic in my overall outlook on things. Combined with little social life and a resurfacing of a childhood OCD, I was on my way to mental wreck-ville.

For wider context, I grew up in a fairly devout and practising Catholic family, so the faith was quite engrained into me during my developmental years. Nonetheless, during my late adolescence I began to question certain things; starting with Catholic morality, the justifications for faith in what can't be substantiated, to ultimately the very existence of God himself. The domino chain began to crumble. Which eventually lead me into materialism and I became yet another conceited online atheist.

However, perhaps motivated by my growing existentialism and disenchantment with the communities I was a part of, I did something unusual. I read the Gospels.

Of course, this did not make a believer out of me immediately. But it set the course for further exploration of my childhood religion. And I found a lot of things to admire, from breathtaking art to Old Roman chants, it was something to be a part of.

However, as the months of my new found faith have gone by, the old doubts have begun to re-emerge. The biggest one that I just can't seem to put aside is the arbitrary nature of my belief.

Am I interested in Catholicism because I legitimately believe it to represent the true religion? The Church of Christ himself? Or did I just succumb to the strain of indoctrination and guilt that had built up over the years? Have I actually explored other religions? What if the Muslims are correct? Then am I going to hell anyway for professing the wrong religion? How am I supposed to know what happened in Jerusalem two-thousand years ago? Or whether Muḥammad and his revelations are what they claim to be? Is avoiding eternal hellfire really contingent on being fortunate enough to happen on the right religion? How is that even remotely fair?

Not to mention the constant guilt of sin I have to live with. Get a girlfriend? Lol, you may as well sign me over to hell as doing so would make it virtually impossible to avoid mortal sin. (not that I'm free of that anyway) But neither are most Catholics for that matter. The moral hypocrisy of many of my co-religionists (even in my own family) is an open secret. My sister is off to hell for co-habitation, and my parents for my father's vasectomy after my sister's birth. But they all go to church on Sunday! Of course, my wider family is much the same. Hell, as is most of the western Catholic world. But I'm the one who seems bothered by this disconnect.

So here I am back again at a crossroad with no idea where to go. Do I just give up on it as not worth the headache? But then again, if I'm wrong going to have a very bad eternity.

Have I actually explored other religions? What if the Muslims are correct?

Or whether Muḥammad and his revelations are what they claim to be?

Just read the Quran yourself and you will know .

Regards

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're probably one of the few people on this board with the perspective to really understand the ditch I'm. I can only imagine how bad it would be for someone of your circumstances.

Oh, it's terrible for an LGBT person. Eventually, I just stopped trying to follow the Church's teachings on sexual morality because they are illogical and can be explained away. There's plenty of pro-LGBT Catholics so it's not that difficult, although the engrained guilt and fear is still there. But then I stopped bothering with things like confession, too. Plus, over time, I would do a lot of research into the formation and spread of Christianity throughout the globe and what I found was simply horrible. So Christianity has been "debunked" in my mind (same goes for Islam and Judaism). What was really holding me to it was the emotional ties. That is what led to me flip-flopping between Catholicism and other things over the past few years.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

So here I am back again at a crossroad with no idea where to go. Do I just give up on it as not worth the headache? But then again, if I'm wrong going to have a very bad eternity.

In all honesty if you ask me, there is absolutely nothing to worry about and the freedom I feel after discarding the Abrahamic thought (for religious use, not for various philosophy) is incredible. I actually feel embarrassed that I allowed myself to go on sort of believing or not questioning for as long as I did. I suppose I never was much of a believer, but similar to how you framed it for yourself, as a kid I bought into the gospels and poured over the better biblical poetry and philosophy. Ultimately I wish I would have started questioning a lot sooner.

However, I am quite depressed oftentimes because so much of the world is not free. That is a downside. I see that we have such a long road to travel down to reach a secular world based on science and enjoyment of life that it really is a downer from this perspective. So if you do choose an alternate path away from the Abrahamic with its wrath, hell, guilt, and sin, try to be prepared for even greater existential questions about what is really going on here.

 

[Sabour]

It's time to come clean and air out some of my recent thoughts.

Over the past few months, I've been dealing with a lot of internal conflict concerning the question of what I believe. As I have mentioned a few times, I was an atheist for the past five or so years.

Around late last year, I started to become incredibly existential. I felt that my life had little purpose or meaning and I had become quite nihilistic in my overall outlook on things. Combined with little social life and a resurfacing of a childhood OCD, I was on my way to mental wreck-ville.

For wider context, I grew up in a fairly devout and practising Catholic family, so the faith was quite engrained into me during my developmental years. Nonetheless, during my late adolescence I began to question certain things; starting with Catholic morality, the justifications for faith in what can't be substantiated, to ultimately the very existence of God himself. The domino chain began to crumble. Which eventually lead me into materialism and I became yet another conceited online atheist.

However, perhaps motivated by my growing existentialism and disenchantment with the communities I was a part of, I did something unusual. I read the Gospels.

Of course, this did not make a believer out of me immediately. But it set the course for further exploration of my childhood religion. And I found a lot of things to admire, from breathtaking art to Old Roman chants, it was something to be a part of.

However, as the months of my new found faith have gone by, the old doubts have begun to re-emerge. The biggest one that I just can't seem to put aside is the arbitrary nature of my belief.

Am I interested in Catholicism because I legitimately believe it to represent the true religion? The Church of Christ himself? Or did I just succumb to the strain of indoctrination and guilt that had built up over the years? Have I actually explored other religions? What if the Muslims are correct? Then am I going to hell anyway for professing the wrong religion? How am I supposed to know what happened in Jerusalem two-thousand years ago? Or whether Muḥammad and his revelations are what they claim to be? Is avoiding eternal hellfire really contingent on being fortunate enough to happen on the right religion? How is that even remotely fair?

Not to mention the constant guilt of sin I have to live with. Get a girlfriend? Lol, you may as well sign me over to hell as doing so would make it virtually impossible to avoid mortal sin. (not that I'm free of that anyway) But neither are most Catholics for that matter. The moral hypocrisy of many of my co-religionists (even in my own family) is an open secret. My sister is off to hell for co-habitation, and my parents for my father's vasectomy after my sister's birth. But they all go to church on Sunday! Of course, my wider family is much the same. Hell, as is most of the western Catholic world. But I'm the one who seems bothered by this disconnect.

So here I am back again at a crossroad with no idea where to go. Do I just give up on it as not worth the headache? But then again, if I'm wrong going to have a very bad eternity.

From what I read, I would say you are on the right track. Seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you.

Study the religions for the right religion must have its proof. It can't be through blind faith.

Quick question, is mentioning Islam just an example or something more than that?

 

[Glaurung]

Quick question, is mentioning Islam just an example or something more than that?

I mentioned Islam as an example of a religion that like Christianity, makes exclusivist claims in regards to the favour of God and thus salvation.

A Christian cannot enter Heaven according to many Muslims, because the doctrine of the Trinity which holds Christ as God incarnate is equivalent to shirk. (associating partners with God) Further, a Christian by default rejects the validity of Muḥammad's revelations, which is also an automatic barring from salvation. On the other hand, Christianity, in its more conservative forms, would hold it that a Muslim cannot enter Heaven because they have failed to recognise and accept Christ and be formally baptised.

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

If we accept that at least one of these religions are in fact correct, then many people regardless of their personal virtue, and sincerity in which they strived for God, are going to Hell because of the exclusive nature of salvation. That it cannot be earned without adherence to doctrine.

I'm saying that this is not reasonable when there is no certain way to determine the truth of what no one can actually substantiate beyond "faith".

 

[Sabour]

I mentioned Islam as an example of a religion that like Christianity, makes exclusivist claims in regards to the favour of God and thus salvation.

A Christian cannot enter Heaven according to many Muslims, because the doctrine of the Trinity which holds Christ as God incarnate is equivalent to shirk. (associating partners with God) Further, a Christian by default rejects the validity of Muḥammad's revelations, which is also an automatic barring from salvation. On the other hand, Christianity, in its more conservative forms, would hold it that a Muslim cannot enter Heaven because they have failed to recognise and accept Christ and be formally baptised.

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

If we accept that at least one of these religions are in fact correct, then many people regardless of their personal virtue, and sincerity in which they strived for God, are going to Hell because of the exclusive nature of salvation. That it cannot be earned without adherence to doctrine.

I'm saying that this is not a reasonable when there is no certain way to determine the truth of what no one can actually substantiate beyond "faith".

Fair points. As for the last paragraph, it is not about blind faith. This can't be the way of the truth.

If you are interested we can talk about that Islam.

Even if you don't want, I would like to invite you to go to this link and watch the two videos I posted. They are in deed very long but they are true stories

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/168449-real-revert-stories.html

 

[Shiranui117]

I mentioned Islam as an example of a religion that like Christianity, makes exclusivist claims in regards to the favour of God and thus salvation.

A Christian cannot enter Heaven according to many Muslims, because the doctrine of the Trinity which holds Christ as God incarnate is equivalent to shirk. (associating partners with God) Further, a Christian by default rejects the validity of Muḥammad's revelations, which is also an automatic barring from salvation. On the other hand, Christianity, in its more conservative forms, would hold it that a Muslim cannot enter Heaven because they have failed to recognise and accept Christ and be formally baptised.

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

If we accept that at least one of these religions are in fact correct, then many people regardless of their personal virtue, and sincerity in which they strived for God, are going to Hell because of the exclusive nature of salvation. That it cannot be earned without adherence to doctrine.

I'm saying that this is not reasonable when there is no certain way to determine the truth of what no one can actually substantiate beyond "faith".

Hey Tlaloc, I'll just second the fact that you are not the first Christian to doubt their faith and question Christian stances on morality, nor will you be the last. I myself occasionally find myself strongly attracted to another path, so I can kinda sorta understand your predicament--though, naturally, your struggles are going to be different than mine, so of course I won't pretend to know what you're going through 100%.

Even though Eastern Orthodoxy is without a doubt one of the most conservative and traditional forms of Christianity, we would not say that anyone is damned to Hell for having not accepted Jesus and been baptized--God is more gracious than to see whether or not we've completed a checklist and giving us Heaven or Hell because of that.

I know you said that Eastern Orthodoxy is probably the only real contender for you at this point. If you ever want to talk to me or Phil about Orthodox Christianity or ask us anything, I believe it's safe to say that both of us would be happy to oblige. Just give us a shout.

Prayers for you in this point of struggle in your spiritual path.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's time to come clean and air out some of my recent thoughts.

Over the past few months, I've been dealing with a lot of internal conflict concerning the question of what I believe. As I have mentioned a few times, I was an atheist for the past five or so years.

Around late last year, I started to become incredibly existential. I felt that my life had little purpose or meaning and I had become quite nihilistic in my overall outlook on things. Combined with little social life and a resurfacing of a childhood OCD, I was on my way to mental wreck-ville.

For wider context, I grew up in a fairly devout and practising Catholic family, so the faith was quite engrained into me during my developmental years. Nonetheless, during my late adolescence I began to question certain things; starting with Catholic morality, the justifications for faith in what can't be substantiated, to ultimately the very existence of God himself. The domino chain began to crumble. Which eventually lead me into materialism and I became yet another conceited online atheist.

However, perhaps motivated by my growing existentialism and disenchantment with the communities I was a part of, I did something unusual. I read the Gospels.

Of course, this did not make a believer out of me immediately. But it set the course for further exploration of my childhood religion. And I found a lot of things to admire, from breathtaking art to Old Roman chants, it was something to be a part of.

However, as the months of my new found faith have gone by, the old doubts have begun to re-emerge. The biggest one that I just can't seem to put aside is the arbitrary nature of my belief.

Am I interested in Catholicism because I legitimately believe it to represent the true religion? The Church of Christ himself? Or did I just succumb to the strain of indoctrination and guilt that had built up over the years? Have I actually explored other religions? What if the Muslims are correct? Then am I going to hell anyway for professing the wrong religion? How am I supposed to know what happened in Jerusalem two-thousand years ago? Or whether Muḥammad and his revelations are what they claim to be? Is avoiding eternal hellfire really contingent on being fortunate enough to happen on the right religion? How is that even remotely fair?

Not to mention the constant guilt of sin I have to live with. Get a girlfriend? Lol, you may as well sign me over to hell as doing so would make it virtually impossible to avoid mortal sin. (not that I'm free of that anyway) But neither are most Catholics for that matter. The moral hypocrisy of many of my co-religionists (even in my own family) is an open secret. My sister is off to hell for co-habitation, and my parents for my father's vasectomy after my sister's birth. But they all go to church on Sunday! Of course, my wider family is much the same. Hell, as is most of the western Catholic world. But I'm the one who seems bothered by this disconnect.

So here I am back again at a crossroad with no idea where to go. Do I just give up on it as not worth the headache? But then again, if I'm wrong going to have a very bad eternity.

Humans struggle with a "want for belief". I don't know of very many atheists that don't "wish" that there was some kind of god that would be there for us. The notion is appealing and has a great deal to do with its success. My wife was an atheist for many years has now begun practicing paganism again. I am getting involved with the Pagan community as well but still as an atheist. The sense of belonging and longing for connection is a powerful tool. If it genuinly makes you happy then go for it.

However I don't honestly think you believe it. I think you want to believe it. So the question with you is more about how you want to live your life. Are you okay living with something that is a saftey blanket or comfort measure to ease some of your insecurities about life and such? Or would you rather face your skepticism and internalize some other new secular reason to live. Are you really okay with living something you truly believe to not exist because you want it to exist?
Its your life to choose what you do.

 

[Glaurung]

@ Shiranui117

One of the things that attracts me to Orthodoxy, is that it has never really betrayed itself or its the traditions which has been built over the centuries. The Roman church made a big mistake gutting its authentic liturgy which evolved over the centuries in favour of a 1960's contrivance (which to be fair has been distorted to levels of abuses never intended).

Even though Eastern Orthodoxy is without a doubt one of the most conservative and traditional forms of Christianity, we would not say that anyone is damned to Hell for having not accepted Jesus and been baptized--God is more gracious than to see whether or not we've completed a checklist and giving us Heaven or Hell because of that.

I understand that, and most modern Catholics don't really believe in the exclusivity of Heaven. But being honest about what has been traditionally believed (at least in the West) it gets pretty obvious that formal baptism is required. (Where does Dante place Virgil and Homer?) This is why the notion of Limbo came about, as to try and sidestep the obvious implications.

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to my posts #28 #29 in this thread I have to add that one needs to know the exact and truthful concept of heaven and hell.

There is a purpose of human life set by G-d.
One who fulfills it, it is one’s heaven and one who does not fulfill it, it is his hell.
Feeling guilt of sins is good and is not bad; that means your inner self is still alive and is not dead.
Just go ahead steadfastly and achieve the purpose of life seeking help of G-d (Jesus is not god or a son of god in literal terms).

Regards

 

[Iti oj]

If fear of hell is your only motivation then consider this, is god exist and is good the beliefs shouldn't matter, if they do the god is evil and unworthy of worship.

 

[Desert Snake]

@Tlaloc
Do you want to belong to a 'church'? I don't belong to a church, so that is where my advice is coming from.
Ultimately if we're talking about 'real' beliefs, it gets beyond a "church". Those are just places of worship, though you said you like that, so, seems like for you finding a denomination might be preferable.