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I need help in clarification

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I like that. Right now, though, I am still trying to understand what panentheism is. It seems abstract. How can I understand better?

Instead of starting with a label or a description of a belief.

Start with you.

Where are you? What do you believe? How do you feel? What do you think?

Find yourself and don't bother about labels.

For a time, I called myself "innominatus", i.e. "no name". Or, in my view, "no label."

Never get stuck on a label, because people interpret and define labels differently. So if you call yourself "blahblahist", someone will think of it differently than you at some point and build strawmen arguments to argue against you. Only hold the labels loosely.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, I wasn't sure how compatible panentheism and a NT biblical event are. Can you explain more how it makes more sense? It is all new to me.
Speaking in tongues is not unique to the NT, even though modern charismatics like to call their's genuine and all other religion's experiences as counterfeit, for some reason. It's religious ecstasy, and leads to deeper states of spiritual connection.

How panentheism makes more sense is because traditional theism places God outside creation, removed and separate from it. Pantheism is the opposite and says God is completely immanent and not transcendent to creation at all. It makes God present in everything, as everything itself. It removes transcendence from God in a 3rd person "it" perspective. Where panentheism works better, I feel, is that it allows God to be both wholly transcendent to creation, and wholly immanent within it. It allows a 2nd person relationship of the holy other, the Thou of a personal 2nd person relationship, and the God is also present within all things, that we can know God through creation as well.

The Trinity doctrine is very much this. Rather than it being some transcendent deity of three co-equal members, it is instead a dynamic outflow into the world, while wholly transcendent to it. The Logos of John 1, is the expression of this transcendent emptiness in subtle form as Manifestation, which was realized in human form as an incarnation of this transcendence. In other words, Emptiness, or Ground of Being, or Source, made known in the flesh. This is both transcendent, and immanent, or panentheistic in nature. From the One to the many, from the many to the One.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I feel so shallow. I gotta get out of the mindset that I've had since 1987. It's hard to do.
Oh, you're not shallow. You have the desire to know. That investigating this didn't come up till now, is simply a matter of the confluence of rivers in our lives. You're asking, you're looking, and that is not shallow.
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
I have been a Christian most of my life. Lately, I've been wanting more, so I have been researching different religions. Having gone back and forth, I am currently interested in panentheism. Here's the thing: When I was a Christian, I had an experience that I attribute to "receiving the holy spirit." I was asleep, then all of a sudden woke up, sat upright in the bed. I then felt the feeling of a "hot wind" going into my belly, and up through the top of my head. I then, for about 5 seconds or so, started saying things in a "language" that I had no control over. I am 99% certain that I wasn't asleep. So I am wondering what that could have been. If it was the "holy spirit," then can I still be have panentheistic views as well? So confused...
Sounds like the Basptism of the Holy Spirit to me. Happened to me on an aircraft carrier in VietMam in 1971 Last for hours it was awsesome.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I have been a Christian most of my life. Lately, I've been wanting more, so I have been researching different religions. Having gone back and forth, I am currently interested in panentheism. Here's the thing: When I was a Christian, I had an experience that I attribute to "receiving the holy spirit." I was asleep, then all of a sudden woke up, sat upright in the bed. I then felt the feeling of a "hot wind" going into my belly, and up through the top of my head. I then, for about 5 seconds or so, started saying things in a "language" that I had no control over. I am 99% certain that I wasn't asleep. So I am wondering what that could have been. If it was the "holy spirit," then can I still be have panentheistic views as well? So confused...

I've had religious experiences both as a Christian, as an atheist, and now as a Naturalistic Panentheist. The reason is that we're connected to this Universe. There's no way around it. We're part of the "All".

I can still speak in tongues and in many different ways. I can sing in tongues too.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I've had religious experiences both as a Christian, as an atheist, and now as a Naturalistic Panentheist. The reason is that we're connected to this Universe. There's no way around it. We're part of the "All".

I can still speak in tongues and in many different ways. I can sing in tongues too.

In my journey from fundamentalist Pentecostal to Gnostic speaking in tongues has been one aspect that has continued all the way through. I still do so every day.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I have been a Christian most of my life. Lately, I've been wanting more, so I have been researching different religions. Having gone back and forth, I am currently interested in panentheism. Here's the thing: When I was a Christian, I had an experience that I attribute to "receiving the holy spirit." I was asleep, then all of a sudden woke up, sat upright in the bed. I then felt the feeling of a "hot wind" going into my belly, and up through the top of my head. I then, for about 5 seconds or so, started saying things in a "language" that I had no control over. I am 99% certain that I wasn't asleep. So I am wondering what that could have been. If it was the "holy spirit," then can I still be have panentheistic views as well? So confused...


The Holy spirits purpose is to motivate people to do Gods will. On the occasion when holy spirit was poured out on Jesus disciples, they could speak in a foreign language to proclaim the good news to people from other lands. It was not 'gibberish' or uncontrolled speech in their case. It was purposeful and understandable to the people they were preaching to.

But sitting in bed with an uncontrollable tongue, and a feeling of wind going through you, imo is the work of demons playing games with you.

:(
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The Holy spirits purpose is to motivate people to do Gods will. On the occasion when holy spirit was poured out on Jesus disciples, they could speak in a foreign language to proclaim the good news to people from other lands. It was not 'gibberish' or uncontrolled speech in their case. It was purposeful and understandable to the people they were preaching to.

Not always according to the Bible
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
But sitting in bed with an uncontrollable tongue, and a feeling of wind going through you, imo is the work of demons playing games with you.

:(
Funny how one Christian can claim glossolalia is the evidence for the Holy Spirit but another Christian claims it's demons playing games. How can demons possess someone filled with the Holy Ghost?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Funny how one Christian can claim glossolalia is the evidence for the Holy Spirit but another Christian claims it's demons playing games. How can demons possess someone filled with the Holy Ghost?

demons are spirits too.... they can cause metaphysical phenomenon too.

So how do you distinguish between Gods holy spirit, and a demons spirit??
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Not always an intelligible language

In scripture, it was always an intelligible language.

In the accounts where people were uncontrollable, these were demons possessed people. Jesus was curing 'the demon possessed' and casting out spirits.

Why would he cast out the holy spirit from anyone? He wouldnt.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
In scripture, it was always an intelligible language.

Really?

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
demons are spirits too.... they can cause metaphysical phenomenon too.

So how do you distinguish between Gods holy spirit, and a demons spirit??

How can demons make you do anything if you have God's spirit in you? Wasn't Jesus accused of the same thing, and he made the statement about a house divided or something? And how can you discern from an external third party view what is to be God's spirit vs demons? Is it up to God to judge or up to christians to judge about other christians?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
In scripture, it was always an intelligible language.
No. If so, why would you need someone to interpret it? If I remember right, Paul said something about the gift of the spirit to interpret. I would have to look it up.

In the accounts where people were uncontrollable, these were demons possessed people. Jesus was curing 'the demon possessed' and casting out spirits.
There's no mention of demon possessed people talking in tongues, as far as I can remember. Do you have a book, chapter, and verse for it?

Why would he cast out the holy spirit from anyone? He wouldnt.
Do those verses say they were talking in tongues?
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
How can demons make you do anything if you have God's spirit in you? Wasn't Jesus accused of the same thing, and he made the statement about a house divided or something? And how can you discern from an external third party view what is to be God's spirit vs demons? Is it up to God to judge or up to christians to judge about other christians?

Indeed identifying the work of the Holy Spirit as demonic is the unforgivable sin. Not something to fool around with.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Sounds like the Basptism of the Holy Spirit to me. Happened to me on an aircraft carrier in VietMam in 1971 Last for hours it was awsesome.

Wow, quite the unique place for it to happen. Hours? Mine was like 3 seconds. lol Thanks for your service!
 
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