I have some deep question about God, help!

[Maximilian]

As far as I am concerned anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a genuine Christian. YMMV.

Even if their beliefs or actions contravene Christ's very own mandates?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm afraid my answer is not going to be very satisfying to you, but here goes...

How does God reveal anything to you personally?

As a Christian, I believe that the Holy Ghost (who is a member of the Godhead) is the means by which God the Father communicates to human beings. There are a lot of things I've been taught over the years (even in my own church) that have not struck a spiritual cord in me. There are a lot of other things I've been taught that fill me spiritually, are satisfying and that resonate with me as true. I believe that when that happens (and it's almost never as some kind of epiphany, but as a conviction that grows over time), it is because God has spoken to me through the Holy Ghost.

How can you know it is God?

I can't. I just have to have faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked first.

You said: Do you understand the repercussions of following false Christs?

Obviously, the repercussion is that one would believe in a false Christ, so one would be misled. Also, if they thought they were following a true Christ and he was actually a false Christ, they would not be looking for the true Christ.

Now you can answer my question:
Do you understand the repercussions of turning away from Christ when He returns?

 

[ratiocinator]

Only the Messengers of God.

I don't find them in the least bit convincing.

Mythical gods are not real gods. That is why they are called mythical. People have believed all kinds of crazy things over time but what “people” have believed over time is irrelevant. There is only One True God. Why would we need more than one God if God is omnipotent and omniscient? Think about it.

Once again, you are assuming that there is a god and basing everything on that. What you aren't doing is giving me any objective or rational reason whatsoever to think you are correct. Why should I think your "messengers" are any different from those people that started the beliefs in what you call "mythical" gods?

What indication do you have that my religion has been corrupted?

None. You claimed that god couldn't stop a religion from being corrupted without overriding free will and you also claimed that your religion wasn't corrupted. If an uncorrupted religion can exist now, why couldn't it have done in the past - especially with the help of an omnipotent god?

You are looking at what people do with religion, not at the religion in its pristine form before it becomes corrupted by misinterpretation and made into false doctrines.

You have given no objective or rational reason for me to believe you about these "pristine" versions of religions.

I believe that God exists and there is only one God.

I know. What you haven't done is given me any objective or rational reason to believe you are right.

In order to be convincing, you need to start from the point of view of somebody who sees no reason to think there is a god, and point out why they should take the idea seriously (without starting with your own belief).

 

[Maximilian]

I have no interest in being persuasive.

Which is why you continuously fail to persuade . . .

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm afraid my answer is not going to be very satisfying to you, but here goes...

As a Christian, I believe that the Holy Ghost (who is a member of the Godhead) is the means by which God the Father communicates to human beings. There are a lot of things I've been taught over the years (even in my own church) that have not struck a spiritual cord in me. There are a lot of other things I've been taught that fill me spiritually, are satisfying and that resonate with me as true. I believe that when that happens (and it's almost never as some kind of epiphany, but as a conviction that grows over time), it is because God has spoken to me through the Holy Ghost.

I can't. I just have to have faith.

Thanks. As you probably know, Baha'is do not think that God communicates to anyone directly, except the Manifestations of God (Messengers/Prophets). Even then, God uses the Holy Spirit as a medium of communication.

However, I think we can get guidance from God. Maybe that is what the Holy Spirit does. The problem is discerning if what we think is from God is actually from God or rather from our own mind. As you said, nobody can prove that.

 

[Katzpur]

@ratiocinator, I can't see that @Trailblazer has actually asked you to believe in God or to embrace any religion. It appears to me that she's just answering your questions as clearly and directly as she can. Unless someone here is pushing you to accept their beliefs, I don't know what's behind your constant responses along the line that "you've given no rational reason to believe you're right."

@Maximilian, why don't you just come right out and tell us that the answer you're looking for to your question as to who the "genuine, authentic Christians" are is the Jehovah's Witnesses? You know that's what you want us to say. We know it's what you want us to say. Why keep beating around the bush?

 

[Maximilian]

I believe that Christians are found among all of those groups of people. I don't believe we can stereotype entire groups of people because a few of them have done some truly bad things.

Here's what our Creator, Jehovah God, believes:

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer* share in common* with an unbeliever?

“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah,* ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’” . . . says Jehovah, the Almighty.”" -2 Corinthians 6:14-18

So you see, just as Christ remained apart from all the false religions of his day, all Christians today stand apart from all those who through word or conduct oppose Christ, his teachings, his God or God's holy Word, the Bible.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks. As you probably know, Baha'is do not think that God communicates to anyone directly, except the Manifestations of God (Messengers/Prophets). Even then, God uses the Holy Spirit as a medium of communication.

Our beliefs in that regard probably aren't too far apart, then. We believe that any revelation from God pertaining to the Church as a whole must come through a prophet. In other words, I don't believe He would communicate to me if He were to reveal new doctrine.

However, I think we can get guidance from God. Maybe that is what the Holy Spirit does. The problem is discerning if what we think is from God is actually from God or rather from our own mind. As you said, nobody can prove that.

That's more or less what I believe. I believe He responds to our desire for greater understanding through the Holy Ghost, and confirms truths we have already been taught through the Holy Ghost.

 

[Trailblazer]

A manifestation of god? Which god?

The one true God. There is only one true God, and He does not belong to any one religion. He was revealed in all the true religions.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Katzpur]

Here's what our Creator, Jehovah God, believes:

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer* share in common* with an unbeliever?

“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah,* ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’” . . . says Jehovah, the Almighty.”" -2 Corinthians 6:14-18

So you see, just as Christ remained apart from all the false religions of his day, all Christians today stand apart from all those who through word or conduct oppose Christ, his teachings, his God or God's holy Word, the Bible.

Maximilian, are you proselytizing?

 

[ratiocinator]

@ratiocinator, I can't see that @Trailblazer has actually asked you to believe in God or to embrace any religion. It appears to me that she's just answering your questions as clearly and directly as she can. Unless someone here is pushing you to accept their beliefs, I don't know what's behind your constant responses along the line that "you've given no rational reason to believe you're right."

See the start of our conversation:

God did provide evidence but atheists do not like the evidence God provides and they say "it's not evidence.'
However, the fact that atheists don't like the evidence does not mean it is not evidence.

Evidence is some objective observation or experiment that can be done about which the hypothesis states there will be one outcome and other hypotheses say differently. In other words, what is needed is some aspect of the objective world that would only be true if the god-hypothesis is correct.

So, what is this evidence?

In fact, where is the slightest hint of a reason to take the idea of god(s) at all seriously?

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if their beliefs or actions contravene Christ's very own mandates?

That would certainly eliminate a lot of people, but who is to judge?

Matthew 7 “Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

 

[Katzpur]

See the start of our conversation:

Not all truths can be scientifically tested. It sounds like you're trying to pick a fight a whole lot more than it sounds like @Trailblazer is trying to convince you of anything. Whatever. Knock yourself out.

 

[Katzpur]

Which is why you continuously fail to persuade . . .

LOL! And you've doing a great job at persuading us. The JWs way to convert someone is to just out-argue them. I don't think that's the best way myself. Consider Matthew 16:13-17:

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Of all the Apostles, Peter alone gave Christ the answer He was looking for -- "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus responded to Peter's answer by pointing out that Peter was blessed to know this, not because he had been convinced by any other human being, but because God had revealed it to him. And how would God have done this? Wouldn't you agree that it would have been through the power of the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit? I'm not saying that communication from the Holy Ghost must be accompanied by "a burning in the bosom," but the Holy Ghost does speak to the heart in addition to the mind. If a person is truly desirous of knowing the truth of spiritual things, I believe that God will respond to his sincere prayers for wisdom. The devil certainly has power to masquerade as something that he is not, but God's power is greater. If you don't believe you should trust what the Holy Ghost tells you, do you believe there is a better way to decide what's true and what's not? And if you do believe you should trust what the Holy Ghost tells you, how do you personally recognize that He has spoken to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Maximilian, are you proselytizing?

People can use the Holy Bible to SAY whatever they want to SAY.
Great book, lots of good things in there, but they need to be considered in context and interpreted properly.

Of course I could be wrong, but I do not think God ever intended the Bible to be used to beat people over the head, although it can be used that way if one knows how to pick cherries.

 

[Katzpur]

Here's what our Creator, Jehovah God, believes:

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer* share in common* with an unbeliever?

“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah,* ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’” . . . says Jehovah, the Almighty.”" -2 Corinthians 6:14-18

So you see, just as Christ remained apart from all the false religions of his day, all Christians today stand apart from all those who through word or conduct oppose Christ, his teachings, his God or God's holy Word, the Bible.

Jesus Christ associated with sinners all the time. He connected to them through love and example, not by debate or by judging them as unworthy of His company. Unfortunately, your attitude precludes you from doing the same. You're just too damn good for the rest of us.

When John proudly told Jesus (in Mark 9) that they had seen someone casting out devils in Jesus' name, the "forbad him, because he followeth not us." Jesus responded, "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." The Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a monopoly on good people who love one another and seek to follow Christ. They are not the only "genuine, authentic" Christians. Most of the ones I have run into on this forum are among the most judgmental people I've ever spoken to. That's not very "Christian" as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Our beliefs in that regard probably aren't too far apart, then. We believe that any revelation from God pertaining to the Church as a whole must come through a prophet. In other words, I don't believe He would communicate to me if He were to reveal new doctrine.

Thanks. That is a good way to word it, new doctrine must come through a prophet.

That's more or less what I believe. I believe He responds to our desire for greater understanding through the Holy Ghost, and confirms truths we have already been taught through the Holy Ghost.

I pretty much agree with all that. I just word it a little differently.

Another point is that if our heart is not open we will not get the guidance because God does not force Himself upon anyone.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks. That is a good way to word it, new doctrine must come through a prophet.

I pretty much agree with all that. I just word it a little differently.

Another point is that if our heart is not open we will not get the guidance because God does not force Himself upon anyone.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

.

Thanks, Trailblazer. I find the Baha'i scriptures to be truly beautiful.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks, Trailblazer. I find the Baha'i scriptures to be truly beautiful.

As I do the Gospels.