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I don't particularly want to sin...

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I didn't understand your request.

It violates the line of love. (Which is a spiritual principle but everyone can enjoin because it is universally understood)

Edited:

It violates "Love your neighbor as yourself".

In the 1960's the world seemed good. Young people protested the draft (taking away rights, making people kill who really didn't know why they were killing), and they promoted peace and love. Some was free love (babies with more than one person, without marriage). But it was a loving period. Somehow Yuppies took over, and suddenly the love of mammon superceded any other love.

I suppose that there is a balance to achieve love of all without orgies.

God's plan is to avoid wars. Yet, the plans of mankind keep overriding God. The religious should not stand for that.

Yet, we see that the Religious Right insists that their candidates support the 2nd Amendment....gun rights....the NRA (National Rifle Association). The NRA put the pope on their enemies list because he was a man of peace and honor.

I am glad to see that someone else is writing about loving thy neighbor.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
As defined by man, which changes the parameters. God's doesn't although He gives mankind the freedom to do as they please.

1. you omitted the key point. that point being: it has no moral implications. Morality pertains to well being. How one defines a marriage has no bearing on well-being. What defines a marriage has nothing to do with behavior in terms of how we treat others.

2. I'm still waiting for you to answer my post #67. Care to do so?
I don't particularly want to sin... | Page 4 | Religious Forums
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There are over 1.7 billion good upright Muslims in the world whom you are trying to paint with the same brush.

No, I didn't. I was talking specifically and explicitly about islamic terrorists. Fundamentalists.
Never have I even hinted at this being applicable to "all muslims".

It's quite rude of you to pretend otherwise.

You fail to point out that the majority of Muslims are peaceful upright people who are well wishers of mankind. The handful you refer to do not represent the Quran, nor Muhammad nor the Islamic world.

First, it's a bit more then a mere handful.
Second, these fundamentalists will very much disagree with that. In fact, they'll say the exact opposite: that is they who represent "true islam" and that all others aren't "real muslims" and "kuffars" or what-have-you.

Which was the actual point.

It’s completely unjust not to accept the 1.7 billion as good people and only focus on a handful of criminals who represent no one but their selfish ambitions.

I agree. I never did that and I have no clue why you are concluding that I did.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
No, I didn't. I was talking specifically and explicitly about islamic terrorists. Fundamentalists.
Never have I even hinted at this being applicable to "all muslims".

It's quite rude of you to pretend otherwise.



First, it's a bit more then a mere handful.
Second, these fundamentalists will very much disagree with that. In fact, they'll say the exact opposite: that is they who represent "true islam" and that all others aren't "real muslims" and "kuffars" or what-have-you.

Which was the actual point.



I agree. I never did that and I have no clue why you are concluding that I did.

Terrorists are a tiny minority who make ridiculous claims. We all agree they are criminals. They can claim what they want.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Actually, science only explains what it can see.

That is incorrect. Though I like the irony of implying science is at fault for being unable to detect things that provide no data to examine.

It does take a Deity to understand how it all began. ;)

Again incorrect, and a bare unevidenced assertion. The belief in a deity adds no explanatory powers to our understanding of the origins of the universe, as of course Laplace pointed out to Napoleon about his work.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The Bible has the transformative power to change lives. I have seen it many times over in people from all walks of life. It is God's word and thus applying its advice in your life will make you better no matter whom you are or where you are.
It endorses slavery, quite specifically explaining how to buy and own slaves, even beating them to death is ok, as they long as they survive the beating by at least 48 hours. It encourages parents to stone unruly children at the edge of town. So I find your claim dubious sorry. Morality is subjective, and that includes religious morality. As for people improving their lives using the bible, there are countless atheists and secularist who manage to live good law abiding and productive lives without it.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Stop following your script of what you have conditioned yourself to think I ought to mean, and deal with what I am saying.

If you had been listening you would realize that it doesn't matter if I am the one that is deluded. It doesn't matter if you, or one of the religionist who disagrees with you is correct. None of you can demonstrate that what you say has anything to do with any god. Everyone else is stuck viewing what ever you say as your opinion, whether there is a god, 10 gods, or no gods.

Thou shalt not commit murder.... as far as I am concerned.... is from God.

I am not at all sorry to tell you that your standard changes over time, too. There is nothing that you can say about the fluctuations of my standard that is not trivially true about yours.

The beliefs of your religion, no matter what that religion might be, fluctuate over time and will continue to do.

Which of the ten commandments that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of marriage that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of abortion that Christians subscribe to has changes?

Yes, what we believe about speed limits has changed... but that isn't a commandment of God.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1. you omitted the key point. that point being: it has no moral implications. Morality pertains to well being. How one defines a marriage has no bearing on well-being. What defines a marriage has nothing to do with behavior in terms of how we treat others.

That is debatable.

2. I'm still waiting for you to answer my post #67. Care to do so?
I don't particularly want to sin... | Page 4 | Religious Forums

Will re-address and be more specific.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
In the 1960's the world seemed good. Young people protested the draft (taking away rights, making people kill who really didn't know why they were killing), and they promoted peace and love. Some was free love (babies with more than one person, without marriage). But it was a loving period. Somehow Yuppies took over, and suddenly the love of mammon superceded any other love.

I suppose that there is a balance to achieve love of all without orgies.

God's plan is to avoid wars. Yet, the plans of mankind keep overriding God. The religious should not stand for that.

Yet, we see that the Religious Right insists that their candidates support the 2nd Amendment....gun rights....the NRA (National Rifle Association). The NRA put the pope on their enemies list because he was a man of peace and honor.

I am glad to see that someone else is writing about loving thy neighbor.

I think we have to define what love really is. The above doesn't fit my definition. 2nd Amendment, if I understand your position is translated in this way, "love your neighbor, the man who is coming into my hope to hurt, torture and maybe kill my wife, but hate my wife by whom i will let my "neighbor" come and destroy"
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
First of all, it would be entirely subjective - ask a white supremist of his values and how ardently that he believes it, and you tell me how to impress upon him that he's wrong?
Secondly, you take for granted the repulsion that you feel when a heinous crime is committed. There is no other animal on earth besides man that cringes seeing another creature eaten alive, or being dismembered by a vindictive or possessive enemy. Animals do not mourn the loss of their offspring or other members of their family (exceptions do not make the rule)

You take for granted human's sense of compassion and justice, it's innate and not derived by intellect, for even the non-human creatures have intellect. Without a divine being who has established right from wrong, the holy from the profane, the truth from perversion, a being that came from protoplasm or stardust would never contemplate or fathom such principles as love, justice, mercy and compassion. The mantra, as all other creatures hold, would be 'kill, or be killed', 'looking out for #1', dog-eat-dog', etc....
Yes -- because that's how it works. Despite the heart-felt wishes of believers, there is simply no objective morality -- anywhere. If it is wrong to lie, it is wrong to lie in every possible circumstance. Thus, you'll be compelled to tell grannie, "sorry, dear, but shortly you're breath will get shorter, you'll be very frightened, but don't fret, because in 15 minutes you'll be dead." Most humans I know would prefer to offer a little comfort -- which would be, in the circumstance, a lie.

And you are incorrect about animals, too. Many animals mourn their dead. You seem incapable of seeing that intelligence and emotion can be on a slliding scale. Dogs may not have all of our human rational capacities, but they feel, they definitely feel. Elephants and whales, too. Though grief in animals may seem questionable to you, evidence shows it is abundant. From chimpanzees to otters to sea lions, animals grieve just like humans do. Researchers like Bekoff, Fashing, Nguyen, and others, are studying every day to help better understand how and why animals grieve.

And they do it without having to hold prayer services and bow before images of dead people on crosses.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
First of all, it would be entirely subjective - ask a white supremist of his values and how ardently that he believes it, and you tell me how to impress upon him that he's wrong?

Indeed, or a theists who has learned to believe and espouses vile and pernicious homophobia, and is just as strident and intransigent in their hatred and prejudice as any white supremacist is in theirs.

Secondly, you take for granted the repulsion that you feel when a heinous crime is committed. There is no other animal on earth besides man that cringes seeing another creature eaten alive, or being dismembered by a vindictive or possessive enemy.

That is pure assumption, you have no clue what other sentient animals may experience.

Animals do not mourn the loss of their offspring or other members of their family (exceptions do not make the rule)

That is entirely incorrect, you have gone from sweeping unevidenced assertions, to asserting errant nonsense.

You take for granted human's sense of compassion and justice, it's innate and not derived by intellect, for even the non-human creatures have intellect.

Where to start with this, firstly all animals that evolved to live in societal groups exhibit empathy, it is an essential trait. Secondly human concepts of justice are subjective, and necessarily derived from our evolved intellect, but obviously our moral precursors are as with other animals, a derivation of evolving to live in societal groups. You also seem to have gone from stridently dismissing non-human animals ability to empathise and experience loss or death, to assigning them an intellect? Seemingly without seeing the paradox.

Without a divine being who has established right from wrong, the holy from the profane, the truth from perversion,

There is no evidence for this assumption, and a cynic might note that this divine diktat seems in every single instance to mirror the ignorance and prejudice of the human culture's and epochs from which they originate. Sadly religious indoctrination then teaches people to cling doggedly to hateful and pernicious ideas, such as the vile homophobia you have espoused on here, for example.

a being that came from protoplasm or stardust would never contemplate or fathom such principles as love, justice, mercy and compassion.

Again pure assumption, and again we can see examples of humans who have evolved like all other living thngs, and yet contemplate just such emotions and principles, and not just human animals either.

The mantra, as all other creatures hold, would be 'kill, or be killed', 'looking out for #1', dog-eat-dog', etc....

It's not a mantra, and the idea other animals hold mantras is pretty ironic and incongruous alongside your other sweeping assertions about them. Nature has evolved animals that are carnivores, this includes humans, even that are on occasion cannibalistic, and again that includes humans.

Humans also evolved big brains, as problem solving gave a massive survival advantage, the agricultural and then industrial revolution have allowed humans time to contemplate their behaviour, freeing them from the constant need to find food and shelter, and so our morals evolve, but this does not require any deity or anything supernatural to explain it, nor are such things objectively evidenced beyond human imagination.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is incorrect. Though I like the irony of implying science is at fault for being unable to detect things that provide no data to examine.



Again incorrect, and a bare unevidenced assertion. The belief in a deity adds no explanatory powers to our understanding of the origins of the universe, as of course Laplace pointed out to Napoleon about his work.

It is correct. It doesn't even address spirituality.

And, your second paragraph is incorrect. It isn't "belief" but rather "understanding".
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I have certainly met atheist who are misogynists, transphobia, gay bashers and those who thing that theists are less intelligent. I would surprised in the extreme if there were no atheists racists. In fact, I think a god is more likely. :confused:
The idea that ignorance and prejudice vanish when someone stops or has never believed in a deity, would be pretty absurd. The best one could say is that atheism has no dogma or doctrine, such as hateful racism and homophobia. Sadly prejudice and hatred don't require religion as vehicle.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
Actually, science only explains what it can see.

That is incorrect.

It is correct.

It is demonstrably incorrect.

It doesn't even address spirituality.

Or mermaids or unicorns or leprechauns, but it is bizarre to assume this indicates a limitation of science.

And, your second paragraph is incorrect. It isn't "belief" but rather "understanding".

They are not mutually exclusive, though your claim seems very dubious to me, given the theistic inability to produce any objective evidence, or explanatory powers for it, or from it. Beyond Planck time, the origins of the current universe is as yet unknown to us, religions make unevidenced assertions and assumptions, but they explain nothing, as the bare claim a deity did it all, has no explanatory powers. I could as easily claim a unicorn did it using inexplicable wizardry, and simply assume the characteristics theists assume for the various deities they imagine.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Which of the ten commandments that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of marriage that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of abortion that Christians subscribe to has changes?

Many Christians are happy to covet possession that are not theirs, or advertising would never work. Many Christians kill, and commit murder. many Christians commit adultery of various types. Many Christians and some churches have accepted same sex marriages. Many Christians think denying women bodily autonomy would be immoral. Christians generally would think murdering people accused of being witches is immoral. Most Christians would not think of stoning unruly children. Slavery is something most Christians now consider immoral.

These are just a few ways Christianity has and is evolving, like all other religions. Of course Many Christians and some churches also long ago accepted the scientific fact of pieces evolution through natural selection, including the largest one, the RCC, who have enough resources to easily falsify it, if there were any evidence to do so.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is demonstrably incorrect.

too funny

Or mermaids or unicorns or leprechauns, but it is bizarre to assume this indicates a limitation of science.

That is such an overused statement that is always applied because there is no intelligent answer - so we skirt realities

They are not mutually exclusive, though your claim seems very dubious to me, given the theistic inability to produce any objective evidence, or explanatory powers for it, or from it. Beyond Planck time, the origins of the current universe is as yet unknown to us, religions make unevidenced assertions and assumptions, but they explain nothing, as the bare claim a deity did it all, has no explanatory powers. I could as easily claim a unicorn did it using inexplicable wizardry, and simply assume the characteristics theists assume for the various deities they imagine.
That is because you haven't asked the right questions... start a new thread?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
My point is I don't believe in a "beyond," and genuinely good people have no need of such threats of consequences.

Those who require such threats to behave well, I would not call genuinely good.

I agree. I rarely think about Heaven and Hell and rewards--as do most born agains. We think "God loves this person, how can the love of God flow through me to them/they?"
 
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