TruBeauty100
Mandii
If you feel the Bible is so corrupted, than why do you quote Deut 18:18 and John 16:13 as uncorrupted prophecies of Muhammads comment in the sixth century AD?:cross:
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I have a question for every Muslim about Credibility
- Thread starter TruBeauty100
- Start date
301ouncer
Well-Known Member
Greeting tru,
We believe in the original Gospel of Jesus pbuh. The untouched gospel. Today there is no single true unchanged gospel on the face of this earth. Even some Christians theologians would agree with me. Most were lost because of the medium used to copy the gosples. The medium Parprus was unreliable.
Now to your question.
We look at the current gospels to see if there any indications of foretold prophecies of Messanger Muhammed pbuh. We also look for any speech of Jesus pbuh that is MONOLITHIC in essence. We believe in Jesus pbuh Message as a whole corrupt or uncorrupt versions of his gospel. We have his original statements in the Quran and that is really enough for us to believe of his uncorrupted speech.
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301ouncer
Well-Known Member
Just for you to contemplate on the Unitarian Christains and a small background history. There were very known Scholars that believed just like muslims in Jesus being a Messanger of GOD and not SON of GOD. They completely with evidence disputed Trinity in the conference of Necea. They were brutely Killed. I will also present you with a chart that will clearfy my position on these beautifull men of Unitarian Christians of 182 CE.
Historical evidence show without a shadow of a doubt that christainity of old is completely different to christianity of today.
From the conference of Necea, to the killing of Unitarian Christains whom advocated the true teachings of Jesus pbuh.
The True Maryters of Unitarian Christians Since 185CE.
Many brilliant scholars and leaders of the Unitarian Christians were condemned, tortured, and even burned alive in a very slow and drawn-out manner. Their works and books were burned. Only some of these men are:
FULL NAME: Arius Amazigh (250-336 CE):
Next we come to the famous disciple of Lucian viz Arius (250-336 C.E.) He was a Libyan by birth. Peter Bishop of Alexandria ordained him a Deacon but later excommunicated him. Achilles the successor of Peter again ordained Arius as priest. Alexander the next Bishop of Alexandria once again excommunicated him.
Arius however had gathered such a large following that he became a headache for the Church. If kept out of Church he could be a great danger to her but he could not be accommodated within the Church as he wanted to establish the unity and simplicity of the Eternal God. He believed that how so ever much Christ may surpass other created beings he himself was not of the same substance as God. He was as human being as any other man.
The teaching of Arius spread like wild fire and shook the very foundation of the Pauline Church. The controversy that was simmering for three hundred years suddenly became a conflagration. No man dared to oppose the organized Church but Arius did,and remained a headache for her whether he was ordained a priest or was excommunicated. During this time two events changed the history of Europe.
The day Arius was scheduled to visit the Cathedral of Constantinople in triumph, he died suddenly. The Church called it a miracle. The Emperor Constentine knew it was a murder. He banished Athanasius and two other Bishops. The Emperor then formally accepted Christianity and was baptized by an Arian Bishop.
FULL NAME: Lucian Samosata (died 312 CE):
We notice that up to the 4th century C.E. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him. Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially. Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 C.E
FULL NAME: Michael Servetus (1511-1553 CE)
Servetus was very argumentative and stubborn, and he became involved in the bitter religious controversies that divided Europe. He went to Switzerland with Quintana, but then left in 1530 and moved to Strasbourg, France, where, at the age of 20, he published a book, De trinitatis erroribus, about the errors of believing in the Trinity of the father, son, and holy ghost. His book was condemned by Catholics and Protestants, and it was banned in Strasbourg.
Servetus returned to Switzerland, published a second scandalous book on the Trinity, and was forced to leave the country. He changed his name to Michel deVilleneuve, moved to France, and eventually settled in Lyons, where he worked as an editor and proofreader. He edited many books, including medical textsand several editions of the Bible.
When Servetus published Christianismi restitutio, he was still livingunder the name Michel de Villeneuve. After the book came out, someone recognized who the author really was, and Servetus was arrested in Lyons. He escapedthree days later and after hiding out for several months, he decided to go to Italy. Enroute to Italy, he traveled through Geneva, Switzerland, where hewas known and recognized. He was arrested, but this time, he was unable to escape. He was accused and convicted of heresy, which carried the death penalty. On October 27, 1553, his executioners placed a crown of leaves and straw onhis head, tied a copy of his last book to his arm, and burned him at the stake in Champel, Switzerland. In his last words, Servetus asked Jesus to have pity on him.
FULL NAME: Origen Adamantius, c. 185–254 (185-254 CE):
the hetero-orthodox teachings of Origen, and especially some more extreme views of those who claimed to be his followers, were declared anathema by a local council in Constantinople 545, and then an ecumenical council (Fifth Ecumenical Council) pronounced "15 anathemas" against Origen in 553.
Origen's conception of God is apophatic—God is a perfect unity, invisible and incorporeal, transcending all things material, and therefore inconceivable and incomprehensible. He is likewise unchangeable, and transcends space and time.
(1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation. (2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body. (3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul. (4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures. (5) There is no recollection of previous lives.
The anathema against him in his person, declaring him (among others) a heretic, reads as follows:
If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.
As a result of this condemnation, the writings of Origen supporting his teachings in these areas were destroyed. They were either outright destroyed, or they were translated with the appropriate adjustments to eliminate conflict with orthodox Christian doctrine. Therefore, little direct evidence remains to fully confirm or disprove Origen’s support of the nine points of anathema against him.
In his Comment on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a sixth century Latin translation, it is written: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures".
Here is a chart to make it slightly simpler to understand:
Oh I can not attach PIC in this forum.Oh I can not paste a pic till I posted 15 posts or more. Maybe when I have enough posts will post it. Really interesting chart
Historical evidence show without a shadow of a doubt that christainity of old is completely different to christianity of today.
From the conference of Necea, to the killing of Unitarian Christains whom advocated the true teachings of Jesus pbuh.
The True Maryters of Unitarian Christians Since 185CE.
Many brilliant scholars and leaders of the Unitarian Christians were condemned, tortured, and even burned alive in a very slow and drawn-out manner. Their works and books were burned. Only some of these men are:
FULL NAME: Arius Amazigh (250-336 CE):
Next we come to the famous disciple of Lucian viz Arius (250-336 C.E.) He was a Libyan by birth. Peter Bishop of Alexandria ordained him a Deacon but later excommunicated him. Achilles the successor of Peter again ordained Arius as priest. Alexander the next Bishop of Alexandria once again excommunicated him.
Arius however had gathered such a large following that he became a headache for the Church. If kept out of Church he could be a great danger to her but he could not be accommodated within the Church as he wanted to establish the unity and simplicity of the Eternal God. He believed that how so ever much Christ may surpass other created beings he himself was not of the same substance as God. He was as human being as any other man.
The teaching of Arius spread like wild fire and shook the very foundation of the Pauline Church. The controversy that was simmering for three hundred years suddenly became a conflagration. No man dared to oppose the organized Church but Arius did,and remained a headache for her whether he was ordained a priest or was excommunicated. During this time two events changed the history of Europe.
The day Arius was scheduled to visit the Cathedral of Constantinople in triumph, he died suddenly. The Church called it a miracle. The Emperor Constentine knew it was a murder. He banished Athanasius and two other Bishops. The Emperor then formally accepted Christianity and was baptized by an Arian Bishop.
FULL NAME: Lucian Samosata (died 312 CE):
We notice that up to the 4th century C.E. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him. Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially. Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 C.E
FULL NAME: Michael Servetus (1511-1553 CE)
Servetus was very argumentative and stubborn, and he became involved in the bitter religious controversies that divided Europe. He went to Switzerland with Quintana, but then left in 1530 and moved to Strasbourg, France, where, at the age of 20, he published a book, De trinitatis erroribus, about the errors of believing in the Trinity of the father, son, and holy ghost. His book was condemned by Catholics and Protestants, and it was banned in Strasbourg.
Servetus returned to Switzerland, published a second scandalous book on the Trinity, and was forced to leave the country. He changed his name to Michel deVilleneuve, moved to France, and eventually settled in Lyons, where he worked as an editor and proofreader. He edited many books, including medical textsand several editions of the Bible.
When Servetus published Christianismi restitutio, he was still livingunder the name Michel de Villeneuve. After the book came out, someone recognized who the author really was, and Servetus was arrested in Lyons. He escapedthree days later and after hiding out for several months, he decided to go to Italy. Enroute to Italy, he traveled through Geneva, Switzerland, where hewas known and recognized. He was arrested, but this time, he was unable to escape. He was accused and convicted of heresy, which carried the death penalty. On October 27, 1553, his executioners placed a crown of leaves and straw onhis head, tied a copy of his last book to his arm, and burned him at the stake in Champel, Switzerland. In his last words, Servetus asked Jesus to have pity on him.
FULL NAME: Origen Adamantius, c. 185–254 (185-254 CE):
the hetero-orthodox teachings of Origen, and especially some more extreme views of those who claimed to be his followers, were declared anathema by a local council in Constantinople 545, and then an ecumenical council (Fifth Ecumenical Council) pronounced "15 anathemas" against Origen in 553.
Origen's conception of God is apophatic—God is a perfect unity, invisible and incorporeal, transcending all things material, and therefore inconceivable and incomprehensible. He is likewise unchangeable, and transcends space and time.
(1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation. (2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body. (3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul. (4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures. (5) There is no recollection of previous lives.
The anathema against him in his person, declaring him (among others) a heretic, reads as follows:
If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.
As a result of this condemnation, the writings of Origen supporting his teachings in these areas were destroyed. They were either outright destroyed, or they were translated with the appropriate adjustments to eliminate conflict with orthodox Christian doctrine. Therefore, little direct evidence remains to fully confirm or disprove Origen’s support of the nine points of anathema against him.
In his Comment on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a sixth century Latin translation, it is written: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures".
Here is a chart to make it slightly simpler to understand:
Oh I can not attach PIC in this forum.Oh I can not paste a pic till I posted 15 posts or more. Maybe when I have enough posts will post it. Really interesting chart
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.lava
Veteran Member
.lava
Veteran Member
hi
when they changed Holy Book of God, they did not write a new one. they simply erased some parts and added sentences. it is not big surprise there are original parts in Bible. though i don't quote any verse from Bible because i believe it should be studied. i knew only one person who did it and he could explain what he knew of Bible beautifully. unfortunately he passed away. there is one more person who was pastor in Vatican and he converted to Islam after reading a Bible that's kept hidden in Vatican. that would be a Bible that does not match with Bible published for masses. it is written in language of Jesus (PBUH) and there are no parts in it like Paul..(sorry i can't recall names of all parts).
301ouncer
Well-Known Member
hi
.
Hi
I understand you and the point you making.What would you say about the Unitarian Christians that live close to jesus's time and had access to oginial Manuscripts and Much more work available to them?
Why were they killed and cruxisfied on the sake while their books strapped around their boodies?
I will answer it. Only because they believed in Jesus being a Messanger of GOD and rejected the Trinity completly.
These beautifull Unitarian christians were some of them antiochs of Alexandria at the hight of christianity with my many followers.
I really hope you read the above post.
PS. Nice talking to you.
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
First of all according to Ibn Taymiya, although only some Muslims accept the textual veracity of the entire Bible, most Muslims will grant the veracity of most of it. Secondly, even if a few Muslims quote from Deut 18:18 and John 16:13, that is their personal view. According to Muslim theology, and for the majority of Muslims, the Quran is sufficient, and there is no need to quote from the Bible. Anyway what matters more for a Muslim (in fact for any religious and righteous person) is not the justifications from scriptures but their actualization through living a good life.
Regards.
Regards.
You are mistaken, the Arians most certainly did not believe as Muslims do.
But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism#Beliefs
301ouncer
Well-Known Member
Hi Mister, I just checked what you typed from the wiki site of the Arian believe and it does not correspond to it. I have many other sources than wikipedia that is Christian sites confirm his disblieve in:
1. Jesus not son of GOD
2. Jesus is not a GOD.
3. Trinity is not part of Jesus's teachings.
Arius was the studend to Lucian and Lucian as I posted above disbelieve in the above also.
This is from Wiki with highlights:
Arius Taught this to his large followers:
"That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God had wished to create us."
And this is from Arius's Teacher Lucian:
FULL NAME: Lucian Samosata (died 312 CE):
We notice that up to the 4th century C.E. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him. Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially. Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 C.E
See you in paradise brothers of Unitrian christianity Arius Amazigh, Lucian Samosata, Origen Adamantius, Michael Servetus. :hearts:
I don't believe all Muslims do this, but regardless, have you never heard of the consistency trap?
It's not about Muslims declaring the Bible to be uncorrupted; it's about manipulating the argument so the psychological pressure to remain consistent with previous statements will push the Christian into conceding the point to the Muslim.
Edit: on second thought, I'd say that since you're employing the consistency trap here, you probably know full well what it is.
Sometimes people move goalposts and Cherrypick,its the same as Muhammed being in the song of Solomon which it clearly isn't.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
You can find the rules in this link, just scroll down a bit
You can find the rules in this link, just scroll down a bit