I need some help, please

[michel]

I have put this in 'General Religious debates' because I would appreciate feedback from everyone - from Catholics at one extreme, to Atheists at the other end of the continuum, if they wish to comment.


I am confused, upset and litterally mentally grieving because I feel, as usual, 'out on a limb', 'on my own'. I believe myself to be a Christian for reasons which I shall give below.

To me the message of Christianity is, at it's simplest:- follow the ten commandments, recognize that Jesus died so that our sins may be forgiven, believe in God, pledge my soul to him, try to live as sinless a life as is possible and Love and accept everyone as he/she is (Do not Judge).
I believe as follows:-
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
I hope the removal of 'The Catholic Faith' will not upset any Catholics; there are tenets of the Catholic faith that I find I cannot subscribe to. I think Catholics are very Noble, and I admire them for what they believe, but "It is not for me".

O.K, so here I am, a Christian (in my mind); I find there a so many 'Brands' of Christianity that I become completely confused.

There are beliefs I cannot, in conscience, subscribe to. Uppermost those about Homosexuality; that is the sticking point that is like a very sore thumb.

Can I continue to call myself a Christian ? Do I need to dissociate myself from Christianity because of the 'bits' I can't go along with ?

 

[Green Gaia]

I hope the removal of 'The Catholic Faith' will not upset any Catholics; there are tenets of the Catholic faith that I find I cannot subscribe to. I think Catholics are very Noble, and I admire them for what they believe, but "It is not for me".

O.K, so here I am, a Christian (in my mind); I find there a so many 'Brands' of Christianity that I become completely confused.

There are beliefs I cannot, in conscience, subscribe to. Uppermost those about Homosexuality; that is the sticking point that is like a very sore thumb.

Can I continue to call myself a Christian ? Do I need to dissociate myself from Christianity because of the 'bits' I can't go along with ?

Well, I'm not a Christian, but I hope you won't mind me replying.

First, Catholic, as it is used in the Nicene Creed is not referring to the Catholic church as we know it. Catholic means "universal" as in the universal church of the Jesus Christ.

Second, many Christian struggle with the issue of homosexuality and have varying opinions about it. Pretty much universally Christians will say that a homosexual should be treated with love and not hated or turned away. I suggest you talk to some liberal Christians who can tell you better how they reconcile not condemning homosexuality with their faith despite what they may have been taught.

Third, can you continue to call yourself a Christian. I see absolutely no reason why not. From my perspective, being Christian is about your relationship with Jesus and what is in your heart. No one knows what that is except you and your God. If saying, "I'm Christian" you feel describes your faith, then my brother, no one can tell you you are not one. Then they can try, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

... O.K, so here I am, a Christian (in my mind); I find there a so many 'Brands' of Christianity that I become completely confused...

Trust me when I say that you are not alone. When I tell people which church I attend, many ask 'That's one of them non-denominational church, huh?':banghead3 Then I tell them Disciples of Christ is the name of our denomination and some of the things in which we believe, many of them nod their heads and maybe say 'Cool.'

Take baptism....some sprinkle water on your head, while some dunk you completely. Some churches have communion every service, others only do it on special occasions. Some Christian churches do not allow women to conduct service while others do. IMHO, some people get so caught up in the manmade differences in faiths and churches that they lose sight of what is important about their faith.

... There are beliefs I cannot, in conscience, subscribe to. Uppermost those about Homosexuality; that is the sticking point that is like a very sore thumb...

Not all 'brands' of Christianity condemn homosexuality or even consider it a sin. Some say whether it's a sin or not is between you and God.

... Can I continue to call myself a Christian ? Do I need to dissociate myself from Christianity because of the 'bits' I can't go along with ?

As long as you believe that God sent his Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of Mankind and you strive to live as He taught us to live, then I would say yes, you are a Christian.:162:

I think that with any belief system you are going find 'bits' and pieces with which you won't agree. I would say the more pressing question is "Do you agree with the major components of that faith?"

Well, you asked for 2 cents worth, and I gave you a pound. I hope some of it is useful.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Of course you can call yourself a Christian

If you look at a all the "brands" of Christianity they differ from each other by a far greater extent than you are yourself.
All liberal Christian thinkers are out on a limb to some extent, but are pleased to be called Christian.

I have put this in 'General Religious debates' because I would appreciate feedback from everyone - from Catholics at one extreme, to Atheists at the other end of the continuum, if they wish to comment.


I am confused, upset and litterally mentally grieving because I feel, as usual, 'out on a limb', 'on my own'. I believe myself to be a Christian for reasons which I shall give below.

To me the message of Christianity is, at it's simplest:- follow the ten commandments, recognize that Jesus died so that our sins may be forgiven, believe in God, pledge my soul to him, try to live as sinless a life as is possible and Love and accept everyone as he/she is (Do not Judge).
No problem with that lot

I believe as follows:-
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. Me,I am not sure about that one. ( I don't believe in hell )
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, ( not sure I believe that one )I believe we return to God.
and life everlasting. ( in God)
I hope the removal of 'The Catholic Faith' will not upset any Catholics; there are tenets of the Catholic faith that I find I cannot subscribe to. I think Catholics are very Noble, and I admire them for what they believe, but "It is not for me".
Catholic in this sense means universal. not just Roman Catholic. There is no need to subscribe to roman Catholic dogma, Though some of it I do believe.
Read up Catholic and also apostolic,( Very basically Universal with a contimuous link to the appostles) Many churches have this link.

O.K, so here I am, a Christian (in my mind) What other way is there ; I find there a so many 'Brands' of Christianity that I become completely confused.

There are beliefs I cannot, in conscience, subscribe to. Uppermost those about Homosexuality; that is the sticking point that is like a very sore thumb.

Can I continue to call myself a Christian ? Do I need to dissociate myself from Christianity because of the 'bits' I can't go along with ?

Of course you don't need to dissociate your self from Christianity.
You just need to find "A Brand" that suits you. Most of the main line Church of England "brands Could accommodate your beliefs. Some of the Right wing Protestant faiths might be too restricting for you. where ever you settle, you will be amongst friends.

Terry
______________________
Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[lilithu]

Hey Michel, namaste.

I don't have the time right now to go into why there are so many kinds of Christianity, but I can understand why it can be confusing. I would suggest that you not get too hung up on finding the denomination that perfectly fits your beliefs, because if you approach it that way, you'll likely never find it. Just know this, if you believe as you say you do, then you are a Christian, no doubt about it. As for denominations, while admittedly there are real differences between most of them, they are not hard fast. I've met Catholics who have no problem with (responsible) abortion and I've met Catholics who think it's the worst crime imaginable. I've met Methodists who think that non-Christians will also be saved, and I've met Methodists who think that non-Christians will be damned to hell for all eternity. I've met Baptists who are very much in favor of the death penalty and I've met Baptists who are very much against it. Don't worry too much about the denomination. Find a church, a congregation, with which you feel comfortable and the rest of that stuff will sort itself out.

 

[Mike182]

hey michel

i go to a vineyard church, mainly because i like the worship their

but as for their teaching, i agree with a lot of it, but there is a lot of it i also do not agree with, and this would be the same in every church

and this is the problem with 'organised' religion, but i think fellowship is important

there are elements with my church that i completely disagree with, for instance (not to make this the topic of debate at all ) baptism. the vineyard movement was originally an american movement, and when it crossed the great ocean, it was translated into british culture, but the baptisms performed ate still typically american style baptisms - how they are done is their is a big "baptism rally" where the pastors get people really psyched up about baptism, and try to recruit and baptise as many people as they possibly can, which is not how i invisage baptism, and it can get a bit more focused on recruiting christians as appose to truely commiting people to God

my point is, you should not expect to find the perfect church here on earth, as i doubt their is such a thing. there will be things about every church you don't agree with, but if you find a congregation in a church that love and accept you despite the fact you dont necercerily agree with all of their workings, then you have found God's love

i can't even remember which hymn this is from, but it just came to mind:
"the church is wherever Gods people are preying!"

you should never feel you are not a christian because you don't feel you fit in at any specific church, even if you walk away from church's all together, but still remain faithful to God, God will love you for your commitment to him through your hardships

i wish i could just give you a big big hug!!!!

i hope i helped, im preying for you

C_P

 

[robtex]

Michel let me give a parallel that may help you. As you are aware there is a very small minority of muslims that become suicide bombers and holy warriors for the prophet Mohammad. As you and I both are well aware, these indivduals are an extreme minority and are not within the normal bounds of that faith. They are the exception not the rule. For someone to say they could not become a muslim because they dissagree with sucide bombings makes equal sense as someone saying they could not become a christian because they value homosexuals as equals with hetrosexuals. There certainly are christians who strongly despise homosexulity and there are those Christians who do not despise homosexuals and yet still there are homosexuals who are in fact Christians!! The fact of the matter is that the beliefs are within the religion themselves and are highly subjective in nature. Their are hundreds of branches of Christianty because of the subjective approach to this religion.

The biggest personal misjustice that theists do to themselves is sacrifce their personal values for that of a dogmatic religion. My personal theory as to why you chose Christianity is the value system you personally have in place is congruent with the teaching attributed to JC and the idea that you equate your religion to love. If this is correct than I would have a much more difficult time seeing how you could dislike your fellow person, irrgardless of sexual orientation, more than I would seeing how you reconcile your faith with homosexuality.

 

[Faint]

Oscar Wilde wrote "to define is to limit" and I think that this applies to Michel, and maybe to anyone of us who posts a specific religion on their profile. For example, I put "hedonism" on mine simply because it comes the closest to describing my outlook on life--a pursuit of pleasure/happiness. I could have just as easily put "non-specified". And maybe that's what Michel is, "non-specified" because he only believes pieces of this religion, and not the religion as a whole. Michel could also probably classify himself as "Satanic" because he might also have beliefs in common with that religion (like if he thinks criminals should be punished, and disagrees with sarificing unwilling victims, for instance).

I've been wondering about this topic for a while. Does a Christian need to accept all of the Bible, or only the parts that he or she likes? I would say that the Bible is not a salad bar--it doesn't make sense to put some of the messages on your plate and reject others. If you believe that any part of the Bible represents God's holy written "truth", than the book should be accepted in it's entirety. If you believe Jesus was the son of some supernatural diety because it is written, you must also accept everything else in that is written. Otherwise you are being unreasonable. Why believe this and not that when the evidence for both is no more than printed word and centuries of hearsay?

 

[Dentonz]

Michel, Jesus said if you love me you will follow my commandments. There are commandments all throughout the bible we must follow. If your a Christian you should study the Bible to recieve your answers. In Paul's letter to the romans ch1 vs23-32. The church at Rome had changed the image of an incorruptable God like unto man. For this reason God gave them up to vile affections. for even there women changed there natural use to that which is against nature. And the men also leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly.......
vs 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, they that commit such things are worthy of death....
This is not saying that if your a homosexual that you should die. Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. 3:23 All have sinned. Me, you, everyone who reads this is worthy of death in and of themselves. But Jesus made the perfect sacrifice so that if we believe in him we can be redeemed and cleansed from our sin and be saved from God's wrath.
You are my brother in Christ. Just remember to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Phillipians 2:12.
Peace in Jesus,
Denton

 

[Dentonz]

I've been wondering about this topic for a while. Does a Christian need to accept all of the Bible, or only the parts that he or she likes? I would say that the Bible is not a salad bar--it doesn't make sense to put some of the messages on your plate and reject others. If you believe that any part of the Bible represents God's holy written "truth", than the book should be accepted in it's entirety. If you believe Jesus was the son of some supernatural diety because it is written, you must also accept everything else in that is written. Otherwise you are being unreasonable. Why believe this and not that when the evidence for both is no more than printed word and centuries of hearsay?

You answered your own question with your underlined statement.

 

[michel]

Thank you all for your replies. Obviously, some of what has been said is what I hoped to hear, while some is not what I hoped to hear.


My main problem with this whole matter is probably a psychological one in that I have trouble in dealing with 'grey areas' - white and black are fine, but the greys are, to me, on that dangerous slope half way between good and bad. It seems that the problem is more than just the perception of the way I see religion; it is more how I see the whole of life, and what I expect of myself - which I have been told before now, that my goals are impossible to achieve, which means I fall short of my target. Having fallen short, I am 'bad' (because of the black and white attitude). I suppose more than anything, I am angry at having to live a life in which I cannot be perfect - which is what I subconsciously expect of myself.

 

[Linus]

Can I continue to call myself a Christian ? Do I need to dissociate myself from Christianity because of the 'bits' I can't go along with ?

As Maize said, I see no reason why you wouldn't call yourself a christian.

You adhere to all of the, in my opinion, "required" tennants of christianity. The fact that there are dogmas or doctrines that you don't think you can accept and practice, only gives more credit to you and your faith. It means you are discerning in what you believe God's word teaches us. And those of us witha sincere faith appreciate that even more.

I feel the same way as you do regarding that. There are certain teachings of various denominations that I refuse to accept. But I have no qulams with calling myself a Christian.

However, you make no mention of baptism. My belief is that you MUST be baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, thus allowing you to have a true relationship with God. I don't know your situation regarding baptism so I can't make a judgment call there.

I hope that helped.

 

[Halcyon]

Mich, if you want my two cents - you believe in all the basics of modern Christianity - you are Christian.

If you want my three cents, look at the sayings of Christ alone, ignore all the rest from Paul etc. Only from the mouth of Jesus will you get his thoughts and his moral values - base yours on his - you can't get any more Christian than that.

 

[michel]

Thank you, Halcyon and Linus - and Linus, yes, I believe in Baptism.


Again, thank you for your helpful comments, both of you.

 

[Quiddity]

Sorry I missed this thread Michel. I will come back and post something more thought out and clear. I really want to give you my input.

Peace
~Victor

 

[Mike182]

Thank you all for your replies. Obviously, some of what has been said is what I hoped to hear, while some is not what I hoped to hear.


My main problem with this whole matter is probably a psychological one in that I have trouble in dealing with 'grey areas' - white and black are fine, but the greys are, to me, on that dangerous slope half way between good and bad. It seems that the problem is more than just the perception of the way I see religion; it is more how I see the whole of life, and what I expect of myself - which I have been told before now, that my goals are impossible to achieve, which means I fall short of my target. Having fallen short, I am 'bad' (because of the black and white attitude). I suppose more than anything, I am angry at having to live a life in which I cannot be perfect - which is what I subconsciously expect of myself.

i hate falling short of what i expect of myself, i hate it down to the ground

i don't think i can say anything you haven't heard before, all i can do is offer you prayer, that in your search you will find clarity

C_P

 

[Fluffy]

If your a Christian you should study the Bible to recieve your answers.

I must admit I personally disagree with this. If you are a Christian who believes that the Bible is the place to go to find answers then you probably should go to the Bible to find answers. If you are a Christian who doesn't believe this then it would be rather silly to do the same thing.

Michel, you will be a Christian in my eyes for as long as you feel that you are one. I suppose the best way to tackle it would be to say, what, out of your beliefs, are not Christian and do they actually bring direct conflict with the teachings of Christianity?

 

[michel]

I must admit I personally disagree with this. If you are a Christian who believes that the Bible is the place to go to find answers then you probably should go to the Bible to find answers. If you are a Christian who doesn't believe this then it would be rather silly to do the same thing.

Michel, you will be a Christian in my eyes for as long as you feel that you are one. I suppose the best way to tackle it would be to say, what, out of your beliefs, are not Christian and do they actually bring direct conflict with the teachings of Christianity?

My beliefs have all the basics of Christianity - but leave out those parts that I think of as being un-Christian (For example - The 'homosexual' problem) - That is what has been eating away at me lately, amongst other lesser points.

One of the other points I have a problem with is the Bible itself - mainly the old testament. To accept the old testament 'as is' in a totally literal sense to me, is an impossible task - timelines are adrift, I cannot accept ID and revoke evolution - that type of 'difference'. Again, I find it hard to say "I accept the New testament but not the old testament' - it feels wrong to do so.

 

[Meesheltx]

Faint...i agree with you. But I have found that it would be completely illogical to accept the bible in its entirity...there are too many contradictions. Of course, if one doesn't believe in logic...I guess they have no problems. But, I think if there is a God like the one described in the bible, he is all-knowing and would obviously know that humans would have to use logic eventually and would inevitably be forced to pick and choose from the bible in order to make sense of things. Maybe its another one of those "choices" the christian god is famous for...God is maybe hoping that people will make the right decisions that fit with their faith?
This is all hypothetical....I'm very much so not a Christian but thats my view on it.

 

[Quiddity]

My beliefs have all the basics of Christianity - but leave out those parts that I think of as being un-Christian (For example - The 'homosexual' problem) - That is what has been eating away at me lately, amongst other lesser points.

One of the other points I have a problem with is the Bible itself - mainly the old testament. To accept the old testament 'as is' in a totally literal sense to me, is an impossible task - timelines are adrift, I cannot accept ID and revoke evolution - that type of 'difference'. Again, I find it hard to say "I accept the New testament but not the old testament' - it feels wrong to do so.

I say this with much respect and charity Michel. Ever consider that emotions is what is clouding you up?

~Victor