I find a clash in a secular based value system

[ChristineM]

If I could hold a spark against the darkest night, I would exclaim the beauty therein. But a spark is momentary. The beauty soon gone. Yet, that spark, though brief, can ignite a fire which burns much after the spark is no longer.

Sorry to wax poetic, but can you not appreciate this dance of life as beautiful even with all its consequences?

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams

 

[Curious George]

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams

There was a little more to my post, but that was a huge chunk. Yes.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Fix it dear liza.

 

[QuestioningMind]

When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.

"I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things."

I find this to be a very difficult concept to comprehend. Are you saying that you cannot find the beauty in a colorful blooming rose, just because you know that eventually it will wilt and die? And how exactly have you reached the conclusion that just because a child's soul won't live on happily for ever after that this equates to them being insignificant trash? This child is no more or less significant than anything else in the universe. The reality is that when that child dies and their body decomposes all of the nutrients that their body contained returns to the soil, where it could very easily provide the sustenance required to sustain a beautiful rose at some point in the future.

It's almost as if you are saying that unless you can be convinced that someday you'll get everything you've ever wanted, that it's impossible to find joy and bliss in life.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

"I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things."

I find this to be a very difficult concept to comprehend. Are you saying that you cannot find the beauty in a colorful blooming rose, just because you know that eventually it will wilt and die? And how exactly have you reached the conclusion that just because a child's soul won't live on happily for ever after that this equates to them being insignificant trash? This child is no more or less significant than anything else in the universe. The reality is that when that child dies and their body decomposes all of the nutrients that their body contained returns to the soil, where it could very easily provide the sustenance required to sustain a beautiful rose at some point in the future.

It's almost as if you are saying that unless you can be convinced that someday you'll get everything you've ever wanted, that it's impossible to find joy and bliss in life.

I judge the value of a human being on a different basis than who they are as a person. As long as they are just mere biological organisms and material that will just rot and decay away one day, then that child has no beauty or any value. Also, we really are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things because if you look at the value of human beings on a grand scale, then you will find that we have no value. We really are insignificant trash.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I judge the value of a human being on a different basis than who they are as a person. As long as they are just mere biological organisms and material that will just rot and decay away one day, then that child has no beauty or any value. Also, we really are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things because if you look at the value of human beings on a grand scale, then you will find that we have no value. We really are insignificant trash.

Wow... what a sad dismal world you choose to live in. If that's truly how you feel I'm surprised you ever bother to get out of bed in the morning.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Wow... what a sad dismal world you choose to live in. If that's truly how you feel I'm surprised you ever bother to get out of bed in the morning.

Actually, with a beautiful rose, I can find value in that rose even though it will decay away one day. But when it comes to a human being, then this person cannot be like a rose which would solely be a nature-based thing that will forever rot and decay away one day. This is because that takes away the human value of a human being and replaces it with a "rose" based human value. In other words, it makes human beings look like nothing more than roses or plants that will just forever wilt and decay away one day. Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected to this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I judge the value of a human being on a different basis than who they are as a person. As long as they are just mere biological organisms and material that will just rot and decay away one day, then that child has no beauty or any value. Also, we really are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things because if you look at the value of human beings on a grand scale, then you will find that we have no value. We really are insignificant trash.

Even rot and decay holds a beauty of its own. You wouldn't be alive otherwise. There would be no universe.

The value is in recognizing that.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Even rot and decay holds a beauty of its own. You wouldn't be alive otherwise. There would be no universe.

The value is in recognizing that.

Go ahead and respond to my previous post I have just recently made because I think it is important for you and others to respond to as well. It actually summarizes my worldview in a way.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Actually, with a beautiful rose, I can find value in that rose even though it will decay away one day. But when it comes to a human being, then this person cannot be like a rose which would solely be a nature-based thing that will forever rot and decay away one day. This is because that takes away the human value of a human being and replaces it with a "rose" based human value. In other words, it makes human beings look like nothing more than roses or plants that will just forever wilt and decay away one day.

But if you can find the beauty in a rose that will die and decay some day, why can't you find the same beauty in a human being? Why does a human have to possess more value? And even if somehow a human does have more value, why does that make it impossible to see the beauty that they possess if someday they will die and decay? The rose possessed beauty, even with the flaw of eventually dying and decaying. What prevents a human from possessing the same type of beauty, just because they have the same flaw?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

But if you can find the beauty in a rose that will die and decay some day, why can't you find the same beauty in a human being? Why does a human have to possess more value? And even if somehow a human does have more value, why does that make it impossible to see the beauty that they possess if someday they will die and decay? The rose possessed beauty, even with the flaw of eventually dying and decaying. What prevents a human from possessing the same type of beauty, just because they have the same flaw?

Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected to this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected to this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

What is the 'real' human value of human beings?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

What is the 'real' human value of human beings?

The real value we have as human beings would be the idea that we are beautiful people due to who we are as individuals. This value gets taken away when it gets clashed with the "rose" based value.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Go ahead and respond to my previous post I have just recently made because I think it is important for you and others to respond to as well. It actually summarizes my worldview in a way.

It's a way of saying that it all works in a manner by which the versatility and practicality of the elements, timeless in their own right, is actually what brings forth our perceptions of beauty and value,

Sometimes we forget that the periodic table we learned in science class is a natural pallet of colors and wonders that can be presented in ways that completely encompass our sense of worth or worthlessness, and through the eessence of composition, brings it together by which nothing is void of any quality that we may happen to give it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The real value we have as human beings would be the idea that we are beautiful people due to who we are as individuals. This value gets taken away when it gets clashed with the "rose" based value.

How? We ARE individuals and we each possess our own individual beauty. The fact that we will eventually die and decompose doesn't change the fact that we are individuals. The fact that roses eventually die and decompose doesn't detract from the individual beauty of any given rose. You still haven't really indicated what a 'rose' based value is and how it is any different from a 'human' based value.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

How? We ARE individuals and we each possess our own individual beauty. The fact that we will eventually die and decompose doesn't change the fact that we are individuals. The fact that roses eventually die and decompose doesn't detract from the individual beauty of any given rose. You still haven't really indicated what a 'rose' based value is and how it is any different from a 'human' based value.

In order for a human based value to be established, then it cannot have any relationship to things such as roses or a car which are things that will rot, rust, and decay away one day and that be the end of them. If it has any relationship, then that makes any value claim of a human being not a genuine value at all. By having a relationship, then you subject human value to mere things such as the value that a car or rose has which are mere transient things that will rust and decay away one day. In other words, by having a relationship, you take away the human value of a human being and replace it with the value that a car or a rose has.

Our human value is something very special, precious, and dear to us. We do not want that value to be subjected to the type of value that a car or a rose has. It becomes a major problem for most of us when our value is put into the context (framework) of the value of mere transient materialistic things. It is both degrading and insulting to the value we have as human beings and reduces said value to nothing more than cosmic dust. We wish to be special, unique, and different from mere transient materialistic things. Most of us wish to be divine eternal souls who are loved by a God who get to live in eternal bliss. I'm not talking about any religious based God who condemns you and has you go to hell. I am instead talking about a God who has universal unconditional love for all human beings.

 

[SomeRandom]

In order for a human based value to be established, then it cannot have any relationship to things such as roses or a car which are things that will rot, rust, and decay away one day and that be the end of them. If it has any relationship, then that makes any value claim of a human being not a genuine value at all. By having a relationship, then you subject human value to mere things such as the value that a car or rose has which are mere transient things that will rust and decay away one day. In other words, by having a relationship, you take away the human value of a human being and replace it with the value that a car or a rose has.

How? We will all rot, we will all decay. That is basic biology. Regardless of whether or not you believe in a soul or god or both, that's reality. Sorry but nature doesn't think we're special. We think we're special due to our own hubris. To the point where entire religions have sprung forth attempting to literally suppress such a trait, even religions that tell the adherents that they are the "chosen ones" at least call hubris a sin. It's very spoilt brat like way of thinking, if I'm honest. In the natural world we are the ones who gave ourselves participation trophies, as if that somehow makes us winners.

Our human value is something very special, precious, and dear to us. We do not want that value to be subjected to the type of value that a car or a rose has. It becomes a major problem for most of us when our value is put into the context (framework) of the value of mere transient materialistic things. It is both degrading and insulting to the value we have as human beings and reduces said value to nothing more than cosmic dust. We wish to be special, unique, and different from mere transient materialistic things. Most of us wish to be divine eternal souls who are loved by a God who get to live in eternal bliss. I'm not talking about any religious based God who condemns you and has you go to hell. I am instead talking about a God who has universal unconditional love for all human beings.

Only to insecure people wanting confirmation that they can self congratulate themselves for being a human. Again this reeks of a worldview adopted by a spoilt bratty child. Your parents told you you were special and now you need to constantly prove it to yourself. And then throw a tantrum when you realize that we're all mere mortals.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

How? We will all rot, we will all decay. That is basic biology. Regardless of whether or not you believe in a soul or god or both, that's reality. Sorry but nature doesn't think we're special. We think we're special due to our own hubris. To the point where entire religions have sprung forth attempting to literally suppress such a trait, even religions that tell the adherents that they are the "chosen ones" at least call hubris a sin. It's very spoilt brat like way of thinking, if I'm honest. In the natural world we are the ones who gave ourselves participation trophies, as if that somehow makes us winners.


Only to insecure people wanting confirmation that they can self congratulate themselves for being a human. Again this reeks of a worldview adopted by a spoilt bratty child. Your parents told you you were special and now you need to constantly prove it to yourself. And then throw a tantrum when you realize that we're all mere mortals.

Special from a personal value standpoint. I think that is a given. If you are a very kind and respectful person, then I think it is obvious to say that you are a special (great and beautiful) person. But where that value all gets taken away is when the point I have made gets introduced and clashes with this value and reduces it to nothing more than the type of value that transient materialistic things have which would be things that are forever gone once they rot and decay away.

 

[Curious George]

Special from a personal value standpoint. I think that is a given. If you are a very kind and respectful person, then I think it is obvious to say that you are a special (great and beautiful) person. But where that value all gets taken away is when the point I have made gets introduced and clashes with this value and reduces it to nothing more than the type of value that transient materialistic things have which would be things that are forever gone once they rot and decay away.

Except our conscious acts continue. I am not going to say that we are more or less beautiful than any other working part of the system. But we, humans, can be appreciated in our humanity as well. You will consciously act with others and things, these acts will echo long after you are gone. Each one of us contributing our own echoes into what seems a cacophony we call Life, which far exceeds any life. If you zoom in to that child of whom you spoke, you can find beauty, if you zoom out to all of humanity you can find beauty, and if you zoom out even further to where humanity is just one echo in a multitude of echoes we call Existence you can find beauty. It is easy to lose focus with the complexity of this symphony. But no more is needed to find harmony. It is there, you just have to listen well.

 

[SomeRandom]

Special from a personal value standpoint. I think that is a given. If you are a very kind and respectful person, then I think it is obvious to say that you are a special (great and beautiful) person. But where that value all gets taken away is when the point I have made gets introduced and clashes with this value and reduces it to nothing more than the type of value that transient materialistic things have which would be things that are forever gone once they rot and decay away.

Value is always subjective. One values their family and friends more than the randos one passes on the street, generally speaking. One values one's children more than say one's friends, but that's mainly due to instinct.
None of that naturally goes with the idea that they are valueless because they will rot. Such a viewpoint is shortsighted and only looks at the destination. But life is about the journey. Death is the destination.