I lack belief that the universe is without gods

[Milton Platt]

Your right, there is no evidence for claims that something does not exist, it isn't very practical. What science has evidence for is a beginning requiring an enourmously mind boggling amount of energy, practically infinite and likely timeless at inception, just appearing out of nowhere, and a refusal to label it god.

Why would you label it god??????
Nobody said the big bang came from nowhere.... nobody knows

 

[Yerda]

For example, if we took a common argument like the first cause, and showed me how we could bring a universe from nothing without god, that would be a point in favor.

Would an argument that shows us that we don't need a first cause count?

 

[Yerda]

@1137

Believing things without evidence is foolish. There is no evidence that anything resembling god(s) exists. There is evidence that the universe exists. Therefore, it is foolish to believe that the universe cannot exist without god(s).

Is that the kind of thing you are looking for?

 

[Milton Platt]

To me it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that the universe could exist as is without god(s). Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

What convincing arguements have you seen for the existence of a god?

 

[Milton Platt]

Would an argument that shows us that we don't need a first cause count?

The only way a first cause argument works is if you use special pleading for your first cause, otherwise you have infinite regression. If a god can exist without a cause, why can't a universe?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To me it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that the universe could exist as is without god(s). Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

Its like having a blank paper and we are both looking. You say, "I cant understand how this stick figure came about without an artist." And, while you and your opposite are talking about the artist and why he doesnt exist or he does and evidence, I ask

"Where is the stick figure?"

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What lead you to believe there are god/s in the first place?
How did you come to that conclusion?

A tree, a baby, and a start shows a plant, a human, and a ball of heat. We interpet things to make them meaningful to us.

Once you ask a question "I believe, why dont you..." then we have to have a common set of criteria or evidence so we can anaylze a believers or disbelievers laim.

Until then, where is the stick figure?

 

[idav]

Why would you label it god??????
Nobody said the big bang came from nowhere.... nobody knows

Cause it fits the bill, it's the beginning and is astronomically powerful and beyond time, that is till time somehow popped into existence.

Mysterious is it now, that doesn't help an atheist with evidence.

 

[Fool]

What I'm saying is the unit used to measure space, in this case the inch, is arbitrary. The point being you can define God however you want. If you want to define God as a pencil, you can carry God around in your pocket, Take God out whenever you want to look at him. You define God as invisible, that's going to be more difficult.

Some define God as love. Love exists, so God exists. God as a feeling, God as a supernatural entity. You define God and decide how to measure God's existence.

you can't control, what you can't measure(define). you can't profit from what you can't personalize.

 

[Falvlun]

You said:"I lack belief that the universe is without gods," and a double negative, "lack" plus "without" = a positive. IOW your statement says: "I believe that the universe is with gods."
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No, that's not how this works. You can be without a "negative" belief just as much as you can be without a "positive" belief.

 

[Nakosis]

you can't control, what you can't measure(define). you can't profit from what you can't personalize.

I think we measure things to give us a false sense of control.

I agree with your second statement. The need to control, the need to profit people can become a slave to their needs.

We measure stuff so we can feel in control. We personalize so we can feel we are profiting.

If you feel the need for these things, who am I to say you shouldn't. I don't particularly feel these needs myself. I find a sense of freedom in that.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm willing to admit the universe exists.
But I don't understand it very well, so anything
I'd say about its origins is pure speculation.

Pretty lame argument, eh?

It's an honest argument. In an argument/discussion you can't go wrong with being honest.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

To me it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that the universe could exist as is without god(s). Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

To me, it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that a garden can exist without fairies.Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

To me it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that the universe could exist as is without god(s). Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

Something I've noticed the debate always boils down to in the end.

naturalism/ materialism /atheism- call it what you will, has to utterly banish any sort of intelligent agent, ID, God from all possible existence, in order to allow chance a 'chance' to win

Not so the other way around, we can utterly grant a multiverse or any mythical spontaneous atheist creation device one can imagine, but if we merely allow the faintest possibility of God existing also, that is still the best explanation.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's an honest argument. In an argument/discussion you can't go wrong with being honest.

Ignorance is even better than honesty.

 

[Falvlun]

Basically, I don't think "God" solves the mystery. If you can't conceive how the Universe could poof into existence without God, then how can you conceive of a God that poofs into existence either? Something's poofing into existence, or somehow just always existing. Saying it was god rather than the universe doesn't make it make any better sense.

And, at least, we know for sure the universe exists.

 

[Skwim]

No, that's not how this works. You can be without a "negative" belief just as much as you can be without a "positive" belief.

Not saying you can't, but the way English grammar works is that in stating two negatives (a double negative) one is stating a positive.

"Double negatives are two negative words used in the same sentence. Using two negatives turns the thought or sentence into a positive one. Double negatives are not encouraged in English because they are poor grammar and they can be confusing; but, they are sometimes used in song lyrics and informal speech."
source​

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[Falvlun]

Not saying you can't, but the way English grammar works is that in stating two negatives one is stating a positive.

"Double negatives are two negative words used in the same sentence. Using two negatives turns the thought or sentence into a positive one. Double negatives are not encouraged in English because they are poor grammar and they can be confusing; but, they are sometimes used in song lyrics and informal speech."
source​

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Sure, but this forum has made it very clear that people can lack beliefs. How else would you prefer it stated that someone does not hold the "belief that the universe is without gods"?

"I don't believe that the universe is without gods" has the same grammatical issue.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You said:"I lack belief that the universe is without gods," and a double negative, "lack" plus "without" = a positive. IOW your statement says: "I believe that the universe is with gods."
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No, they aren't the same. "I lack belief that the universe is without gods" allows for the possibility of not holding a position on the existence of gods.

Also, regardless of whatever position @1137 personally holds, the claim "the universe is without gods" is one that needs to be defended on its own merits. @1137 not being able or willing to defend the opposite claim doesn't imply that the claim of a godless universe is necessarily true. In that respect, @1137 is completely right in his approach.

So all that is fine... as long as @1137 doesn't try to make a leap from "you can't PROVE gods don't exist" to "gods must exist."

Assuming for the moment that neither the existence or non-existence of gods has been established to a reasonable degree, what we can say is the following:

- what we observe of the universe is consistent with it being godless, as far as we can tell.
- what we observe of the universe is consistent with it having a god or gods, as far as we can tell.
- if gods exist, they do not interact with anything we observe to a measurable degree in any way that can be necessarily attributed to those gods.
- belief in gods is unjustified (since any justification for belief in gods would also serve to establish the falsehood of the idea that gods do not exist).

 

[Twilight Hue]

To me it just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen convincing arguments or evidence that the universe could exist as is without god(s). Does anyone have such arguments and evidence that you can share?

It's pretty straightforward. Molecular and biological chemistry makes the universe possible. . Don't know what to tell you otherwise.

The known periodic table of elements is responsible for everything we see and experience.

If you want to conjure up some gods. Well have fun with it. ;0)

 

[Skwim]

Sure, but this forum has made it very clear that people can lack beliefs. How else would you prefer it stated that someone does not hold the "belief that the universe is without gods"?

I really don't care how anyone states what they mean as long as it's grammatically meaningful and not convoluted.

There's

"I lack belief that the universe is without gods" which is essentially the same as saying "I believe that the universe has gods." (the universe has gods)
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and there's

"I lack the belief that the universe has gods" which is essentially the same as saying "I believe that the universe is without gods." (the universe does not have gods)
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So take your pick. What do you want to get across to the reader?

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