I find a clash in a secular based value system

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Read This Bolded Summary Instead: I will post a summary of this post that gets my point across. With a beautiful rose, I can find value in that rose even though it will decay away one day. But when it comes to a human being, then this person cannot be like a rose which would solely be a nature-based thing that will forever rot and decay away one day. This is because that takes away the human value of a human being and replaces it with a "rose" based human value. In other words, it makes human beings look like nothing more than roses or plants that will just forever wilt and decay away one day. Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected (clashed) with this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

In order for a human based value to be established, then it cannot have any relationship to things such as roses or a car which are things that will rot, rust, and decay away one day and that be the end of them. If it has any relationship, then that makes any value claim of a human being not a genuine value at all. By having a relationship, then you subject human value to mere things such as the value that a car or rose has which are mere transient things that will rust and decay away one day. In other words, by having a relationship, you take away the human value of a human being and replace it with the value that a car or a rose has.

Our human value is something very special, precious, and dear to us. We do not want that value to be subjected to the type of value that a car or a rose has. It becomes a major problem for most of us when our value is put into the context (framework) of the value of mere transient materialistic things. It is both degrading and insulting to the value we have as human beings and reduces said value to nothing more than cosmic dust. We wish to be special, unique, and different from mere transient materialistic things. Most of us wish to be divine eternal souls who are loved by a God who get to live in eternal bliss.

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The beautiful thing about being a sentient? Is that we get to choose The Meaning Of Life.

Unfortunately, all too often, people are bent on imposing their version of Meaning onto everyone else-- to the point of passing laws enforcing it, if they can.

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is. He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away like the insignificant trash we are."

Cognitive Bias, at work, in the above statement. The child is hardly "insignificant trash" to those who love the child, now IS he/she?

Why does your ego require more than that?

What sort of oversized ego do you need, to insist that the Ultimate Creator of Everything has a close and personal relationship with.... you?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

The beautiful thing about being a sentient? Is that we get to choose The Meaning Of Life.

Unfortunately, all too often, people are bent on imposing their version of Meaning onto everyone else-- to the point of passing laws enforcing it, if they can.




Cognitive Bias, at work, in the above statement. The child is hardly "insignificant trash" to those who love the child, now IS he/she?

Why does your ego require more than that?

What sort of oversized ego do you need, to insist that the Ultimate Creator of Everything has a close and personal relationship with.... you?

Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is. He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away like the insignificant trash we are."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who live him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife.

Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

You identify a clash in the perspective you've provided because there seems to be huge holes in your understanding of evolution.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You identify a clash in the perspective you've provided because there seems to be huge holes in your understanding of evolution.

Please elaborate further what you mean here.

 

[Valjean]

You've hit on a major motivating force in human psychology, Matt: a fear of insignificance, strong in some, less so in others.
Some people will grasp at all sorts of fabulous myths to comfort themselves with the idea that they're they're significant, beloved and eternal.
This can be problematic, as any assault on personal mythology becomes an assault on ego integrity, and people will often go to dangerous lengths to protect their personal mythos.

Some of us are satisfied with our own, subjective significance. A child's cosmic significance or transience doesn't affect my feelings toward him.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You've hit on a major motivating force in human psychology, Matt: a fear of insignificance, strong in some, less so in others.
Some people will grasp at all sorts of fabulous myths to comfort themselves with the idea that they're they're significant, beloved and eternal.
This can be problematic, as any assault on personal mythology becomes an assault on ego integrity, and people will often go to dangerous lengths to protect their personal mythos.

Some of us are satisfied with our own, subjective significance. A child's cosmic significance or transience doesn't affect my feelings toward him.

So, I guess, for you, there is no clash. There is no pinning up of the personal values of human beings against the idea that we have no value and are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But, for me, there is always that clash which has that cancelling effect I mentioned in my post.

 

[sayak83]

So, I guess, for you, there is no clash. There is no pinning up of the personal values of human beings against the idea that we have no value and are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But, for me, there is always that clash which has that cancelling effect I mentioned in my post.

Be significant to your own self. Why do you rely on things other than your own self in determining your own significance and meaning. Does your happiness and well being and flourishing matter to you? Does it matter to those with whom you share your lived experience? That should be enough for everyone. What possible addition of value can you get with some hubristic idea of cosmic or historical significance. I see a greed for fame and power over others lurking in there somewhere. Whether you are a mortal being or an immortal soul, your value should lie in your self, in your own experiences, actions and goals and bliss. Trying to seek it out in anything else is folly.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Be significant to your own self. Why do you rely on things other than your own self in determining your own significance and meaning. Does your happiness and well being and flourishing matter to you? Does it matter to those with whom you share your lived experience? That should be enough for everyone. What possible addition of value can you get with some hubristic idea of cosmic or historical significance. I see a greed for fame and power over others lurking in there somewhere. Whether you are a mortal being or an immortal soul, your value should lie in your self, in your own experiences, actions and goals and bliss. Trying to seek it out in anything else is folly.

The only thing that gives my life value and worth would be my good feelings. In other words, the greatest life for me would be an eternal blissful afterlife where I can be happy all I want and get everything I want. This is because these good feelings are the only experiences that have real value-giving and worth-giving quality in my life. No other experience has this quality for me.

 

[idav]

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

The fleetingness of a thing actually makes it more precious and valued.

"Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay."
Robert Frost

 

[Valjean]

So, I guess, for you, there is no clash. There is no pinning up of the personal values of human beings against the idea that we have no value and are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But, for me, there is always that clash which has that cancelling effect I mentioned in my post.

There's no grand cosmic scheme needed for me to maintain strong moral and ethical values, or to feel significant.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Please elaborate further what you mean here.

You allude to a "beautiful young child" and other subjective aspects of human perception that require a form of individual sensitivity that allows a person to make value judgements such as "beauty".

Your perceived "clash" is predicated on the universe's materials and the ways in which they function:

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child ... BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

... I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

...

etc.

The reason why we are able and prone to making these value judgements is because the evolutionary process provided humans with the ability to do such a thing because, at some point in our evolution, we required it to survive.

Going back to your "beautiful young child" example, evolutionary processes have made it a biological certainty that certain neurological processes and release of chemicals in the brain (I think oxytocin & serotonin, among others; I'm no neurologist) cause people to perceive subjective things such as beauty.

I suppose one could make the argument that this is somehow a "clash" but I see the universe as more of a complex tapestry of materials and physics that don't really have much meaning that our species can actually comprehend.

 

[Valjean]

As long as you don't try to force your values and doctrines on others, or join with some group that does, believe whatever you want, Matt.

 

[LuisDantas]

I just don't get why some people seem to think that people must be either not really mortal or worthless.

There is value in human beings. It is not supposed to last forever. And that is ok.

 

[psychoslice]

If you are happy and need a belief of another life then do it, why do you need others to agree with your beliefs, live and enjoy your life here and Now, there is a good chance your wrong anyway.

 

[SomeRandom]

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

That's a very pessimistic interpretation. I prefer Neil DeGrasse Tyson's explanation. (Paraphrasing here but) On a molecular level we have much in common with even the stars. To be made of stardust (as it were) is incredible and shows that we don't have to live forever to be part of something grander than ourselves. Obviously he explains it better than I could, what with being a highly respected prestigious Scientist and all.

 

[George-ananda]

Materialists still finding meaning and value in life. Although I feel spiritualists have a subjectively more positive and meaningful view of life.

 

[fantome profane]

It is all a matter of perspective. I understand that a moment of joy is nothing in the vastness of existence. A lifetime is washed away in the tide of eternity so as to never been at all.

But in that moment for that person a moment is eternity, and a beloved child is the universe.


Both perspectives are true. And if you call that a "clash", so be it.

 

[Curious George]

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

If I could hold a spark against the darkest night, I would exclaim the beauty therein. But a spark is momentary. The beauty soon gone. Yet, that spark, though brief, can ignite a fire which burns much after the spark is no longer.

Sorry to wax poetic, but can you not appreciate this dance of life as beautiful even with all its consequences?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

Cancel out? Says ... who? YOU? Again, with your oversized ego!

We are Sentient Beings-- we get to choose how much or how little. I see that you chose... poorly.

There is no Magical Over-Arching Universal Thing Which Sets The Value Of Things. Sorry about that.

Does the black hole at the center of a galaxy concern itself with the fate of all the stars it swallows? Not even a little.

The Universe is rather Uncaring--- and also 99.9999999..... % lethal to life as WE know it.

In the Grand Scheme Of things? The entire history of Earth-- including all it's life infestation-- counts as nothing.

Unless you have a massive need to be Cosmically Significant....


... as I said earlier: Ego.