I have every excuse for not believing in God

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Topic deleted. Refer to my other topic here:

God does not care if I go to hell

 

[bobhikes]

First off I would never speak for others, let them speak for themselves
Second Feel free not to believe in God
Lastly have you investigated any other gods besides the Christian one. Do you know how the universe started? How did life begin? What is consciousness? What is reality? Could a god be involved in any of these. There are as many gods as there are answer's to these questions.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

First off I would never speak for others, let them speak for themselves
Second Feel free not to believe in God
Lastly have you investigated any other gods besides the Christian one. Do you know how the universe started? How did life begin? What is consciousness? What is reality? Could a god be involved in any of these. There are as many gods as there are answer's to these questions.

Yes, I have already researched into all of that and I just have to remain undecided since, from my honest open minded perspective, it is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on and lead nowhere.

 

[George-ananda]

@MattMVS7
Well it is best to go undecided if you truly are. Then the question becomes how to be a happy person with no metaphysical positions.

 

[leibowde84]

First off I would never speak for others, let them speak for themselves
Second Feel free not to believe in God
Lastly have you investigated any other gods besides the Christian one. Do you know how the universe started? How did life begin? What is consciousness? What is reality? Could a god be involved in any of these. There are as many gods as there are answer's to these questions.

Isn't using any God to answer any of these questions merely using the logically fallacious "God of the gaps" argument (using the supernatural to explain what science currently cannot)?

 

[Cobol]

Yes, I have already researched into all of that and I just have to remain undecided since,

How can you be undecided, if you have done research?
If someone claims they have an invisible friend, people call them crazy. Name that invisible friend a deity, and people praise it.

 

[bobhikes]

Isn't using any God to answer any of these questions merely using the logically fallacious "God of the gaps" argument (using the supernatural to explain what science currently cannot)?

I can't prove anything so I can't rule out anything.

This all may be a hologram.
There may be infinite dimensions.
We have Dark matter. Matter we can't see in any way
We have Dark energy, Energy we can't see in any way.

But
We know a God can not exist?

 

[leibowde84]

I can't prove anything so I can't rule out anything.

This all may be a hologram.
There may be infinite dimensions.
We have Dark matter. Matter we can't see in any way
We have Dark energy, Energy we can't see in any way.

But
We know a God can not exist?

No. I would contend that anyone who claims God or gods cannot exist is being unreasonable. But, "atheism" is merely the "lack of belief in the existence of God/gods". Most that I know or have spoken to merely "lack belief" because they have not been convinced of God's existence due to lack of evidence. Even strong atheists that I know who actively believe that God does not exist admit that there is a possibility that they are wrong. Can't say the same about most theists that I know.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

@MattMVS7
Well it is best to go undecided if you truly are. Then the question becomes how to be a happy person with no metaphysical positions.

I am happy since I do at least see great potential in the existence of the afterlife in the studies done by Sam Parnia on the near death experience research as well as the research done by Dean Radin. Like I said, I am undecided, but do see some great potential for the possibility of the soul and the afterlife. I just hope it all doesn't point to Christianity being true.

 

[bobhikes]

No. I would contend that anyone who claims God or gods cannot exist is being unreasonable. But, "atheism" is merely the "lack of belief in the existence of God/gods". Most that I know or have spoken to merely "lack belief" because they have not been convinced of God's existence due to lack of evidence. Even strong atheists that I know who actively believe that God does not exist admit that there is a possibility that they are wrong. Can't say the same about most theists that I know.

I disagree scientists and strong atheists will not even entertain God as a possibility.

Take the placebo effect. It is known that belief very much is a part of the effect. Has anyone tested the various religious beliefs with the effectiveness of the placebo. It could very much be god.

In a few threads now it was mentioned as possibly magic. People practicing an untrained natural magic. We know different people have different success with placebo's are they possibly untrained magicians. Will any scientist prepose a hypothesis.

I know the answer is no because magic and god are problematic.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I disagree scientists and strong atheists will not even entertain God as a possibility.

Take the placebo effect. It is known that belief very much is a part of the effect. Has anyone tested the various religious beliefs with the effectiveness of the placebo. It could very much be god.

In a few threads now it was mentioned as possibly magic. People practicing an untrained natural magic. We know different people have different success with placebo's are they possibly untrained magicians. Will any scientist prepose a hypothesis.

I know the answer is no because magic and god are problematic.

True. A person simply can't make a proper basis for theism upon a foundation of silence and no divine interaction to even say that there are even possibilities that exist.
.
The placebo effect however remains very effective no doubt.

It's a good feeling to be free from such notions when reality as it is, demonstrates that biological and molecular chemistry are responsible for creation. It clearly works for us as human beings without god. :0)

 

[1AOA1]

Lastly have you investigated any other gods besides the Christian one

It's Christianity's, and the life of God is also a part of God, and is God.

There are as many gods as there are answer's to these questions.

Like forgetfulness of troubles and cessation of worries:

"Muses of Olympus, daughters of aegis-bearing Zeus,
whom Mnemosyne mingled with father Kronios and bore
in Pieria, while she was guarding the fields of Eleutheros
to be forgetfulness of troubles and cessation of worries."

And strife, toil, etc

"But hateful Strife bore painful Toil and
Forgetfulness and Famine and tearful Sorrows"

 

[Twilight Hue]

How can you be undecided, if you have done research?
If someone claims they have an invisible friend, people call them crazy. Name that invisible friend a deity, and people praise it.

Being an ex theist and Christian, I actually understand why that stuff comes about.

 

[allfoak]

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense. I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity. The same thing applies to people in other areas of the world who have never heard of a God.

If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?

I am, however, a very open minded person. I am very open minded to what skeptics have to say and also to what believers in the afterlife, God, and the paranormal have to say. The only way to arrive at the truth is through an honest open minded mindset. That is the only right way to do it because any other way would be close minded/irrational.

Christians expect me to believe in the gospel after I have read it. Now that would be close minded to do so. Even if I felt God's presence in my life, that would also be close minded for me to just believe God is real because feelings do not dictate what is true and not true. Feelings are irrational and do not tell you what is true and not true.

I have read the gospel and I don't believe it because there are so many things out there to be open minded to besides just some story in a book of a holy man being crucified on the cross. We have all the claimed evidence out there that is claimed to support Christianity and we also have the claimed evidence on the skeptics' side as well.

I have researched online time and time again with an open mind towards skeptics who claim the paranormal/God evidence to be nonsense and towards believers who claim that the evidence is authentic and that the skeptics are talking nonsense. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate back and forth that just leads nowhere. It is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on between sides of a debate, but lead to no conclusion.

The concept of God and life after death has been a topic debated by scientists and philosophers for ages. I just think it is a bit unrealistic here to expect me to dedicate my entire life into researching into virtually everything that has been debated for ages in order for me to come to the right conclusion when such a conclusion might not even exist. I have researched all I could and I just have to stop here. I have lost interest and I just have to remain undecided on the existence of God and the afterlife.

Also, just because many things seem to all add up to the existence of God and the afterlife and just because these things sound very compelling, that does not make it so. There are plenty of things that add up and sound very compelling to support any other claim out there, but that does not make that claim plausible or true. As a matter of fact, such claims have been proven false despite the fact that they sounded very compelling at the time.

Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.

Lastly, many Christians would tell me that I am blinding myself from God's presence and that I am sinning by doing this open minded research. First off, this presupposes that Christianity is true to being with. How do you expect me to be convinced of that when I have already done all the research I could and am still not convinced? Secondly, doing open minded research is the only way to come to the right conclusion because all other ways are close minded/irrational.

So with all of this being said, if Christianity is true and the Christian God is real, then we are clearly talking an unfair God here. You can clearly see the predicament I am in and not only is it a hopeless predicament where there is no way to convince me God is real, but is also a completely understandable predicament that should be sympathized with. I see absolutely no reason at all to see such a predicament as being worthy of punishment in hell. To think so would be asinine, absurd, cruel, unfair, and daft.

Therefore, the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not. I should not just automatically go to hell simply because I did not believe and did not dedicate my life to someone I did not believe existed in the first place.

Spending so much time explaining why you don't have any good reason to believe in God seems rather silly to me.

 

[George-ananda]

I am happy since I do at least see great potential in the existence of the afterlife in the studies done by Sam Parnia on the near death experience research as well as the research done by Dean Radin. Like I said, I am undecided, but do see some great potential for the possibility of the soul and the afterlife.

But my question was 'Then the question becomes how to be a happy person with no metaphysical positions.' The main thrust of your OP was one of uncertainty. Are you saying you need belief in an afterlife to be happy or can you be happy with perfect uncertainty?

I just hope it all doesn't point to Christianity being true.

Today I read a short and perfect article addressing this point. I think this guy nails it perfectly. He is the Professor of religious studies, California State University, Bakersfield.

The Looming Divorce Between Religion And The Afterlife

 

[Reggie Miller II]

Hello Matt,
If you have every excuse for not believing in a God, then why did you feel the need to start a thread about it? It wouldn't be that you feel that deep down inside you should believe in God that is making you say these things is it?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

God only calls those He wants. If you do not believe, it is not your fault. God has not called you.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Hello Matt,
If you have every excuse for not believing in a God, then why did you feel the need to start a thread about it? It wouldn't be that you feel that deep down inside you should believe in God that is making you say these things is it?

I am open to the possibility of the Christian God and hell being real things. What I am trying to do here is point out how it would truly be unfair, unloving, and unjust for me to go to hell in my predicament. The best I can ever do is research with an open mind. My open mind has lead me to be undecided. So for me to go to hell over some disbelief that I was genuine and honest about would be cruel and unfair.

But my question was 'Then the question becomes how to be a happy person with no metaphysical positions.' The main thrust of your OP was one of uncertainty. Are you saying you need belief in an afterlife to be happy or can you be happy with perfect uncertainty?

I am happy with uncertainty.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense. I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity. The same thing applies to people in other areas of the world who have never heard of a God.
If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?
I am, however, a very open minded person. I am very open minded to what skeptics have to say and also to what believers in the afterlife, God, and the paranormal have to say. The only way to arrive at the truth is through an honest open minded mindset. That is the only right way to do it because any other way would be close minded/irrational.
Christians expect me to believe in the gospel after I have read it. Now that would be close minded to do so. Even if I felt God's presence in my life, that would also be close minded for me to just believe God is real because feelings do not dictate what is true and not true. Feelings are irrational and do not tell you what is true and not true.
I have read the gospel and I don't believe it because there are so many things out there to be open minded to besides just some story in a book of a holy man being crucified on the cross. We have all the claimed evidence out there that is claimed to support Christianity and we also have the claimed evidence on the skeptics' side as well.
I have researched online time and time again with an open mind towards skeptics who claim the paranormal/God evidence to be nonsense and towards believers who claim that the evidence is authentic and that the skeptics are talking nonsense. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate back and forth that just leads nowhere. It is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on between sides of a debate, but lead to no conclusion.
The concept of God and life after death has been a topic debated by scientists and philosophers for ages. I just think it is a bit unrealistic here to expect me to dedicate my entire life into researching into virtually everything that has been debated for ages in order for me to come to the right conclusion when such a conclusion might not even exist. I have researched all I could and I just have to stop here. I have lost interest and I just have to remain undecided on the existence of God and the afterlife.
Also, just because many things seem to all add up to the existence of God and the afterlife and just because these things sound very compelling, that does not make it so. There are plenty of things that add up and sound very compelling to support any other claim out there, but that does not make that claim plausible or true. As a matter of fact, such claims have been proven false despite the fact that they sounded very compelling at the time.
Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.
Lastly, many Christians would tell me that I am blinding myself from God's presence and that I am sinning by doing this open minded research. First off, this presupposes that Christianity is true to being with. How do you expect me to be convinced of that when I have already done all the research I could and am still not convinced? Secondly, doing open minded research is the only way to come to the right conclusion because all other ways are close minded/irrational.
So with all of this being said, if Christianity is true and the Christian God is real, then we are clearly talking an unfair God here. You can clearly see the predicament I am in and not only is it a hopeless predicament where there is no way to convince me God is real, but is also a completely understandable predicament that should be sympathized with. I see absolutely no reason at all to see such a predicament as being worthy of punishment in hell. To think so would be asinine, absurd, cruel, unfair, and daft.
Therefore, the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not. I should not just automatically go to hell simply because I did not believe and did not dedicate my life to someone I did not believe existed in the first place.

Sound to me that you are mixing the teachings of Christendom with the first-century teachings of Christ.
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their theories and philosophies about hell.

The 'Bible's hell' is just mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead:
Does anyone righteous go to hell ?______
The day righteous Jesus' died according to Scripture Jesus went to 'hell' - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
Since Jesus taught unconscious ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14 - then the dead are Not in pain.
They are Not aware of the passing of time as we are Not aware of the passing of time while asleep..
Please note: Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

There is a difference between the ' afterlife ' teaching (more alive at death than before death), and the teaching about the resurrection hope (coming back to life at a future time). That is why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
That future resurrection (restoring back to life) takes place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.

It is good to read the Bible, but since the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is, then we need to study or research the Scriptures by one subject, or one topic, at a time to see what the Bible really teaches.
Trying to make the false teaching of Christendom match Scripture will never line up with Jesus' teachings.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am open to the possibility of the Christian God and hell being real things. What I am trying to do here is point out how it would truly be unfair, unloving, and unjust for me to go to hell in my predicament. The best I can ever do is research with an open mind. My open mind has lead me to be undecided. So for me to go to hell over some disbelief that I was genuine and honest about would be cruel and unfair. I am happy with uncertainty.

It is no wonder you are undecided because trying to make non-biblical teachings as biblical does Not match up.

You are absolutely right, it would be unjust to go to hell....... go to the 'non-biblical myth hell 'of burning forever.
The Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead ( Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13 )
Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures both teach unconscious ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Biblical hell is a real thing. Dead Jesus was in temporary hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
Jesus was Not in flames, but asleep in the temporary grave. Jesus now has keys to unlock hell - Revelation 1:18
There would be No need for Jesus to have keys if he could Not use them.

KJV Bibles translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire.
Who, in their right mind, would even burn a bad dog, yet burn a person.
What was Gehenna but simply a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever.
Nothing in that garbage pit was kept burning forever, but was annihilated ( destroyed forever ).
Just as we would throw something in a burning fireplace and know that item would be gone forever.
As for the wicked they will be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7
We have two (2) choices: repent or perish (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9 - Not burn.

As for biblical hell (temporary grave) it comes to a final end in a symbolic ' second death ' for emptied-out hell.
Enemy death will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 - thus biblical hell (grave) comes to a final end.