I don't particularly want to sin...

[Eyes to See]

*****

Since this is your belief, and you are a fallible human, is there any chance you could be mistaken?

A belief may be wrong. But what I shared with you is a fact that is irrefutable.

 

[ppp]

Or, it is you that is deluded?

Stop following your script of what you have conditioned yourself to think I ought to mean, and deal with what I am saying.

If you had been listening you would realize that it doesn't matter if I am the one that is deluded. It doesn't matter if you, or one of the religionist who disagrees with you is correct. None of you can demonstrate that what you say has anything to do with any god. Everyone else is stuck viewing what ever you say as your opinion, whether there is a god, 10 gods, or no gods.

Absolutely... just not by your standard that changes over time.

I am not at all sorry to tell you that your standard changes over time, too. There is nothing that you can say about the fluctuations of my standard that is not trivially true about yours.

The beliefs of your religion, no matter what that religion might be, fluctuate over time and will continue to do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I find your assessment a bit naive. Let's note you could characterize all American citizens as upright citizens, but a good 40% of them voted for trump, a corrupt conman who has no good reason to be in any position of public service. There are some of these folks calling and leaving death threats to public servants. A number rallied at the Capitol on Jan 6 and broke into the Capitol. Qanon has attracted millions to their nonsense. Many don't oppose republicans in power to setting up laws that will hinder voting access. And most all of these people are Christian.

Most people on the planet want to have stability and peace to go about their lives. But there are mn ay who are manipulated by authoritarian leaders, often using religion, to get these ordinary people to do unethical things. Not murder. Not theft. But anti-democracy which leads to a lack of law and freedom. So there is passive complicity that you don't seem willing to acknowledge.

In my humble opinion I believe what is most needed in this age is to build bridges between the different races, religions and nationalities and do everything in our power to reconcile our differences.

So whether it be Americans or Muslims I see good in the vast majority of my fellow humans.

 

[ppp]

It’s all the Word of God and as a Baha’i I don’t see any bad parts.

Your opinion is noted.

all Muhammad did was state there was one God

How do you know that it is true that is all he did?

the Meccans attempted genocide,

How do you know that?

to exterminate the entire Muslim community because the idea of one God clashed with their 360 profit making idols

How do you know that was the reason?

 

[ppp]

So whether it be Americans or Muslims I see good in the vast majority of my fellow humans.

I agree. But it might be helpful to not use phrasing that implies that Muslims and Americans are mutually exclusive.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Your opinion is noted.


How do you know that it is true that is all he did?


How do you know that?


How do you know that was the reason?

It’s a part of Baha’i belief.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24

 

[loverofhumanity]

I agree. But it might be helpful to not use phrasing that implies that Muslims and Americans are mutually exclusive.

Our belief is that people were born good and pure.

 

[ppp]

It’s a part of Baha’i belief.

Ah. So, you don't.

 

[ppp]

Our belief is that people were born good and pure.

My belief is that people are born, and that the process is both nifty and wondrous.

 

[DNB]

This is, of course, in counterpoint the thread "I just want to sin!!"

I offer up this question to those believers who honestly think that, without God, everything is permitted. That is, if you really do believe that dictum ("without God, everything is permitted"), then you must also admit that if you did not believe in God, and follow what you believe to be God's commands, you would not know right from wrong.

Really? Is that really true?

Make a case for me, anyone who really thinks that.

First of all, it would be entirely subjective - ask a white supremist of his values and how ardently that he believes it, and you tell me how to impress upon him that he's wrong?
Secondly, you take for granted the repulsion that you feel when a heinous crime is committed. There is no other animal on earth besides man that cringes seeing another creature eaten alive, or being dismembered by a vindictive or possessive enemy. Animals do not mourn the loss of their offspring or other members of their family (exceptions do not make the rule)

You take for granted human's sense of compassion and justice, it's innate and not derived by intellect, for even the non-human creatures have intellect. Without a divine being who has established right from wrong, the holy from the profane, the truth from perversion, a being that came from protoplasm or stardust would never contemplate or fathom such principles as love, justice, mercy and compassion. The mantra, as all other creatures hold, would be 'kill, or be killed', 'looking out for #1', dog-eat-dog', etc....

 

[ppp]

First of all, it would be entirely subjective - ask a white supremist of his values and how ardently that he believes it, and you tell me how to impress upon him that he's wrong?

I have yet to meet a white supremacist who is not a conservative Christian.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Animals do not mourn the loss of their offspring or other members of their family (exceptions do not make the rule)

Dolphins, elephants, other primates, your assertion is very off base from reality.

 

[lukethethird]

I have yet to meet a white supremacist who is not a conservative Christian.

I've known a few atheists that have expressed some very dim views towards people of colour, they are not actively white supremicists as such but they do appear to share in some basic prejudices towards whole groups of people.

 

[ppp]

I've known a few atheists that have expressed some very dim views towards people of colour, they are not actively white supremicists as such but they do appear to share in some basic prejudices towards whole groups of people.

I have certainly met atheist who are misogynists, transphobia, gay bashers and those who thing that theists are less intelligent. I would surprised in the extreme if there were no atheists racists. In fact, I think a god is more likely.

 

[lukethethird]

I have certainly met atheist who are misogynists, transphobia, gay bashers and those who thing that theists are less intelligent. I would surprised in the extreme if there were no atheists racists. In fact, I think a god is more likely.

I agree, a god is more likely.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Ah. So, you don't.

What are you referring to?

 

[Clara Tea]

This is, of course, in counterpoint the thread "I just want to sin!!"

I offer up this question to those believers who honestly think that, without God, everything is permitted. That is, if you really do believe that dictum ("without God, everything is permitted"), then you must also admit that if you did not believe in God, and follow what you believe to be God's commands, you would not know right from wrong.

Really? Is that really true?

Make a case for me, anyone who really thinks that.

Jews don't believe in original sin. Newborns are sinless in the Jewish faith.

The Christian faith is a spin-off of the Jewish faith, so why do they believe in original sin?

If there is no original sin, and someone doesn't sin within their lifetime, they have no need to be saved from their sin.

Jews believe that there are over 600 commandments from God, and violation of any one is a sin. Therefore, they believe that it is practically impossible for someone to grow up sinless.

So, that would be good reason to need a savior to absolve all sin.

To answer your question, I believe that atheists have good moral compasses that keep them from sinning, and belief in God doesn't prevent sinning. In fact, those who think that they will be forgiven for any sin, tend to sin a lot.

 

[Clara Tea]

I agree, a god is more likely.

People are people. It is easy to find sinners who are atheists or theists. However, if someone is forgiven for any sin, they are more likely to sin.

 

[Clara Tea]

Nope. Morality is a human (and to some degree a mammalian) trait. Without human morality civilization could not have developed for religion to develop and steal (very moral) morality for itself, then doctor it to omit anyone human who does not worship a particular god idea in a particular way and then persecute (and kill) those excluded humans in the name of their gods morality.

I agree. (and I'm usually very long winded).

 

[Clara Tea]

@Eyes to See

May i draw your attention to staff advice on the abuse of the funny rating?
Abuse of the "Funny" Rating

When I chose my profession, they all laughed. Then I did it....I became a comedian....and they aren't laughing now.