I have a question about use of niqab and corona face mask.

[stvdv]

I was thinking of the western women, but it doesn't include all of them nor exclude everyone else.

The world would be a more loving and peaceful place if women were not behaving like you described

 

[stvdv]

Now you can understand the backlash about removing rebel flag symbols.

Yes, I suppose when you consider that it represents the religion of White Supremacy, as a religious symbol for the KKK, to require the Confederate flag be banned, would be to a Klansman or Neo Nazi, what asking a Muslim woman to remove her face covering would be like. It's an attack on a symbol of their religious faith.

 

[stvdv]

Well of course I don't agree with any such interactions, and I would never do so, but we can't put it simply down to fear of another culture.

Often it is about the erosion of an existing culture/ways of life and such, and one can see examples of this in many cities (especially in the UK and no doubt in many parts of Europe), where the population has shifted over a few decades - sometimes to become more diverse (and usually all the better for such) but often to see an existing culture replaced by, to others, a foreign one - and the niqab/burqa is often seen as a symbol of such. That is, the newcomers not integrating but just taking over. Why wouldn't the original inhabitants feel a little aggrieved about losing what they might have grown up with?

Maybe they fear the unknown?

I think that is not what it is what @Mock Turtle describes. There is nothing wrong with protecting your own country and culture, it's good IMO
Humans do learn from the past, and in the past it occasionally did happen that countries invaded others and imposed on others their stuff

In this context I do remember a Muslim women 35 years ago, telling me "Dutchmen are weak, in 20 years Holland is ours
So, indeed there are people, even women (I was surprised hearing a woman talk like that 35 years ago), who think this way
And in the same way there are Western people who would love to conquer the world (US has a few nukes, not just for decoration)

It's not always "just fear".From experience we know it takes only 1 Hitler to mess up the whole world.
So, being precautious is common sense, not just fear.

 

[BSM1]

Wasn't endorsing, just elaborating.

 

[stvdv]

Wasn't endorsing, just elaborating.

That is what I assumed. Humans just don't like it, when others take "part of their life" away, even, or maybe even more, the "bad guys"

 

[BSM1]

That is what I assumed. Humans just don't like it, when others take "part of their life" away, even, or maybe even more, the "bad guys"

Understood.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

I think that is not what it is what @Mock Turtle describes. There is nothing wrong with protecting your own country and culture, it's good IMO
Humans do learn from the past, and in the past it occasionally did happen that countries invaded others and imposed on others their stuff

In this context I do remember a Muslim women 35 years ago, telling me "Dutchmen are weak, in 20 years Holland is ours
So, indeed there are people, even women (I was surprised hearing a woman talk like that 35 years ago), who think this way
And in the same way there are Western people who would love to conquer the world (US has a few nukes, not just for decoration)

It's not always "just fear".From experience we know it takes only 1 Hitler to mess up the whole world.
So, being precautious is common sense, not just fear.

I think Westerners have high potential of being a danger to themselves. Not everybody can deal with all those individual freedoms and privileges in a mature and considerate way. And because Westerners are used to so much freedom, they are the ones who are the quickest to feel that they are being oppressed, making it harder for governments to make decisions that are wise AND pleasant for the people.

 

[Cooky]

All I hear is: I live in a very sick society, a very very sick society.

 

[firedragon]

What/who are cognitive bias? The Norwegian man or the Muslim woman?

The man. You can call it a correspondence bias if you wish.

 

[firedragon]

I think that is not what it is what @Mock Turtle describes. There is nothing wrong with protecting your own country and culture, it's good IMO
Humans do learn from the past, and in the past it occasionally did happen that countries invaded others and imposed on others their stuff

In this context I do remember a Muslim women 35 years ago, telling me "Dutchmen are weak, in 20 years Holland is ours
So, indeed there are people, even women (I was surprised hearing a woman talk like that 35 years ago), who think this way
And in the same way there are Western people who would love to conquer the world (US has a few nukes, not just for decoration)

It's not always "just fear".From experience we know it takes only 1 Hitler to mess up the whole world.
So, being precautious is common sense, not just fear.

Hmm. So you are saying that because one woman said something 35 years ago you have built up some kind of perception about all?

Let me just give an example. I know of a terrorist, a mastermind who basically fathered the suicide belt. He is dead now, but just before he was killed a ship from the west, a well known country was parked in the bay waiting to rescue this terrorist if he gets a chance to run.

What kind of perception do you think you should have about this country who tried to rescue this terrorist? This is not just some woman's words, this is direct and deliberate action. What do you think?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You still don't think women dress up because they want men to look at them? How much evidence do you need?

Probably as much as for why Muslim females might wear a burqa or niqab and not being influenced by any males. Many females apparently wear what they wear for different reasons and I am not the one to impose my beliefs as to why they might do so.

 

[stvdv]

Hmm. So you are saying that because one woman said something 35 years ago you have built up some kind of perception about all?

I only said "So, indeed there are people, even women (I was surprised hearing a woman talk like that 35 years ago), who think this way"
That is all I said, no need to read more into it.

Let me just give an example. I know of a terrorist, a mastermind who basically fathered the suicide belt. He is dead now, but just before he was killed a ship from the west, a well known country was parked in the bay waiting to rescue this terrorist if he gets a chance to run.

What kind of perception do you think you should have about this country who tried to rescue this terrorist? This is not just some woman's words, this is direct and deliberate action. What do you think?

I think that the conspiracy theories are not half as bad as reality. Many people in high places do not always do nice things, but cover up nicely.

 

[firedragon]

I think that the conspiracy theories are not half as bad as reality. Many people in high places do not always do nice things, but cover up nicely.

How did you decide that was a "conspiracy theory"? Did you make that assumption based on personal experience thinking all of these things everyone says are all conspiracy theories or do you know exactly which incident I am talking about?

 

[Piculet]

Probably as much as for why Muslim females might wear a burqa or niqab and not being influenced by any males. Many females apparently wear what they wear for different reasons and I am not the one to impose my beliefs as to why they might do so.

The difference is that the women I talk about do not follow Islam while the women you talk about do.

 

[stvdv]

How did you decide that was a "conspiracy theory"? Did you make that assumption based on personal experience thinking all of these things everyone says are all conspiracy theories or do you know exactly which incident I am talking about?

I already added "before misinterpreting my words think twice", but deleted it

I believe your story, and I even remember reading about it, or about something similar

I only said:
"I think that the conspiracy theories are not half as bad as reality. Many people in high places do not always do nice things, but cover up nicely."

And I just meant that. There was not even 1 thought that I thought your story would be conspiracy
I only said it this way to confirm what you said, that I believe that reality is really bad, and that we (the public) do not even know about most of it

 

[Mock Turtle]

The difference is that the women I talk about do not follow Islam while the women you talk about do.

Hardly, I was talking about both, and not knowing as to why either wore what they wear. Not think Muslim females might be pressured into wearing what they wear just as much as others have freedoms to wear what they wear? Both might be free, but the Muslims possibly feel more pressure to conform (in some societies) than females in others where you apparently ascribe motives that might not exist - at least for all.

 

[firedragon]

I already added "before misinterpreting my words think twice", but deleted it

I believe your story, and I even remember reading about it, or about something similar

I only said:
"I think that the conspiracy theories are not half as bad as reality. Many people in high places do not always do nice things, but cover up nicely."

And I just meant that. There was not even 1 thought that I thought your story would be conspiracy
I only said it this way to confirm what you said, that I believe that reality is really bad, and that we (the public) do not even know about most of it

Okay. If I misunderstood you, I apologise profusely.

The issue I have with this world is that most of us make generalisations based on an anecdotal experience. This is actually simple sociology. I just didnt name people in my example of this "terrorist" I spoke of, but he was an atheist and he used Christianity to motivate his son to become what he was, yet he used other religions t motivate the rest of his clan, and he used Leninism as the foundation he communicated using it as a protocol. I would say that's one hell of an achievement, and it shows how one could use whatever tool they have including atheism, Leninism, religion, and many other things for their cause. They murdered so many they are more dangerous than the current day ISIS but of course most people don't know about them because they have not studied the subject. And I am not talking about some superficial situation, this is real.

You can not make any kind of generalisation based on any of this. Zilch. That was my whole thesis I meant to communicate.

 

[firedragon]

Would you prefer a society where gay people are executed in public, where petty thievery is punished with amputation of opposite hands and feet and where apostates are beheaded?

Look at the health indexes of secular countries where freedom is valued and compare them with islamic theocracies.

Since when? You mean currently? What about the future? How do you predict which country will be what in the future?

Lets say you take 2020 statistics to provide a general statement about health of people in a theocracy as you say, is it because its convenient? No person with any kind of educated mind will do that kind of fallacious analysis. Even in business you dont. You have to make a historical analysis to strategise for tomorrow. So now what you will do is cherry pick the history you want to use in order to procreate your agenda.

Lets see if you could take a 2000 year analysis to propagate your thesis. You will fail miserably.

 

[firedragon]

Hardly, I was talking about both, and not knowing as to why either wore what they wear. Not think Muslim females might be pressured into wearing what they wear just as much as others have freedoms to wear what they wear? Both might be free, but the Muslims possibly feel more pressure to conform (in some societies) than females in others where you apparently ascribe motives that might not exist - at least for all.

True. Some muslim women feel the pressure to wear certain dresses to be "in with society". This social pressure is prevalent through out the world in all societies. The problem is you are thinking form your focal point, not broadly.

You are using words like "possibly" because you don't really know and I understand that. Some women are pressured, but some are not. There are many women who have just become a Muslim and taken extremely secluded type of clothing suddenly without any kind of pleasure whatsoever. The majority of Muslim women I have met in my life are dressing the way they please, and some of them just pleases to wear very conservative attire. I know families where the mother dresses like a Hollywood movie star in tight jeans and shirt etc while the daughter has only her hands and face to show. Many times.

Travel the world and speak to people.

 

[Mock Turtle]

True. Some muslim women feel the pressure to wear certain dresses to be "in with society". This social pressure is prevalent through out the world in all societies. The problem is you are thinking form your focal point, not broadly.

You are using words like "possibly" because you don't really know and I understand that. Some women are pressured, but some are not. There are many women who have just become a Muslim and taken extremely secluded type of clothing suddenly without any kind of pleasure whatsoever. The majority of Muslim women I have met in my life are dressing the way they please, and some of them just pleases to wear very conservative attire. I know families where the mother dresses like a Hollywood movie star in tight jeans and shirt etc while the daughter has only her hands and face to show. Many times.

Travel the world and speak to people.

Well the issue was, that @Piculet did seem to assume to know why most females wore what they wore (to attract males, for example), and I was pointing out a similar presumption. I'm not claiming anything, other than the fact that many Muslims in countries where there doesn't seem to be any pressure to wear whatever wear what they want, whereas if we look at those countries where such things as the niqab and burqa are worn more don't seem to have such freedoms.