I don't particularly want to sin...

[DNB]

Yes -- because that's how it works. Despite the heart-felt wishes of believers, there is simply no objective morality -- anywhere. If it is wrong to lie, it is wrong to lie in every possible circumstance. Thus, you'll be compelled to tell grannie, "sorry, dear, but shortly you're breath will get shorter, you'll be very frightened, but don't fret, because in 15 minutes you'll be dead." Most humans I know would prefer to offer a little comfort -- which would be, in the circumstance, a lie.

And you are incorrect about animals, too. Many animals mourn their dead. You seem incapable of seeing that intelligence and emotion can be on a slliding scale. Dogs may not have all of our human rational capacities, but they feel, they definitely feel. Elephants and whales, too. Though grief in animals may seem questionable to you, evidence shows it is abundant. From chimpanzees to otters to sea lions, animals grieve just like humans do. Researchers like Bekoff, Fashing, Nguyen, and others, are studying every day to help better understand how and why animals grieve.

And they do it without having to hold prayer services and bow before images of dead people on crosses.

Again, you take a great deal for granted - granny's imminent death does not necessitate, in order to be truthful, that one be either callous or uncompassionate with her. One can tell her that God forgives and has a better place for all who recognize His sovereignty and acknowledge His Messianic son. We can tell her many things to alleviate the fear and stress that are not fallacious. You do err greatly.

Animals do not grieve the loss of their family, for they kill and eat alive countless other creatures - one cannot be a primitive savage in one context, and then a bleeding-heart in another. You do greatly err!

 

[DNB]

Indeed, or a theists who has learned to believe and espouses vile and pernicious homophobia, and is just as strident and intransigent in their hatred and prejudice as any white supremacist is in theirs.



That is pure assumption, you have no clue what other sentient animals may experience.



That is entirely incorrect, you have gone from sweeping unevidenced assertions, to asserting errant nonsense.



Where to start with this, firstly all animals that evolved to live in societal groups exhibit empathy, it is an essential trait. Secondly human concepts of justice are subjective, and necessarily derived from our evolved intellect, but obviously our moral precursors are as with other animals, a derivation of evolving to live in societal groups. You also seem to have gone from stridently dismissing non-human animals ability to empathise and experience loss or death, to assigning them an intellect? Seemingly without seeing the paradox.



There is no evidence for this assumption, and a cynic might note that this divine diktat seems in every single instance to mirror the ignorance and prejudice of the human culture's and epochs from which they originate. Sadly religious indoctrination then teaches people to cling doggedly to hateful and pernicious ideas, such as the vile homophobia you have espoused on here, for example.



Again pure assumption, and again we can see examples of humans who have evolved like all other living thngs, and yet contemplate just such emotions and principles, and not just human animals either.



It's not a mantra, and the idea other animals hold mantras is pretty ironic and incongruous alongside your other sweeping assertions about them. Nature has evolved animals that are carnivores, this includes humans, even that are on occasion cannibalistic, and again that includes humans.

Humans also evolved big brains, as problem solving gave a massive survival advantage, the agricultural and then industrial revolution have allowed humans time to contemplate their behaviour, freeing them from the constant need to find food and shelter, and so our morals evolve, but this does not require any deity or anything supernatural to explain it, nor are such things objectively evidenced beyond human imagination.

it is a mantra.
..and don't think that your perverse and iniquitous endorsements of homosexuality has gone unnoticed. We know who the trouble-makers are, and the ones who promote wickedness in order to justify their own licentiousness. You claim that you are loving, and yet you prefer to watch others destroy themselves with utterly vile and detestable practices, that even the ignorant and primitive animals know better than to partake. Shame on you Sheldon, you can't disguise hedonism and apathy as love.

 

[F1fan]

Terrorists claim that they follow true Islam. I was saying that that is a false claim. They are criminals and murderers.

But the whole point is that there are classes of religious people in religions that are criminals and murderers to humanists, but to themselves they are acting through the authority of God. The question is IF a God exists why is is it letting these people go so far astray?

I tend to hear "free will" but that is a bogus excuse. There is something deficient with the people, or the theology, or the books, or all of it, and God created it all knowing there are flaws.

Either the God doesn't exist, or it exists but is incompetent, or just doesn't care.

 

[F1fan]

Eliminating prejudices is very important for a healthy society. In this age we struggle so much to get along with each other so looking at what we have in common can help us build a common bond.

Unfortunately prejudices are being used to build a common bond among conservatives in the USA, and elsewhere.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Animals do not grieve the loss of their family, for they kill and eat alive countless other creatures - one cannot be a primitive savage in one context, and then a bleeding-heart in another. You do greatly err!

You said that animals don't grieve the loss of their family, but that's not entirely true. Elephants are the larger existing land animals, and they grieve their dead. Elephants aren't carnivores, they're herbivorous, but they are animals, and they grieve their dead.

National Geographic: Do Elephants Grieve? New Video Suggests They Do

 

[DNB]

Are you under impression that citing random animals negates her perfectly sound point?

Do you think the isolating a phrase from my entire paragraph, undermines my assertions?
Do you think that ignoring my comment to not make the exceptions the rule, went unnoticed?

 

[DNB]

You said animals do not grieve the loss of their family, but that's not entirely true. Elephants are the larger existing land animals, and they grieve their dead. Elephants aren't carnivores, they're herbivorous, but they are animals, and they grieve their dead.

National Geographic: Do Elephants Grieve? New Video Suggests They Do

I also said to not make the remote and isolated exceptions the rule. Nor to draw conclusions from ambiguous and undetermined evidence.

 

[F1fan]

Again, you take a great deal for granted - granny's imminent death does not necessitate, in order to be truthful, that one be either callous or uncompassionate with her. One can tell her that God forgives and has a better place for all who recognize His sovereignty and acknowledge His Messianic son. We can tell her many things to alleviate the fear and stress that are not fallacious. You do err greatly.

My mother recently passed away and one of her friends was dead set on saving her soul, wanting too bring in prayer circles and do who knows what else. She kept pressing me. My mom wasn't a Christian. I'man atheist. My mom's friend who was helping me with her hospice isn't a believer either. And we thought it was selfish that this lady kept pushing her beliefs onto mom, me and the situation. Jody ended up being the bad guy and put her foot down. My problem is when believers value their own beliefs more than they respect the wishes of others. This is a serious flaw in Christianity. This whole salvation nonsense makes believers go way too far in thee illusion they are doing right. A moral God wouldn't need this Rube Goldberg theology of Jesus and salvation to do the right thing.

Animals do not grieve the loss of their family, for they kill and eat alive countless other creatures - one cannot be a primitive savage in one context, and then a bleeding-heart in another. You do greatly err!

I like sushi myself. You should try it.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I also said to not make the remote and isolated exceptions the rule. Nor to draw conclusions from ambiguous and undetermined evidence.

That's rude. And who are you to tell other members what they can and can't post?

Do you think you have a right to set guidelines for how other members respond to your posts?

 

[DNB]

My mother recently passed away and one of her friends was dead set on saving her soul, wanting too bring in prayer circles and do who knows what else. She kept pressing me. My mom wasn't a Christian. I'man atheist. My mom's friend who was helping me with her hospice isn't a believer either. And we thought it was selfish that this lady kept pushing her beliefs onto mom, me and the situation. Jody ended up being the bad guy and put her foot down. My problem is when believers value their own beliefs more than they respect the wishes of others. This is a serious flaw in Christianity. This whole salvation nonsense makes believers go way too far in thee illusion they are doing right. A moral God wouldn't need this Rube Goldberg theology of Jesus and salvation to do the right thing.


I like sushi myself. You should try it.

Whenever you're ready, you may feel free to try and stay on topic, or try and comprehend the points being made before attempting to answer them. If truly facilitates the discussion process.

 

[DNB]

That's rude. And who are you to tell other members what they can and can't post?

Do you think you have a right to set guidelines for how other members respond to your posts?

Well, that's rude! Who are you to tell others, that they can't tell others ,how they feel that others should address a post?
Do you feel that you have the right to set guidelines upon other members, who feel that they have the right to tell other members, how to stay on topic, and to not isolate comments from other members, in order to attempt to reply to the other members post?
Well, do you?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My mother recently passed away and one of her friends was dead set on saving her soul, wanting too bring in prayer circles and do who knows what else. She kept pressing me. My mom wasn't a Christian. I'm an atheist. My mom's friend who was helping me with her hospice isn't a believer either. And we thought it was selfish that this lady kept pushing her beliefs onto mom, me and the situation. Jody ended up being the bad guy and put her foot down. My problem is when believers value their own beliefs more than they respect the wishes of others. This is a serious flaw in Christianity. This whole salvation nonsense makes believers go way too far in thee illusion they are doing right. A moral God wouldn't need this Rube Goldberg theology of Jesus and salvation to do the right thing.

Yes, that's certainly a problem with a lot of Christians. I've experienced it with Christians even while I was still one. A lot of them try to shove their beliefs down your throat, and they won't take no for an answer, or they try to convince you that their biblical beliefs and scriptural interpretation is the only correct one and other Christians are wrong. Obnoxious Christians push people away from God. I really like this quote: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ” - Gandhi.

 

[F1fan]

Whenever you're ready, you may feel free to try and stay on topic, or try and comprehend the points being made before attempting to answer them. If truly facilitates the discussion process.

I take it you aren't sympathetic with the stress I felt due to a pushy Christian as my mother was dying.

Isn't that a sin?

 

[F1fan]

...new order...

Excellent band.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I take it you aren't sympathetic with the stress I felt due to a pushy Christian as my mother was dying.

Isn't that a sin?

I'm not a Christian, but I'm sorry that you went through that difficult situation because of an obnoxious, pushy Christian. It sucks. As I said, obnoxious Christians can push people away from God. Christians can either lead people to God, or they can be a stumbling block and turn people away from God. Sadly, it's typically the latter because a lot of Christians are rude, obnoxious jerks who talk down to you, insult you, and call you derogatory names. So much for loving their neighbor and letting their light shine before men.

 

[DNB]

I take it you aren't sympathetic with the stress I felt due to a pushy Christian as my mother was dying.

Isn't that a sin?

Who the flippin' heck was talking about imposing one's views on another. I simply gave an example of how to alleviate one's pain without employing deceit. There are countless other forms of rhetoric that one can use, depending on the recipient and the context. My only point was, one does not have to lie.
Why are you having so much trouble trying to understand the point?

 

[F1fan]

Yes that is the claim, without God, everything would be permitted and right and wrong would depend on my own personal opinion.

Right. In the 17th century European Christians tortured and executed 30-50,000 people for witchcraft. That would be about 800,000 people today adjusting for population growth. So did they kill all the witches? Why doesn't God permit this today? Would you be a part of torture and execution squads for God?

If I where an atheist, I would live in denial and live my daily life based on the assumption that there are “objective goods” and “objective bads”……….but deep inside I would know that it is not the case.

.

Are you admitting that you don't have the self-control, discipline, and moral sense to make your own decisions, and need to rely of some dogma to replace your independent judgment?

 

[F1fan]

Who the flippin' heck was talking about imposing one's views on another.

I was. And you read my post post talking about it.

I simply gave an example of how to alleviate one's pain without employing deceit. There are countless other forms of rhetoric that one can use, depending on the recipient and the context. My only point was, one does not have to lie.

And what if your dogma is a lie, and you aren't aware of it like others as they observe in Christian behavior?

Why are you having so much trouble trying to understand the point?

Probably not as much as you are. Do you think you are morally superior, as a Christian? I ask because we are discussing sin, and arrogance would be a form of sin, yes?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Are you admitting that you don't have the self-control, discipline, and moral sense to make your own decisions, and need to rely of some dogma to replace your independent judgment?

Your question reminds me of this quote by Penn Jillette. He did hit the nail on the head with this quote.

 

[F1fan]

Your question reminds me of this quote by Penn Jillette. He did hit the nail on the head with this quote.

That's a brilliant quote.